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TFA TLJ The Development of the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Artoo-Dion , Sep 14, 2017.

  1. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Fearless Vampire Killer star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Aug 19, 2003
    Um... Stormtroopers defecting from the First Order cause after witnessing something that makes them change their mind is not unprecedented.

    Members of the First Order looking for opportunities to undermine Kylo Ren's authority is also not unprecedented.

    I wouldn't be shocked if Hux released footage of Crait to his YouTube channel.
    TCF-1138 likes this.
  2. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Mar 9, 2001
    Who is Luke to them?
    Um, even Rey, who lived on a backwater planet with next to no connection to the outside world knew of Luke Skywalker. She may have considered him to be a myth at that point, but that is kind of true for many legendary figures. If there is one thing that can rally the people, it is the return of the hero who brought down the Empire. It was Luke Skywalker who destroyed the first Death Star, it was Luke Skywalker who faced Vader and the Emperor at Endor, making him the symbol of the rebellion. And now that an evil group is trying to take over the galaxy again, it is Luke Skywalker who suddenly appeared when all seemed lost, and allowed the remaining resistance to get away while he faced the First Order and all its might all on his own. That elevates Luke almost to mystical status to all, especially those who never met him in person.

    Not sure if you realised it, but it WAS Luke who saved the resistance, not Rey. It was his appearance that not only allowed them to flee, but gave them the idea of escaping in the first place. Without Luke, none of them get out of there, regardless of what Rey is doing.

    And not this "no one came to help" nonsense again. The Republic had just been destroyed, and with it most if not all of the Republican fleet. Who exactly was supposed to come in and fight the First Order a mere days after the actual military of the Republic had been destroyed?
    Anyone who even could have considered fighting first would have needed to assemble troops to fight. This is literally days after the war broke out, with most of the galaxy still in shock and only one side that had its military already in place and ready to strike. When something like that happens, it takes time to rally people and prepare to fight. WW2 didn't end with an immediate counter-invasion of continental Europe right after the Nazis had just beaten France either, it tooks years to get into a place where an advance was possible.
    DarthHass, Satipo and Martoto77 like this.
  3. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Dec 22, 2015
    His "leaker" pseudonym will be:
    Mike Zeroh
  4. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    May 19, 2002
    It's been like 3-4 days since the Republic was wiped out and SKB in retaliation. Those are huge events in a galaxy but they also take time for allies and government leaders to analyze, process and vote on. This is where the compressed time frame helps. The FO is capitalizing on the window of time before word gets out that SKB was destroyed and that the Supreme Leader has been assassinated.

    WWII started in September of 1939. France was occupied by the Spring of 1940. During this time Germany and Italy DID NOT declare war on the United States and several notable, powerful American businesses including IBM continued profitable ties with Germany and Italy while millions were killed. In fact, Hitler himself was reportedly furious initially that Japan had even attacked the United States at all because he knew that America and several other nations were okay watching from the sidelines for a while longer and gathering intel and preparing in their own ways. FDR was apparently open to war and an ally of Churchill's personally but public opinion in America was that joining the fight might cost him the election. I'm sharing this to remind how difficult it is to just drop everything and jump into war versus an opponent like the FO simply due to a distress signal.

    By June of 1941 America began sending aid. America entered the war nearly 2 years after it started in December of 1941 following the attack on Pearl Harbor. Around 4 months after that America was able to strike its first attacks back on Japanese soil and they were more symbolic than anything else. Tokyo (principally) Yokohama, Kobe, and Osaka had bombs dropped on them but it was 4 years before the bombing of Hiroshima.

    The question probably shouldn't be, "Why didn't the allies come at the drop of a hat among all of the chaos that had occurred over the previous 3 days. The question should probably be, "Why would Leia and Holdo honestly assume that a significant ally would be in position to help so soon afterward?" 3 days is the blink of an eye to any democratic planet that had been sitting on the sidelines previously, or dealing with their own issues in the chaos. Large military operations from other governments would likely need a week or two to gather all that had happened and plan accordingly. You don't just jump into a fight like that and expose your population without a strategy to win or avoid retaliation on your people.

    The distress call was a desperate shot in the dark for a group of last stand survivors that went unanswered for logical reasons but as the word of SKB's losses continues to spread in the days ahead, and the death of the Supreme Leader, and the return of Luke Skywalker, who seemed invincible and who announced a new Jedi who supposedly killed the Supreme Leader and all of his guards, momentum could spread around the idea from other planets that the time to strike back is truly now or risk being occupied eventually themselves.

    And I'm confident that will basically be the message heading into IX. Something like this:

    "The FO is more vulnerable at present then they will be in a year's time so unless you want to be occupied... we are the living proof of their tyranny and we have Luke Skywalker's last known student and she killed Snoke himself. Isn't that right, Rey?"

    I really suspect that Rey will be utilized almost like Katniss Everdeen was for the public and the allies' hope and the idea that she killed Snoke, along with other tall tales will be told to build momentum around a comeback. The recruitment of allies may play out a little like the Starks in Game of Thrones trying to rebuild their alliances. One at a time. Some will join. Some will say "No thanks." Some will want to know where Luke Skywalker is. Some might be told half-truths from a certain point of view. These will be desperate times and I won't be surprised if the house of cards built up will come down at some point and it will be revealed that it was NOT Rey who killed Snoke but rather Kylo Ren and that will be utilized as one of the potential setback moments for IX.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    rorow1 and Darth Downunder like this.
  5. Skylo_92

    Skylo_92 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 5, 2018
    Its weird. I really enjoy the ST so far, although I believe its not the best possible version of it we could've gotten. Hindsight is what it is but it would've been more ideal had Disney/Lucasfilm decided to not discard the Lucas outline, even if it was vague on details ultimately. George Lucas' input as the idea/big picture guy with JJ directing and Kasdan & Arndt as the writers that way we would've gotten the best of both world's in my opinion. You have Lucas mapping out the story as only he can since he's an idea guy, JJ is great at casting and getting the best performance out of his actors, and finally we would've gotten great dialogue with Kasdan back and Arndt is an academy award winning writer so he would've structured the story nicely. As fun as TFA was and I really enjoy it, it still will always be a missed opportunity. My 2 big problems with it was the absolute stupidity after spending 6 films centered on the fall of the Republic and restoring it, that in the film after the big victory that was had in ROTJ, JJ and company decided to destroy the New Republic in order to do a new version of Rebel's against the Empire. Would've been wiser to have the New Republic be split into two factions, one that turned the other way in the wake of the FO's rise and the other would've been Leia's group that saw the warning signs so to speak. I don't think anyone was clamoring for Rebels 2.0. Also that third act is weak since it kinda abandons the search for Luke story to focus on SKB and preventing it from destroying the Resistance base. My opinion, instead of taking inspiration from ANH, JJ & Kasdan should've took inspiration from another Lucas story for that last arc which Kasdan would've been familiar with- Raiders of the Lost Ark. That third act should've been similar to Raiders in the sense that Kylo & the FO somehow get the map but perhaps they don't have the other piece of the map so it's a race to get the map back before Kylo gets the last piece to the map. That way you could've kept that last act small and still character based and saved SKB for EPIX (lol jk). I know I'm going on a tangent, sorry for it but I've had this inside for head for a while and needed to get it out. If I make no sense, sorry about that haha. oh well, I'd rather have more Star Wars films that are being produced with the quality that the new Lucasfilm is producing them (I know is debatable with how polarizing TLJ is) then none honestly.
  6. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 18, 2015
    As much as I would love to hear Lucas version of the ST, Lucas himself was no longer interested in doing anything else with Star Wars.

    So we can only wonder, but the man himself does not want to work with SW anymore.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    It's customary to use hindsight after seeing what might have been done instead. As yet we don't know what might have otherwise been done except that which has been reported was more or less what we actually got.
  8. Visivious Drakarn

    Visivious Drakarn Jedi Master star 3

    Apr 20, 2013
    Well, maybe Rey is familiar with Luke's past as it had time to spread across the galaxy. She's not aware of his recent history. I mean, he created Kylo Ren and went away, left him to storm the galaxy. It's reasonable to consider the option that, beyond the Resistance, Luke is not liked by people.

    I don't agree with that. Rey lifted the rocks and, along with Chewie, took the survivors from the planet. Had Falcon been destroyed, delayed or drawn away, what, Luke would've fought Kylo forever? No one came to help them, they were alone.

    Again, the idea of destroying the Republic and most of it's fleet in one stroke is beyond lazy. Still, there are no other fleets in the galaxy? Not a single planet has an army to fight back?
    -LordSkywalker- likes this.
  9. Skylo_92

    Skylo_92 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 5, 2018
    I'm pretty sure he was still interested up until he and Disney came to an impasse in the story development. We all know Lucas is a walking contradiction and since the abandonment of his ST stories has a bit of a victims complex but he clearly still wanted to be a part of the process in shaping the story based on that Charlie Rose interview. Based on the little snippets of BTS info we've gotten, he was actively involved in shaping the story in the months following the sale. The only reason he isn't involved is because as previously stated, JJ/KK/Disney decided to go in their own direction and Lucas in his own words stated it was best to go separate ways, as we all know he's a notorious control freak. Now if your talking about presently, then of course he has no interest in taking part, I'm sure he's at peace with not being involved and I honestly hope he was, I was just spit balling alternate scenarios.
  10. Skylo_92

    Skylo_92 Jedi Youngling

    Mar 5, 2018
    Fair point, I know that but its just fun to consider what if's.
  11. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Oct 26, 2009
    I've stated this before. I don't think it's a case of Disney completely discarding Lucas' treatments. It's that they developed the narrative so much further beyond them, not that they started over completely from scratch.
  12. ardavenport

    ardavenport Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 16, 2004
    There was no way for Luke to win in a confrontation with Ben. Lose-lose all the way

    If he killed Ben -- And if he wouldn't kill a father with whom he did not have the greatest relationship with, would he really kill his nephew? -- I think that would damaged Luke too badly for him to continue.

    If Ben killed him, that's even worse.

    The only thing for him to do was withdraw and let the Force send someone else to stand up to Ben; and that is one thing that he did seem certain of. He decided that the Jedi were done (and he looked pretty unhappy about that decision) ....... he was right; Rey showed up. He just didn't realize that he wasn't quite done with it all.

    rorow1, Darth Downunder and Martoto77 like this.
  13. Oissan

    Oissan Force Ghost star 7

    Mar 9, 2001
    No, that is not reasonable at all. Hardly anyone knows who Kylo Ren is, he's wearing a mask and calls himself by a different name, you know. The Jedi temple or Ben now being Kylo Ren - member of a group that has done absolutely nothing prior to attacking the Republic - are irrelevant details of history for the galaxy as a whole. There is very little reason for anyone but a selected few to know about them. What is not an irrelevant detail, is how Luke destroyed the Death Star or faced off with Vader and the Emperor, ending in their deaths. What is also not an irrelevant detail, is said Luke Skywalker returning at the time of greatest need to single-handedly take on the First Order's military might.

    And you don't think that Luke knew about all that?
    Without him, the resistance isn't getting anywhere. It was his appearance that prevented the First Order to attack the few remaining members of the resistance. It was his appearance that made those resistance-fighters even think that it might be possible to escape. Which in turn led to them trying to find a way out. Without him, Rey returning with the Falcon is irrelevant, because everyone would be dead already.

    No, it isn't lazy at all. As a matter of fact, it's taken right out of history. It's pretty obvious actually. The galaxy as a whole had disarmed to quite an extent - which is completely normal after a big war - leaving only the Republic fleet as a big force. But even that force was smaller than prior fleets had been, because with no one else having anything close to such a fleet, it doesn't take a huge fleet to be in control. The First Order re-armed in a territory that the Republic didn't even know about and thus had a force that could easily take control once the Republican fleet would be destroyed. Having some sort of local security force isn't the same as having a fleet that can take on a huge enemy. What you have is a Republic that just lost its fleet, leaving it with at best some odd ships spread out all over the galaxy. On the other hand, you have the First Order, which, as attacker, moved as combined force. It would be utterly stupid for anyone to directly charge at the First Order, because the First Order has numerical superiority due to having its fleets already assembled. If everyone just attacked them, they could pick of the ships one after another. The only way to fight back against such an enemy is to assemble all the ships you can find and form some fleets of your own. This requires informing people all over the galaxy and getting them to rally somewhere.

    This follows right after Germany secretly re-arming and wiping out what was supposed to be the strongest army in the world in a quick attack. Leaving all of Europe reeling in complete shock, with no one being able to fight back at that point, allowing the Nazis to take over more and more of Europe. It took years, and Germany also attacking the Soviet Union, before its enemies had rallied enough troops and resources to actually claw back into the fight and push the Nazis back.

    The only thing that is lazy (on an intellectual basis) is calling story-ideas one doesn't like "lazy".
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016

    I can't even be bothered doing that. Generally. [face_tired]
    Count Yubnub and Ricardo Funes like this.
  15. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    I hope we are seeing what GL intended, but it doesn't seem that way?

    Surely they had the good sense to follow GL (the creator of Star Wars), and his original flowing story?

    KK, don't let your personal feelings get in the way! [To directors] Keep making GL's scripts!
  16. Gharlane

    Gharlane Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Dec 30, 2000
    Except we have people like Rian Johnson and JJ saying otherwise. I think I believe them. Not to mention the fact that sources like the artbooks do show discontinuity after the Disney buyout.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  17. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014

    Oh what could have been! Missed opportunities.

    It was said you would continue and build on the story, not change it!

    I concur on TFA. This is the foundational set up that was required. And a GL arc linking the entire saga (Have you ever heard the Tragedy of Darth Plagues the Wise?), JJ directing or Gareth Edwards (RO), Arndt writing would have been golden. Less KK it would seem. You need ONE flowing vision about a story first and foremost.

    Batman Begins style flashback set up in TFA.
  18. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 5

    Jun 12, 2011
    Remember that actors don't know everything that happens behind of the scenes.

    Obviously The Force Awakens is the number one priority for Disney and Lucasfilm, but they also must be planning for the announced sequel trilogy. I asked Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy if a treatment had been written for Episodes VIII and IX and here is what she said:

    No, because at that point we were sitting down and talking about where this might go, even as early on as with Michael Arndt. We were sort of plotting out, because obviously if you know up front that you’re building the pacing inside a trilogy structure, we needed to have some sense of where this saga was going without locking in on things and leaving room for creative development. But we had to have some sense of where we were going.

    Director Abrams explained the process a bit further:

    We don’t write a treatment but there are countless times we came up with something and said “oh, this would be so great for Episode VIII!” or “Thats what we could get to in IX!” It was just that kind of forward moving story. But we knew this had to neither be a backwards moving nostalgic trip only nor a beginning of a movie without a satisfying conclusion, and that was part of the balancing act — embracing what we have inherited and using that where and whenever possible to tell a story that hasn’t been seen yet. We also knew that certain things were inevitable in our minds but that didn’t mean it would be inevitable for whoever came in next.

    Speaking of “whoever came in next,” Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy reminds me that Brick/Looper helmer Rian Johnson “started working on the script for Episode 8 a year and a half ago” and “he’s been in prep for a year” with the shoot scheduled to begin at the end of January 2016:

    So we need to be working a couple of years out in front of, at least in terms of the script, in front of these start dates.

    Kennedy says that Rian came in “very early and he read, and came and visited the set,” but how involved was Rian in The Force Awakens?

    J.J. and him had a lot of conversations.

    Abrams elaborates and praises Johnson’s screenplay for the next installment:

    When Rian who I admire enormously and adore, came on board, we met and talked with him about all the things we were working on and playing with, and he as a spectacular writer and director has taken those things and has written an AMAZING script that I think will be an incredible next chapter, some of which incorporating things we were thinking of and other things are things we could never of dreamed of.

    Does Rian Johnson read the Force Awakens script and give notes, suggesting changes or additions for things he maybe wants to seed early for his film? Abrams says the process was somewhat collaborative:

    There were a handful of things we talked about that were going to be helpful to him. Some were very easy to do, and some things were things that I didn’t want to do for other reasons, but I tried to be as accommodating as I could. And its so cool to see what happens next in a way that only someone as talented as Rian could do.

    Kennedy admits that Jurassic World helmer Colin Trevorrow will probably end up having a more involved collaboration with Rian Johnson:

    I think Colin [Trevorrow] will end up doing more of that more-so with Rian as he develops Episode IX.

    This makes sense as Trevorrow is coming in to direct the conclusion of this new sequel trilogy, and it’s essentially a third act of the story structured by Abrams and Johnson. As for JJ Abrams’ involvement in the future of the franchise, Kennedy told me:

    His involvement on VIII and IX will really just be an executive producer, and really just to continue the storytelling.
    The Legions of Lettow likes this.
  19. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 11, 2014
    Yeah it took decades, a massive false-flag operation, and a Machiavellian schemer of the highest order manipulating everyone to finally bring down the Old Republic (which had stood for a thousand generations), plus TWO powerful Jedi betraying them.

    Here, the New Republic barely made it 30 years, accomplished nothing of note, and got taken out within days because some thugs blew it up with a big gun. So not only is the conflict repetitive, it's just far less interesting or believable, not to mentioned more rushed.

    And yeah, saying that the entire NR and it's fleet was parked in one system that could be blown up in one shot, is beyond lazy. And also any pretense of "it's more realistic" goes out the window once that happens, because no military in the world is that stupid.
    -LordSkywalker- likes this.
  20. Nipuhanipera

    Nipuhanipera Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 25, 2014
    I still don't understand why they didn't use GL's treatments. The main reason often cited is the age of the protagonists, but I can't imagine it being that big of a problem. Characters can be aged up. So there have to be other reasons...
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  21. DarthPhilosopher

    DarthPhilosopher Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Jan 23, 2011
    Well they did use significant portions of his treatments, but obviously they changed in a way that George believed that they had thrown them away. I suspect this is because they pushed back the heart of his treatments to 8 to have a retro TFA.
  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    They did use them. They didn't throw them out. GL left because he realized that the process of realizing the movie that originates from his treatment will change or stay the same in ways that he would not have the final word on. Not because they threw out his treatments. But because he was not the "dictator" (his choice of word) regarding the development through the entire writing process and production, which made him feel "awkward".
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    Ricardo Funes likes this.
  23. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 14, 2015
    Of course, a Whill will know all of this Grand Vision.
  24. The One Above All

    The One Above All Jedi Padawan star 1

    Apr 11, 2017
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 6, 2016
    A million death stars.