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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Artoo-Dion , Sep 14, 2017.

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  1. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I agree, & no, that's not confirmed as a fact at all. I'd say it's likely but that's a guess.
    Well as reported here, Pablo was asked about this & he confirmed that it won't be revealed at least until the trilogy is over. That implies to me that following the ST we'll learn a lot more.
    Where is that stated? I think what's far more likely is that George over 40 years was used to being in charge. His was the final word on everything. He probably couldn't handle being just one voice in a committee. He virtually said as much in several interviews. As for the various comments he has made, it's almost impossible to make sense of it all. On the one hand he says SW is "not about spaceships". It's about family & relationships. On the other hand his fans are pushing the message that he was up in arms about design & aesthetic. Why would that matter though if SW isn't about such trivialities as spaceship design etc? I think this whole situation is far simpler than we imagine. 1: He wasn't used to not getting his own way on everything. 2: Any changes to his ideas would likely have him declare "they threw out my ideas. It's not my story". It's like a painter. Someone tinkers with their piece so therefore it's not their work anymore. Even if a significant part, or even the majority of the work is theirs.
     
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  2. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2002
    Sadly it's the opposite for me. I loved the idea of an aristocratic collector of Sith artifacts, and some of the Kylo concept art I found to be amazingly evocative. The execution, though, just feels watered down to me, both design wise and in terms of characterization that I can take seriously. This really applies to TFA as a whole for me--there's an underlying unique core and edge to the film that sometimes pokes through, but the surface reality feels too safe and bland for my tastes.

    I'm hesitant to "blame" any one person, though, even Abrams. I think his closeness to and love of the material kind of handcuffed him in a way. I think he may have wanted to honor what inspired him so much that he under-utilized his own sensibilities. His Star Trek has a unique character energy, some wildly creative uses of practical effects (the red planet in Into Darkness for example), and a pretty frequent stream of great action set pieces. Overall these two films delivered something of the daringness I wanted from an ST. Will be interesting to see how Abrams handles IX.
     
  3. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 17, 2013
    I honestly think that was done on purpose. Kylo Ren is a noob and a Vader/Sith wanna be. They had to be careful with his appearance. He can't surpass Vader by looking more fearsome, a mistake that I think was made with the final version of Starkiller in the Force Unleashed. That guy looked like something straight out of a nightmare. That's fine for a video game, but it would have been a big problem to make Ren more imposing than Vader. You think people freaked out about how strong Rey was in TFA? Imagine if Ren was more powerful and scarier than Vader.
     
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  4. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002


    I can see some logic to that, although for a fan like me who thinks suited Vader is a bit overrated in terms of being a definitive Star Wars presence, I would rather the creators aim to surpass what came before in this instance. And at the same I think a good antagonist is about more than just being fearsome and nightmarish. Fair enough if Kylo was designed as a character I wasn't supposed to take seriously, but well, I guess that's just not was I was looking for, especially after some concept art set my expectations a certain way.
     
  5. SaintKenobi1322

    SaintKenobi1322 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 17, 2013
    I think about this way: Kylo Ren isn't meant to be any more fully realized as a villain in TFA than Luke Skywalker was a hero in ANH. The potential is there, but they aren't developed yet. We've seen part 1 of Kylo Ren's villain's journey as ANH was Luke's first step as a hero.
     
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  6. rocknroll41

    rocknroll41 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2013
    Bumping this. Can someone answer please? I'm curious to know.
     
  7. Tristan the Trilobite

    Tristan the Trilobite Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2017
    @SaintKenobi
    Fair enough, this is how KyloRen SHOULD have been written. But his character - as all the other characters - is remarkably incongruent with his backgrounds. Kylo is not a noob or beginner? Yes seemingly considering how incompetently he acts.
    • But according to new canon he is around 30 and has trained under Luke for years until he destroyed the new Jedi Order - after that as per canon he trained at least 7 years under Snoke and stand shortly before completing his training (says Snoke). He is no way on the level of Luke in ANH, but rather Luke in Jedi!
    • Accordingly, Kylo demonstrates Force powers Vader could only have DREAMED of having - e.g., laser freezing/stasis would have come handy when getting your robo-hand shot by Han, mind probing would have worked with Leia's unsuccessful interrogation in ANH, Force punch-out would have helped when trying to carbon-freeze/catch Luke etc.
    • And he is more high-ranking than Vader was in ANH who answered to Tarkin and was mocked by mid-level jerks. Kylo just answers to Snoke, yet he is an extremely incompetent and cartoonish leader/bad guy - letting prisoners escape twice and having hissy fits like a 8 year old, destroying a village and castle with the sought-after map in it, killing off people who might know where the map is, and last not least, losing several times to a untrained "girl" in Force and fighting skills etc.
    • Also, there is no real understandable motivation for him to go super-evil by killing his dad, why does he wish to be evil? And isn't he already evil enough committing genocide on a frequent...?
    His character writing does not even make sense on a basic lore level, e.g.: Kylo worships his granddad Vader and asks him to protect him from the "light". Huh...praying to Vader for THAT of all people? Vader famously turned to the light side, thereby destroying the dark side/Sith - and Vader is currently hovering around as a Force Ghost...

    This kind of writing really expects you to reside on the dim side of the Force or at least to assume all characters are already there. Alright, now back to the topic...



    .
     
  8. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Dec 2, 2016
    The part that always gets left out in these conversations is my early role in conceptualizing the film.
     
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  9. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    in the link the article talks about a book where this info came from , maybe I'm missing it but what's the book ?

    .
     
  10. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    I think one of the misconceptions about Kylo is that he's Anakin redux. That's really only half of it. Yes, he's seduced to the dark side by a figure who fills the void in the absence of a reliable support group, but he's also got elements of Luke in him as well. His task in TFA is not dissimilar from what Obi-Wan and Yoda imply Luke must do in ROTJ: He must kill his father. Luke obviously chooses a different path, but Kylo follows through, and now he's on an uncharted trajectory. I think this all fits in with the larger concept of repetition and poetry in Star Wars feeling familiar, but leading to different outcomes.
     
  11. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Kylo just wants his granddad to be proud of him.
     
  12. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    The Art Of The Force Awakens.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    It's really useful to watch the main Blu-ray featurette after reading the book--they both complement each other nicely.

    I'm writing all this up, and once I'm done, I'll post an update. I do believe Lucas left in January.
     
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  14. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel New Films Expert At Modding Casual star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Just the kind of comment I'd expect from a Disney minion. STOP LYING TO US, EVIL PERSON!!!
     
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  15. JW Fan

    JW Fan Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2015

    Yeah, before this week I thought, for various reasons, that he had most likely left in June 2013 (very similar to what the Redditer thought) but I've recently reconsidered and I now wonder whether he was gone before the TFA concept art production really got going. If this is true, I think it does call into question the validity of the Reddit poster's assertion that many of the ideas in the final film were from Lucas. To be sure, it's still possible, even likely, that that was the case, but I'm not as sure as I once was whether the evidence we have proves that. If Lucas wasn't really involved after January, then you can't really claim that every major piece of concept art made during that time was done with Lucas' input. Some were definitely based on his story (Hidalgo has confirmed that), of course (e.g. the Felucia art at the beginning of the book, as well as the characters of Sam/Skylar and Kira/Thea). Yet ideas like the junk planet, the superweapon, etc. didn't emerge until January 2013 or later. If Lucas was no longer involved at that point, then the Reddit argument basically falls apart.

    Obviously there's that rather famous picture of Lucas, Abrams, and Kennedy sitting at a table - https://i0.wp.com/media2.slashfilm.com/slashfilm/wp/wp-content/images/ZZ47437F78.jpg. I wonder when this would have taken place. Abrams was announced as director in January 2013, and signed at the very earliest in December. If Lucas actually did leave in January, how would he have met with Abrams? Plus, this October 2013 interview - https://makingstarwars.net/2013/10/jett-lucas-discusses-star-wars-episode-vii-sequel-trilogy/ - suggests that Lucas talked with Abrams a lot (unless Jett Lucas is just misinformed?)

    Lord this is confusing. :)

    On another note, one really interesting old tidbit I found recently was this:



    (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/new-star-wars-movie-has-387784)

    This article, from November 2012, suggests that Arndt and Lucas had already figured out a lot of the story in 2012. While it may be true that Lucas' original treatment was very short (Hidalgo said that), it appears that Arndt wrote a lot more before the Disney sale than I had ever imagined (particularly given the art book's seeming insinuation that the artists basically started from scratch with little to no pre-existing story). Now Arndt's statement that he had trouble figuring out what to do with Luke (starting off with him coming in in the second act but finding that unworkable) makes sense. (Previously, I hadn't been able to figure out when that would have occurred, since the art book seems to show Luke as being the MacGuffin from the very beginning of art meetings in January 2013.) Those story troubles must have occurred in 2012, before Abrams even entered the picture.
     
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  16. rocknroll41

    rocknroll41 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 28, 2013
    Yeah I remember Michael said in that one interview he did with JJ and Larry that he recognized the Luke issue "back in 2012."

    Did Pablo ever specify exactly how short Lucas' treatment was?
     
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  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Not sure it's fair to dump a bunch of dubious criticism on TFA & then tell us all to get back on topic. Since you brought it up I hope I can be permitted to respond.
    Completely correct. Kylo is not the beginner to be compared with Luke. That would be Rey. At no stage does the movie suggest he is. This was a false premise to begin with, which makes any criticism about this redundant.
    This is a slippery-slope of an issue to nitpick. The Saga is riddled with inconsistent use of the Force. Which allows us, if we're so inclined to question any episode or trilogy we want to. For example, the Jedi are shown to be able to pick up droids using the Force & throw them around like rag-dolls. Or knock them down at will. Why then is Obi-Wan bothering to engage in a dangerous lightsaber battle with what is essentially a droid in Grievous? Also, why don't they Force-push those buzz droids from their ships in RotS? Plenty of examples in the OT as well. There's also nothing wrong with characters having different Force abilities. Why shouldn't Snoke/Kylo have studied & learned some different tricks from those who came before?
    Firstly, it's grabbing at low-hanging fruit to hold up Vader in ANH as an example. When that was written he wasn't the central character in the Saga, wasn't one of two Sith ruling the galaxy & wasn't even Luke's father. Surely we need to make allowances for that. Was he subordinate to anyone other than the Emperor in the following OT movies? I recall him murdering admirals, & senior figures like Jerjerrod soiling themselves as the mere sight of him. While you're making comparisons though, there were several escapes on Vader's watch. The Rebels with the DS plans in R1, the Falcon fleeing from Hoth & then again at the end of ESB, to name a few.
    The obvious point that was made in the film is the Kylo was in a state of conflict between light & dark. Which was a tortuous state to be in. He needed to go fully one way or the other, to avoid being torn apart by that conflict. He thought that killing his own father would be the ultimate extreme act that would see him embrace the dark side fully & relieve him of that pain. There's nothing hard to understand about that. Why he chose to pursue the DS in the first place is yet to be explained. Nothing wrong with that, the story is only 1/3 of the way through. Would be a boring final two movies if everything had already been answered.
    You're making the mistake of bestowing viewer's knowledge onto a character. We may know & understand all of that but what's Kylo's perspective? He hasn't seen RotJ on dvd, so who knows what he believes went down with Vader. Or what picture Snoke has painted for him. Even if he does know that his grand-dad succumbed to the light, perhaps he sees a duality in Vader & he's only appealing to his Dark Side spirit, if there is such a thing. The history of Vader also makes Kylo's decision with Han seem more rational, at least from an evil DS point of view. Perhaps he saw himself faced with a similar choice to that of Vader, & he wasn't going to make the same "mistake" that he made. It's these inversions that are fascinating, & they make the character of Kylo a very compelling one. To many of us anyway.
     
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  18. Tristan the Trilobite

    Tristan the Trilobite Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2017
    This is a very popular deflection. But this assumes that Vader is "as clumsy as he is stupid". Which he is not. This explanation wrongfully assumes that:

    - Vader is not able or too lazy to distinguish two very different ships, despite him being an ace pilot and mechanic;
    - especially considering he personally watched the Rebels hand over, not beam, the plans to the other ship
    - considering it makes him a horrible interrogator by basically not stating certified facts he witnessed, but clumsily twisting the facts so that the rebels tell actually the truth (they actually received no transmission)
    - and considering that via the transmission they traced/identified Leia's ship, which obviously could not happen if the plans were physically handed over.
    etc

    Thus, rather than logically filling the plot hole, it gets clumsily covered by semantics against stated facts and dialogue in the films - logically, what is called an ad absurdum argument. Legally speaking, I strongly advice to tread carefully when crossing this covering.

    RO is still a great film! ;)
     
  19. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Well it's quite unclear. There's also talk of "stolen data tapes". Vader asks for a physical search for the plans, & he assumes the tapes must've been hidden in an escape pod. Notice he doesn't consider that the plans were beamed down to the planet? Why would all of that be the case if he were only concerned with a transmission? I think the most obvious explanation is imprecise language. You believe what you like. If you want to discuss it further tag me in an appropriate R1 thread.
     
  20. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Anthology/Fan Films/NSA Mod & Ewok Enthusiast star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Back on topic. Now.
     
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  21. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
  22. Mostly Handless

    Mostly Handless Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2017
    ^^^TBH, I'm not particularly surprised by that revelation. Han dying was one of the earliest rumors I remember hearing about VII, so I suspected that the plot point went way back to the earliest days of development.

    I do hope that this information encourages people who feel that TFA 'ruined the arcs of the OT big three' to rethink their position. Whatever other issues I have with that movie, I think it brought closure to the Han Solo character in a meaningful way.:)
     
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  23. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    What I do not think GL would've done is keep Chewie and the Falcon around.
     
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  24. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    After Han's death?
     
  25. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Yeah. I mean, I think he would've written it in a way that got rid of all three and made way for a new nonhuman sidekick and a new location (ship, planet, station...) that our heroes would return to over and over (and they would both have been introduced in EpVII).

    I could be wrong, of course, but that's what the George I know would've done.