The development of Kyp Durron (Rebirth Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JediMasterAaron, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. skull6 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    The NR doses not have the right to throw the Vong out of the GFFA. They only have the right to remove the Vong from the planets that they have overrun. If the Vong are defeated and run to open space, find words with no intelligent life and settle on them then the NR would have no right to remove them. This can?t happen now though because the only way the Vong could retreat would be in the worldship that Kyp destroyed.
  2. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    The New Republic has no right to kick the Vong out of the GFFA? How is that? The Vong have usurped New Republic influence and stolen their planets and overrun their territory and enslaved their people, and yet the NR has no right to oust the Vong from territory that the NR has never relinquished claim to? Did France have no right to take back their country from the Germans? What are you saying? The Vong are still a threat to the NR, basing their operations out of NR territory. So, if the NR makes an assault against the Vong to preclude further invasions, and if the assault is actually within NR territory, how is it that the NR has no right to do this?
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Simple put.

    If Kyp is right...

    You find a Colony of Vong raising families...

    Do you massacre them?

    If so then the Holocost, Atrocities done against Northern Ireland families on both sides, and current troubles in Israel are all justified.

    Because it is waging war
  4. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    A Colony of Vong is not a shipyard, my friend. Destroying a valid military target (and any shipyard is a military target because any shipyard can be retrofitted into a military shipyard) is not slaughtering a Vong colony unless the colony is a training ground and staging point for invasions, then the area is gray.
  5. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    An admitted serial killer and racist, never been tried in court but he admits it, finds a vacant lot near your home and decides to live there. Do you do nothing? No, you report him to the authorities and they do whatever it takes. If that means killing him if he resists, so be it.

    peaceful coexistence might only be possible with the shamed ones.
  6. Major_Derek_Klivian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2001
    star 2
    Though the lot actually wasn't vacant- he killed the inhabitants and then decided to live there.
  7. suncrusherX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 3
    and he genetically altered your dog to kill you.
  8. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "Tell me, do you also support the wholesale extermination of the Isrealis for immmigrating into Palestine, when others were already living there too? Just because you know they are wrong doesn't give you the right to kill them all."

    I'm not familiar enough on the topic to be sure. But I would think no because both have a legitimite claim to the land. As far as we know the Vong have none and the Vong have come in shooting destroying several planets. As far as I know no Isrealis have come in shooting up planets. I don't know who is right in this as I was not around when it firdt started and I don't know the whole story. I bet they don't even know who is right for sure it's been goin on so long. The best solution to me would be to just split the land 50 - 50. However, since both parties feel that the land is theirs this will not fly. I really don't know what should be done here. I don't see why they can't live among one another. I'm not very familiar with this topic.

    I can see why GFFA can't live among the Vong. Because the Vong have made it clear that they wish to kill all of them.
  9. Lianna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    In Rebirth, I think Kyp at some point is wrestling with his decision to lie/use Jaina. That's why she was able to sense that he was holding something back from her. As a more experienced Jedi, could very easily have bloced her from sensing him if his conscience were not bothering him. Also, when discovering that she had not told him about the tracking device on his ship Jaina told him that it was not her secret to tell, well remember that he said, neither are mine, understood? I think he was looking for someway to ease his conscience or in someway get her permission not to tell her everything. The conversation that Jaina and Kyp had before meeting with Wedge and Gavin is very telling in how Kyp's character is developing. The problem is that the writers don't let us in on exactly what Kyp is thinking so we really don't know if he is a "good guy" or a "bad guy".

    This leads to confusion. Confusion leads to fear. Fear leads to the Dark Side.
  10. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    Wow, the thread is back! I agree, I think the authors have really kept us in the dark about him as a character. We hear how they, the authors, feel about him, but we don't know about Kyp the person. In VP he is fairly neutral, portrayed as a little arrogant but nothing major. Then MAS shows Kyp, through Corran's eyes, as a really bad guy. I really blame Stackpole for making some many fans hate him. How about, in Balance Point, when Randa mentions Kyp's attempt to hold off the Vong while refugees, it immediately shows Jacen rolling his eyes and stuff. They find ways to present him in a bad light even when he does something good. Wow this post is really rambling, must be time for some sleep.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Actually I've done a 180 on Kyp.

    Listen to Kyp's comments, he has no way of knowing he's destroying a ship that would eradicate the Vong civilian caste since he has no way of knowing the Vong ships are dying.

    He's a vigalante and not a very nice guy and a very bad war leader...

    However he's a hero I think and someone who shouldn't be called a villain.

    Old West Sheriff vs. Luke's Pope
  12. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    Kyp is a villain in every sense of the word. Kyp betrays the very idea of what it means to be a "good" Jedi by deliberately and knowingly killing civilians. And Kyp is not a serendipitous villain - he is a habitual villain. Kyp will betray others at any expense necessary to fulfill his notion of "what needs to be done." He will do it again and again if need be. And despite having blown up a planet before, he will not reconsider the means to his ends.

    He knows what he is doing. He is either a complete moron or a calculating villain. There is no other choice or middle ground.

  13. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    Kyp is a villain in every sense of the word. Kyp betrays the very idea of what it means to be a "good" Jedi by deliberately and knowingly killing civilians. And Kyp is not a serendipitous villain - he is a habitual villain. Kyp will betray others at any expense necessary to fulfill his notion of "what needs to be done." He will do it again and again if need be. And despite having blown up a planet before, he will not reconsider the means to his ends.

    He knows what he is doing. He is either a complete moron or a calculating villain. There is no other choice or middle ground.

  14. -Vergere- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2001
    star 4
    The only thing Kyp Durron does as a character is satiate our desire to do something about this attack - no matter the form it comes in. A Jedi's responsibility is too great for a utilitarian argument. Kyp will never understand that.
  15. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    Oh, now you say we cant argue. Great argument technique :)

    Kyp is very uch a Jedi of old to me. Had the VOng invaded then, I doubt theyd have won


    Kyp betrays the very idea of what it means to be a "good" Jedi by deliberately and knowingly killing civilians.


    He destroyed an empty worldship. Luke has destroyed Star Destroyers full of innocent Mechanics. How can you argue with one but not the other?


    And Kyp is not a serendipitous villain - he is a habitual villain. Kyp will betray others at any expense necessary to fulfill his notion of "what needs to be done." He will do it again and again if need be.

    Prove it. He lied to Jaina to destroy a Worldship that would hamper the NR. Thats it. So, Luke is a habitual darksider who will go evil at any time? He did that once too, so I can say that, right?
  16. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Wow, my thread is back.

    These arguments are getting slightly ridiculous. Kyp supporters are nearly as vehement as Jacen supporters in their belief that he can do no wrong. I'm sorry to come off as harsh, but come on guys...there is nothing new to argue about concerning Kyp. Just let it lie.

    JMA
  17. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    "Kyp supporters are nearly as vehement as Jacen supporters in their belief that he can do no wrong."

    You know thats not true. Most of us admit he's got a huge ego and made a mistake by lying to Jaina. Our problems are with those who think he can do nothing right. There are some people who think everything he does is motivated by evil or ego, and thats not true.

    I've asked this question before and never gotten a response, but I would really like an answer. How is what Kyp did to the Vong "civilians" any different from what Luke and Mara did to all the clones in Mount Tantiss?
  18. ivylore2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 2
    In the Black Fleet Crisis series, Luke has a long discussion with Akanah about his culpability for the deaths of the many people on board the first Death Star. I don't have my book handy, but I think the number was one million and change, many of whom were families of officers, support staff, cleaners - people who had nothing to do with the Empire directly, didn't know what the Death Star was capable of, and only wanted jobs.
    Akanah, a pacifist who follows the tenents of the White Current, accuses him of murder, despite Luke's claims that the Death Star was guilty of, and would have continued, destroying innocent worlds, and his personal relief at knowing he had killed his sisters' tormenters. I thought it was one of the most fascinating reflections of the past, from an entirely different point of view, that we have been given in the EU.
    I think... that perhaps because of his past experience (although I personally think Kyps' actions WERE justified), Luke viewed Kyps' murder of YV civilians as outright murder....
  19. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    It wasn't murder at all. The world ship was empty. It had a few "techs" at the most on it. If any Vong civilians die because of this, it will be the Vong's fault, not Kyp's. What keeps them from putting all the civilians meant for the new worldship on one of their captured planets? Come on, some of you would like us to believe that it was mass murder, but the fact is what he did was merely to inconvenience the Vong, nothing more.
  20. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    Face,

    To be honest, I have yet to see a Kyp supporter say "You know what? He was wrong by lying to Jaina and involving her in something that treads so close to the Dark Side without her consent." In fact, the majority of this thread is loaded with Kyp supporters being extremely defensive and mocking those of us who don't agree with him. I just re-read this whole thing and got extremely tired of the whole thing. THere has to be more productive things we could talk about at this point.

    JMA
  21. Lianna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 4
    Kyp Durron is wrong for lying to Jaina and using her, I'll admit that. I'm a Kyp supporter in that I see redeemableness in his character. He's been through a lot in his life. He has issues. A bad conscience that he is trying to redeem, albeit the wrong way. I feel his lashing out against the Vong is like lashing out against the wrongs that were done to him in the past and his need to keep it from happening in the future.
  22. NarundiJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 6
    I believe as a Jaina fan and a Kyp fan that Kyp was VERY wrong for using Jaina like he did. He should have told her what she was getting herself into. Do I think he's a good person? Not really. Do I think he has a lot of issues? Hellz yeah! Do I think he's just doing what he does for selfish personal glory? No I do not. I think, as seen in Jedi Academy Leviathan, that Kyp's gift with the force seems to be the ability to hear inside his head the tortured souls of those who have died and have had unfinished business. Think about what that gift means to the man who blew up Carida! He's probably waking up every morning with screaming and wailing in his head and it continues until he goes to sleep at night. He probably doesn't get much sleep at all either. So I believe that Kyp is trying to right the wrongs he's caused and he's also trying his hardest to get those darn voices out of his head! I don't necessarily think he's going about it the right way. However, I do believe that eventually, before the NJO kills the poor guy, that he'll somehow "see the errors of his ways" (I put that in quotes because it's obvious that the NJO is making Kyp out to be wrong and Luke out to be right, when the truth is that they're both right AND wrong on some things) and will redeem himself before death.

    Jae Angel

    PS- I also believe that you can't really draw such a direct parallel between our universe and the GFFA. Situations are different, the rules of war might be different, we don't know really.
  23. ivylore2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 2
    Here's a new theory that I think, depending on how the hints in Rebirth are interpreted in the future, is possible.
    Rebirth was laden with innunedos of an attraction between Jaina and Kyp.
    Bearing that in mind, we now have two Jedi's; Kyp, who has used the Darkside in the past - we don't know how much remains in him now, and Jaina; presently driven to the Darkside after her brother's death.
    That gives them a lot more in common, especially given that if she does return to the Lightside, Kyp's offer to take her on as his apprentice may be more meaningful, and her previous predjudices against him may change in light of her own faults.
    I think the Solo-Skywalker clan would go ballistic if anything romantic were to happen between them... nice twist of forbidden love, scandal, shades of the Han/Leia romance.
    Han will curse the day he rescued him from Kessel...
  24. Jarik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2000
    star 4
    "To be honest, I have yet to see a Kyp supporter say "You know what? He was wrong by lying to Jaina and involving her in something that treads so close to the Dark Side without her consent."

    I have said that lying to her was the only thing he did wrong, but that I could forgive him for it. And this darkside stuff is just stupid. The "dark side" is only metaphoric and Kyp isn't doing anything wrong. Look at the link in my sig. for more on the light and darksides.

    "Han will curse the day he rescued him from Kessel..."

    Han's entire family ould pretty much be dead if Kyp stayed on Kessel, so I don't think Han will be doing that if he thinks first.
  25. Face Loran Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 1999
    star 4
    "Face, To be honest, I have yet to see a Kyp supporter say "You know what? He was wrong by lying to Jaina...'"

    Hopefully your not refering to me, because just 3 posts above yours I said I thought Kyp was wrong to lie to Jaina. I cringed along with everyone else when I read that. I want Kyp to be on the same side as Wedge and Luke, because I think he would be more effective. I agree that what he did was not a good way to endear himself to the main body of the New Republic. I just don't think he's evil, or close to the darkside.

    Looking back, with the beauty of hindsight, Jaina shouldn't have been so offended to take part in what she deemed a marginally darkside event. Afterall, one book later she goes to the darkside without any attempt at controlling herself. She's in almost the exact same situation Kyp was in when he accidentally killed his brother. Jaina's lucky a suncrusher wasn't lying around, or she'd be a mass murderer right now, too.
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