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TFA TLJ The Development of the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Artoo-Dion , Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014
    I disagree with his reasoning. Rey didn't "make the choice to find her own identity in the story". She was chosen by the Force to be the light side counterpart to Kylo's darkness. So she is a Skywalker-type Chosen One without the Skywalker name. What's the point of making her random, then? Feel like tearing things down just for the sake of it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  2. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Exactly.

    Wouldn’t Rey, if they wanted to go the “random” route, not be presented as, well...a lot like a Skywalker (down to physical resemblence!) and even follow the story beats of Luke’s OT journey?

    What is the point of making Rey a Skywalker in all but name? Doesn’t that fundamentally undermine what would be the core message and purpose of a “Rey Random” narrative?
     
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  3. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002

    I'm not sure about this because I'm certain I read somewhere that Daisy Ridley knew who her parents were back in TFA - meaning, Abrams and Johnson were on the same page.
     
  4. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    What's the problem with having a Skywalker-type hero without being called a Skywalker?
     
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  5. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    As I said elsewhere to me the problem is not even this one...

    In this story, ep. I, the notion of the Chosen One prophecy is introduced.
    We may like it or not, but... so it was.

    Anakin is presented as a Space Jesus... born of a virgin, etc...

    That said, in 8 we're told that: there was balance for a while, after 6, but then Kylo turned
    and the Force to balance that dark power rising, awekened in Rey.

    Now... if this is how the Force works on regular basis, there was not need of a CH prophecy at all.
    There was not any CO. It's just the Force that balances itself on regular basis.
    And the CO prophecy is pointless.
    It's like saying: Jesus was special, but not that much.

    @Garth Maul I think they were on this matter. But they could have not been.
    But beside that, the key point to me is that... JJ wrote TFA script, and that script/movie
    doesn't hold the key or the hints for future developments/endgame.

    RJ was free to find in it the inspiration he wanted. To tell the story he wanted to tell.
    Meaning that, he may have found interesting something that JJ put there without foreseeing
    that development coming... Or the contrary.

    And I believe so will be JJ in regards of TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  6. Tanjint

    Tanjint Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    @redxavier because it's a pointless fake-out. By dropping all this outside-of-the-movie content about the importance of Jakku but then making Rey's origins more or less straightforward/not connected to the larger saga it's almost like gas-lighting the people who analyze clues and context. It leads us down a trail of bread crumbs that we accurately interpret only to still be told we were wrong and obsessing about minutiae. It's claiming a mantle of populism ("anyone can be the hero!") without actually earning it. Meanwhile the saga of the Chosen One/Skywalkers hasn't even been fully resolved.

    @mlsw I agree with your critiques on a gut level but I think we can analyze some of it into making sense.....a few thoughts I have on the topic:

    1. Space Christ - Christ's apostles didn't just inherit an easy situation in which to establish Christianity after Jesus' final ascent. My understanding is there was hundreds of years of humble living of small monk like groups on temples such as the one at Skellig Micael where Ahch-To is depicted. So the idea that it takes some time to establish stability of Christianity/The Church of the Force/the Jedi order jibes well as far as the spirit of the inspiration for a lot of the larger saga. It also kind of jibes with Dark Horse's Star Wars Legacy which takes place 137 yeas after Return of the Jedi with a similar status quo- sparse remnants of Jedi hiding from a new Sith Empire- depicting an even larger time-jump with a similar struggle to keep the Jedi alive.

    2. What if balance is a few and a few? For years I had friends that said Anakin did bring balance in that there were 2 Sith (he and Palpatine) and 2 Jedi (Obi-Wan, Yoda) for decades after ROTS. What if balance can take several forms?

    3. The prophecy's relevance could be to the destruction of the Bane Line specifically, not necessarily all dark side users of the Force. It could even be about the Sithari/Palpatine specifically.

    4. The prophecy's relevance could mean both the end of the Bane line and the reform of a Jedi order that had grown too rigid, large, bureaucratic, militaristic

    Some of the stuff I'm referring to is pretty informed by ideas in the Darth Plagueis novel which I think is still more canon than a lot of people act like: Luceno re-canonized elements of it in the Tarkin novel, Plagueis' existence is forever canon thanks to Revenge of the Sith, and I would be gobsmacked and shocked if Disney put resources into a re-telling/revision of Plagueis' story in any form in the next 5-8 years (I could see them doing it in a decade maybe). I say all that to say, Plagueis' advancement of the Bane line grand plan, the Revenge of the Sith more or less, was associated with the dark side counterparts to the light side prophecies the council had about the CO so Anakin's specialness remains- he was both the deliverance of the dark side prophecy of the revenge of the Sith (which had to do with a dark sider born of the force and the Sithari which can be interpreted as Vader or Palpatine in this era) AND the deliverance of the light side prophecy of the child born of the Force who would ultimately bring about the destruction of the Sith (Bane line or just dark siders that refer to themselves as Sith) and "balance".

    To hone in harder on this trilogy's mythology, this idea that there was balance for some time after Return of the Jedi is fascinating and our most obvious indication that there's major force mythology yet to be revealed here: was it just Ben Solo's personal experiences (perhaps learning who his grandfather was after his family hiding it from him, being sent to Jedi training when maybe what he wanted was unequivocal love from Han) that led to the return of imbalance? Was there something about how Luke established his new temple that imbalanced the Force? Was it Snoke's larger plans/the events that set Snoke's machinations into action? These are questions that I very much hope and somewhat think we'll get some kind of answer on eventually.

    -T
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  7. Luke's_Mighty_Beard

    Luke's_Mighty_Beard Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2018
    In terms of storytelling, I believe that it's too late to reveal her true parentage. Han, Luke, and Leia are gone, and so who is left to present a big shock? Obi-Wan? I personally feel a Rey Kenobi would be a stretch at this point in the trilogy. I think in order to preserve integrity, they shouldn't reveal her parents, making Rey accept that she may never find out.
     
  8. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    The entire Chosen One prophecy has been misread for thousands of years. Even Obi-Wan believes it was Luke and not Anakin. If Light regularly rises to meet darkness then at any point in history different Jedi could have believed that someone was the chosen one to defeat the darkness in that particular era. Now, Anakin based on the virgin birth almost certainly checks the most boxes for what the prophecy foretold and given the strength of his adversary in Palpatine the Force probably DID need to rise to particular heights to help balance out Sidious. So, Anakin and Sidious may be the equivalent of Kylo Ren and Rey. Just at the most epic levels in thousands of years and for a time they worked together instead of fighting each other.
     
  9. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Perhaps Lucas intended Kira/Rey to be a descendant of the Skywalker lineage in order to develop a sibling conflict, and prior to TFA, I too thought that Kylo and Rey were siblings. But I ultimately love the thematic friction between an absolute nobody (Rey) having greater Force potential and someone who comes from a bloodline of Force royalty (Kylo) and feels entitled to that power.

    And it's possible to be both an absolute nobody and yet have something "truly special." Such was the case with Anakin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  10. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    I don't think they'll change it. My point was just that each director can go where he wants.
    So GL's ideas are there to be used as long as they fit JJ and RJ ideas, not the contrary... let's put it this way.

    @Tanjint There are several ways to resolve the issue if they want to.
    That it's why I personally disagree when some one says "in order to have new movies, there cannot be
    balance anymore when the ST opens"
    I just think that really creative people, very good storytellers may come to something... more compelling than "there was for a while,
    now there's not"
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  11. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Porg of New Films & Fan Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    This isn't the place to promote your fan fiction.
     
  12. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Given that for 2 years there was heated debate about the bread crumbs, leading to all sorts of contradicting conclusions, I don't think you can say that anything was accurately interpreted from TFA and the supposed hints in the peripheral materials. There was about enough 'evidence' that she was a Solo or a Kenobi as a Skywalker. Such was the investment that ff she was made a daughter Skywalker in TLJ, there would be just as much outcry and dislike. I don't think it was a pointless fake-out (because of what it means to Rey) nor was it gas-lighting those who like to obsess about the minutiae (not least because RJ finished the script before TFA was even released).

    Anyhow, I understood the Chosen One angle to have been resolved in with ROTJ (and thank goodness). This is a new chapter.
     
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  13. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    Rey doesn’t have more Force potential than Kylo; they’re equal in that regard.

    The Skywalker lineage is not “Force royalty” in the GFFA. Being of Anakin’s blood is more of a curse than anything else.
     
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  14. mlsw

    mlsw Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 30, 2017
    @ewoksimon @Ender_and_Bean
    They can put in the trash whatever GL wanted and stated about Anakin and the Chosen One prophecy.
    They can.
    But the point is, until 6, Anakin is clearly the CO and ONLY.
    And according to Lucas, he fulfilled the prophecy kylling Sidius and ending the Sith.

    My point was... if a prophecy was made about the CO then, whatever he did, that has to be something... special.
    His task. His goal. Not even his powers per se.

    But if as it seems after 8, everytime that there is a rising dark power, the force will do something to balance
    itself, then there was no reason to have a prophecy, misread or not, about a CO.
    Balancing the Force, became ordinary job.
    It's how the force works.
    Anakin was an ordinary tool - chosen among millions - in the hands of the will of the force, so is rey.
    Therefore you put in a trash compactor the core theme of the entire saga from 1 to 6.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  15. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Wait Pablo deleted all his Star Wars tweets?
     
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  16. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Ok, but the conflict still remains someone who comes from nothing having equivalent power to someone who feels entitled to everything. That's what I love.
     
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  17. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Porg of New Films & Fan Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Yes, he didn't like them being monetized by clickbait sites.
     
  18. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The story tells us that the prophecy was made at some point presumably thousands of years in the past when the Sith were still around.

    In that time the Force never went out of balance in any way since there never was a Chosen One identified nor did the Sith take it out of balance. As long as the Sith were gone there was no need to consider it. With the Sith returned and Anakin identified as possibly the Chosen One then they knew dark times were ahead.

    After he turns to the Dark side. He had no reason to believe that Anakin could ever return.

    The prophecy is far more specific though. It's about the Sith taking the Force out of balance. The Sith were around for thousands of years and never did it before. Light rising to meet Darkness is a regular thing. What the Sith did isn't something that is normal but unnatural using the Dark side to a level never seen before.

    Could be but the Force is not out of balance. This is a more common occurrence of Light vs Dark unless they are going to tell us that Ren as Vader's grandson is able to take the Force out of balance due to his inherited strength.

    If the point is that what the Force created to balance it is now a threat so yet another element has been created by the Force to end that threat then that is a story that will be told in IX.


    .
     
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  19. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    It’s someone who believes she comes from nothing being = in power to a guy who felt very entitled, yes. But self-perception is distinct from the reality of the origins of each.

    But I’ve seen zero implication that, without Snoke’s involvement, Ben would have grown up feeling entitled at all (and certainly not due his bloodline).

    Incidently, if GL indeed intended Kira to be a Skywalker, than he was going for the “lost royal child” trope, and the “privileged vs nobody” dynamic would likely have still been there.
     
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  20. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 25, 2014
    It's the Skywalker family saga.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  21. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    too bad. I understand though. It must be annoying.
     
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  22. Tanjint

    Tanjint Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    @redxavier I don’t mean that her not being a legacy makes it a pointless fake-out. I mean that depicting her as a chosen one of SOME kind with no pay off to that is a pointless fake-out.

    When I say we accurately interpreted bread crumbs all I mean is we ingested the content that Lucasfilm themselves made and released in multiple formats and media that explicitly talks about the significance of Jakku. All that ties into TFA- graveyard of empire is there, Rey is there, Lor San Tekka and his chapter of the church of the Force along with a piece of the map- all that is there and that is not fans going crazy digging for minutiae- Lucasfilm made all that content with those ideas and coincidences in the wide open and then sold it to us for money. So yes, many fans I would say accurately inferred that there is a whole lot more to Jakku that even the Aftermath books/Battlefront II game does not deliver on. It can’t not have to do with Rey because she is the “light that rose to meet the dark (chosen one but not a chosen one, this is why the fake out is pointless)” and all those other things about Jakku are undisputed factoids now….I’m not saying she has to be a Skywalker or Kenobi or putting in a box what she has to be, but Rey’s origins as depicted doesn’t remotely deliver on all of those Lucasfilm, not fan, but Lucasfilm-created bread crumbs. Her being an “utter nobody” is a pointless fake out. But I think we could be easily satisfied: even something spinning off from how the Rebel presence at the post-episode 6 battle of Jakku led to her being there would satisfy me. Something, ANYTHING, but not “nobody” after all of the aforementioned ridiculously significant coincidences.

    @mlsw in the sense that episode 7 undoes so much of what is accomplished in episode 6 I get you about diminishing the specialness of Anakin. But in the sense of the function of prophecy…..Anakin’s uniqueness at the very least:

    - Existed at the zenith of both sides of the Force

    - Immaculate conception

    - Destroyed the Bane line

    - Destroyed the Sith

    - Destroyed the massive and problematic bureaucracy the Jedi order had become

    - Destroyed the evil Empire the Sith (including himself) had created

    Also, given all the twin suns/twin sons mythology to every iteration of the GFFA, I don’t see how Anakin is clearly the CO and only. I am personally partial to him as Chosen One but there are convincing arguments for Luke as ‘the twin son” to the chosen one, especially if factoring in the possible misinterpretation of ancient texts hinted at by Windu, Yoda and Obi-Wan throughout the saga. This idea makes me think of how the Cade Skywalker Star Wars legacy stories make it seem like the Skywalkers, from Anakin on, are just a chosen bloodline that will be involved integrally in galactic power struggles time and time again throughout cycles of war.

    @Qui-Riv-Brid : I have some ideas on this myself but what do you think specifically the Sith did to take the Force out of balance in Anakin’s era? When Plagueis tried to create life? Destroying the Jedi? Dominating the galaxy?

    “If the point is that what the Force created to balance it is now a threat so yet another element has been created by the Force to end that threat then that is a story that will be told in IX. “ this is a good idea, just would make me wonder why the Anakin prophecy is one that is heralded but not Rey’s. Unless “and light to meet it…” is a quote from something? Or if that “resolving of grey” poem from Journal of the Whills can be interpreted as a heralding of Rey.

    -T
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  23. JoJoPenelli

    JoJoPenelli Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2000
    And because there’s no point in making the protag a Skywalker in all but name.

    The point of making her unrelated would be to make her new and different, and not have her mirror the journey and conflicts of the last Skywalker protag.
     
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  24. Tanjint

    Tanjint Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Right! Make someone like DJ a force user if you want to shock with something different.

    -T
     
  25. NexuLeader

    NexuLeader Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 18, 2017
    I don't have any specific thoughts at the moment, but want to chime in and say I love this thread!

    I really wish George and Disney could have combined their powers and delivered a masterpiece.
     
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