The development of Kyp Durron (Rebirth Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediMasterAaron, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "They can't do that. It would be political suicide. "

    It would indeed, but since when has Rogue Squadron cared about that? I get the feeling that Kre'fey commands the loyalties of the fleet, not the Senate, so Anakin could probably count on his help if he persuaded Kre'fey that he definitely did need it.

    SuncrusherX-LOL, so who would be Goose?

    JMA
  2. Lord_Darth_Bob Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 4
    I think one of the things being missed is simply something Corran said before: the root of evil is selfishness. Kyp believes he has the right to enforce HIS belief on others through coercion and any other methods. The means mean nothing to him. Like many horrible people, he believes the ends justify the means. "No civilian caste"? The shapers are soldiers? The priests? They maybe helping the war effort, but does that given them and other noncombatants the right to be killed? Do we ask the police to kill cult leaders without any warning? For the military alone, it might be exceptable. But a Jedi has tremendous power they are responsible for. Slight evils can warp and twist a Jedi through the allure of power. None of them is invulnerable. Kyp IS headed down that road. As long as he believes whatever he thinks, everyone else should follow, he is no better then the Yuuzhan Vong, who believe that they are superior and they have the right to the Galaxy and everyone should submit. The idea that everyone should be answerable to what you think is called "playing God." It has been done here many times. The Catholic Church has the Spanish Inqusitions. The Puritans have the Salem Witch hunts. The Moslems had the Crusades. FORCING others to submit to one's beliefs of right and wrong, what should and should not be done through coercion because one know's they would not cooperate otherwise is wrong for anyone to do. And for a Jedi, the crime of irresponsiblity with one's own power is another crime added to it.
  3. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Fine, next time I get a chance I'll tell Kyp to stop acting irresponsible, and let the Vong take the galaxy and kill everyone. He can run off and live in the Unknown Regions where he never has to bother anybody.
  4. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    GFFA? I've read the books but I'm coming up blank on that one. Pardon my stupidity.
  5. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Galaxy Far Far Away - The Star Wars Galaxy.
  6. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOMEONE KILL ME!!!

    I feel pretty freaking stupid right about now. I was thinking it was some kind of New Republic abbreviation.

    *weeps silently, hanging head in shame*
  7. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    Don't worry bout it. Most people new to thee boards don't know any of the abbreviations.
  8. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    Point taken, but "A Galaxy Far, Far Away?"

    For the love of God, I consider myself a pretty big Star Wars fan, I should have figured that one out. Oh well.
  9. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    ah, another double standard. Kyp is a jedi and has all sorts of rights and resonsibilities to fight and defend, but he has no right to enforce? It's selfish of him to consider himself better than most people? Even when it's been pointed out that he is enhanced and needs to set and example. You can't say he just needs to follow luke, kyp is a jedimaster who's instinct must be trusted without question. If a jedimaster says something needs to be attacked and all the evidence points to the same conclusion, why does it matter that it's kyp? Or that he's selfish? and isn't the love of money the root of all evil?


    wurth or ganner would've been great. wedge is the head dude. It's been a while since I've watched top gun.
  10. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "It would indeed, but since when has Rogue Squadron cared about that? I get the feeling that Kre'fey commands the loyalties of the fleet, not the Senate, so Anakin could probably count on his help if he persuaded Kre'fey that he definitely did need it."

    Maybe but even then he'd oly be able to help once, then he'd be courtmarshaled unless th entire army did rebel against the Senate in which case the NR is done.
  11. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    Has anyone ever made mention of the fact that Luke was not a Jedi Master when he destroyed the Death Star? Here he is in NJO still trying to figure out the true nature of the force and what it means to be a Jedi, he certainly didn't have the mental capacity to weigh it all out in ANH (he was still pretty broken up about not getting those power converters.)

    Kyp, on the other hand, should have known better. I agree with the fact that the worldship had to be destroyed and I'm glad it was, but Kyp overstepped his bounds on this one.
  12. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "I agree with the fact that the worldship had to be destroyed and I'm glad it was,"

    Yeah it did.

    "but Kyp overstepped his bounds on this one."

    How so.


    "Kyp, on the other hand, should have known better"

    Better than to do what? Better than that he shouldn't have been attacking the Vong to defend the galaxy from them. Should he let them win. After all they only seek the extermination of all technology and living beings in the galaxy. You're right: Kyp should know better than to fight back against neings such as that.
  13. Darth-Cartman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 1
    "How so."

    The issue is not whether what was done needed to be done, the issue is whether it was morally appropriate for a Jedi to do so. I don't feel that it is. Even if you argue the point that there were limited civiians (if Vong civilians exist) you still have to deal with the deception. Kyp deceived Jaina and the military into an action that some of them may not have undertaken otherwise.

    While I agree that many of them may have gone ahead and attacked anyway, it was a decision they should have been allowed to make fully informed.

    "Better than to do what? Better than that he shouldn't have been attacking the Vong to defend the galaxy from them. Should he let them win. After all they only seek the extermination of all technology and living beings in the galaxy. You're right: Kyp should know better than to fight back against neings such as that."

    Yoda lays it out in ESB. "Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Kyp, a supposed Jedi Master, should know this, not to mention the fact that he has been reminded time and again by Luke.

    Let me make it clear that none of this makes me happy. I agree with Kyp and sometimes these books piss me off. There are times when I want to just grab Skywalker (and Jacen too) and just beat the crap out of them and say "wake up morons!"
  14. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.""

    Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. You must attack or else even the best defense will do you no good.

    "Kyp deceived Jaina and the military into an action that some of them may not have undertaken otherwise."

    Others have decieved people too. People whom are called heros: Luke, Wedge, Han, Corran, etc. decieved people into doing things. And Kyp only did because like these people he believed that it was the only way to get it done and why did he belive this? Because people never listen to him or do as he suggests. They treat him like he's a cancer.

    "(if Vong civilians exist)"

    If they exist in this galaxy then they exist illegally as they only have planets that they took by force and killed all the living inhabiatants on it and their leaders and warriors shall take the responsibility for putting them in the direct path of war and housing them in a genuine military target, the worldship. If their leaders care so little about them to do that should ours go to such pains as to not attack military targets because civilians are there to save their lives. I don't think so.
  15. Lord_Darth_Bob Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 4
    Tell me, do you also support the wholesale extermination of the Isrealis for immmigrating into Palestine, when others were already living there too? Just because you know they are wrong doesn't give you the right to kill them all.
  16. Lord_Darth_Bob Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 4
    With Luke it was totally different, his training and command of the Force was nearly nonexistant, he wasn't much more responsible for extra power then the average pilot. The Death Star WAS a weapon. It had to destroyed. Of that, there is no doubt. Did the worldship HAVE to be destroyed, particularly through the deception of people who risked their lives on a lie? If the Empire had built a massive colony ship for their most stallwart noncombatant supporters, should the New Republic have obliterated it to aid the war effort? The point is, Kyp doesn't have the right to make a desicion of wether the Yuuzhan Vong deserve to be annhiliated.
  17. skull6 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Was the worldship as big a threat as everyone says?
    I know it would have been armed but probably not as heavily armed as a war ship and it would have escorts but it would not be as heavily garded as a ship womb. Have we even seen worldships used for attacking any thing or are they only for housing.
  18. Lord_Darth_Bob Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2001
    star 4
    They are just massive flying homes/colonizers with some weapons for self-defense. They're never seen fighting. Even Kyp never tried to absurd excuse of rationalizing the worldship's destruction as destroying a warship.
  19. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    What do we know so far about vong warriors?

    let's see, they despise any cowards or noncombatants, anyone who appears weak. They defend what is useful for their purposes and don't care about anything else.

    so...

    A sure victory at yag dhul was called off to defend the shipwomb. That clearly implies that high military value of it.
  20. skull6 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    If buy "it" you mean the shipwomb, yes there is a high military value to it.

    The destruction of the worldship was an embarrassment to the Vong. The worldship was a transport for the Vong in the old worlships.
  21. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    How can you possibly draw a reasonable parallel between the Vong in the GFFA and the Israeli/Palestinian issue? There are distinct and crucial differences between those situations. While both the Israeli's and Palestinians have valid claims to that piece of land since both peoples have at one time lived in that land, the Vong have absolutely no claim to the GFFA except that they are strong enough to take it. Therefore, any Vong in the GFFA have no right to be there and unless they apply for citizenship and distance themselves from teh Vong war-machine, they are out of necessity viewed as enemies, not allies. And Yes, I believe bombing the enemy's supply depots behind the lines as a just extension of prosecuting a war.

    Imagine this. You live in a little Russian hamlet around the 13th century. Without warning, a foreign horde of warriors crossing the Caucasian steppes (which everyone had thoughts impassable) has overrun your town and advanced into mainland Russia. These warriors, lets call them Mongols, have only just cleared a path for the rest of their people, who are now arriving in a great train of oxen and horses. These people, an assortment of Mongol priests and civilians and everything in-between occupy the town which once was yours, and set up shop. After converting the land which had been yours to suit their own purposes, these Mongol 'civilians' begin supporting the further Mongol invasion of Russia and beyond from your land.
    Would you not say it is justified for any surviving Russian force to strike at the Mongol forces occupying this former Russian hamlet, thus denying the furhter Mongol invasion of Russia supplies while also driving Mongols out of Russian territory?
  22. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    <<<lets call them Mongols>>>

    Oh man that cracks me up. Great post. That was a really nice example set outside of Star Wars.
  23. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Did I neglect to mention that the man who drove the Mongols out of Russia, Ivan the Something, is the greatest hero that they have ever had?
  24. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    "the Vong have absolutely no claim to the GFFA except that they are strong enough to take it."

    Technically, I don't know if enough information regarding the origins of the Vong species is known to make such a claim. On the contrary, their language seems to have ties to languages within the GFFA.

    Before people start using that as an excuse, make sure you're certain the Vong have no claim. For all we know, they may have been the original inhabitants of Coruscant. Likewise, for all we don't know, I don't think it's right to make such claims.

    But the reasons (whether or not they have a clear deed/title to the GFFA, etc.) why they have invaded are meaningless. They have attacked, whether rightfully or not. Kyp is well within his rights to defend the galaxy against such an attack.

    If I find out that I actually own the rights to land that someone has been living on for the last thirty years, I can't go infect his wife with a biological weapon, slash his sisters legs, murder all his neighbors, start destroying his property and try to enslave him. The person would be well within his right to defend himself if I tried to do that.
  25. Darth-Thonajon Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Kyp has already fallen to the darkside before, he knows how far he can push it. I'm kind of with Kyp, decisive action to hammer the Vong out, but their defeat will come from Anakin. This will be his test, to see if he will go the same way as his Grandfather, look at what's happening in II and III and Lucas likes parallels, even though he doesn't write the books, they go by his ideas of the Star Wars universe.
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