The difference in the attitude of the jedi - PT compared to OT

Excelent Posts Master_Shaitan.

Concerning attachment, there is something else which I would like to point out that I don't see anyone else having mentioned. As Jabba-wocky said, most people cite that Luke was allowed attachments at birth, but he quickly gave a very logical explination to this.
Well then, I would like someone to explain this one,

How can attachment be bad when it is attachment which saves Anakin in the very end? Recall that it is because of his attachment and his love for Luke that he eventually returns from the darkside. The difference is when Attachment becomes self absorbed selfishness, as what happend to Anakin in ROTS. He did what he did not for her sake, but because he felt that he couldn't live without her.
But in ROTJ his actions were selfless, and he both brought balance to the force and saved the universe all because of the attachment between father and son.

 

*sigh* -- so true.

Kill Vader - I would concede this as a possibility, post-Mustafar. But kill Sidious? The same Darth Sidious who's obliterated three top Jedi swordsmen within seconds and sent Yoda into exile, not daring to face him once again? They couldn't possibly have been that arrogant/ignorant to actually believe that their latest, hastily trained apprentice would be a match for Sidious?

I'm not sure if I get what you mean - could you explain what this "forever will it domiate your destiny" would mean in the case of Luke?

I really think this comes close to the truth. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the Saga - but why did Kenobi and Yoda have to die before Luke could set up a new Jedi Order? I think it's because they've stopped halfway down the road and were not prepared to walk it to its end.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, MS. They've helped a lot to clarify my own, and to get me thinking. Somehow, ROTJ keeps haunting me these days.

 

Hi, my 1st post on this forum "jedi saga"

I was thinking about this question too.

Obi Wan and Yoda didn't have any choice but to let Luke make his own choices though they did do everything they could to move him in the direction they wanted. He was their last hope and because he was strong in the force, they needed him. They truly were lost without him (and Leia).

If they had of told him Darth Vadar was his father it would have freaked him out on so many levels earlier on. At least he had some training in the force before he found out.

Ultimately though when he found out he handled it well and listened to their training and importantly, his own feelings.

I think they were right to not tell him straight away.

 

Excelent Posts Master_Shaitan.

Thanks.

Concerning attachment, there is something else which I would like to point out that I don't see anyone else having mentioned. As Jabba-wocky said, most people cite that Luke was allowed attachments at birth, but he quickly gave a very logical explination to this.
Well then, I would like someone to explain this one,

How can attachment be bad when it is attachment which saves Anakin in the very end? Recall that it is because of his attachment and his love for Luke that he eventually returns from the darkside.

Its not attachment that saves him - its unconditional love and compassion for Luke. There is a difference.

An attachment is something that creates a condition - you dont want to lose attachments and try and keep them at any cost. They become greedy selfish things.

A jedi should learn to let go of things but that doesnt mean they shouldnt love.

The Jedi allowed luke to live with the Beru's as it was the will of the force and they didnt really have much of a choice on the matter. They also saw that it was important that Luke experienced life so he could make his own informed choices later on.

The difference is when Attachment becomes self absorbed selfishness, as what happend to Anakin in ROTS. He did what he did not for her sake, but because he felt that he couldn't live without her.
But in ROTJ his actions were selfless, and he both brought balance to the force and saved the universe all because of the attachment between father and son.

Because of his realtionship with Luke - not attachment. Granted, the word alone in other contexts can mean different things. But in Star Wars it refers to having a possessiveness of people or power. Compassion and unconditional love is central to a jedi's life.

We could get caught up in sematics here but the key thing is to remember that a possessive relaionship is dangerous. A loving and compassionate relationship is a good thing.


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I'm not sure if I get what you mean - could you explain what this "forever will it domiate your destiny" would mean in the case of Luke?

I think what they are saying is that if you tap into/turn to/dabble with the dark side it will effect you for the rest of your life. I dont think it means - you will be a dark sider forever.

For instance, had luke have turned to the dark side it doesnt mean he would be a sith forever. He could still turn back. But that choice of becoming a sith will have a profound affect on his life until his death.

So with Vader, he was able to turn back but being a sith leads to his death.


Master_Shaitan posted:
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who knows...maybe the real change to the jedi came after Luke did what he did and redeemed Vader. Maybe Kenobi (possibly Yoda) wanted Luke to kill Vader. But Luke actually redeems Anakin. Maybe this is when the Jedi truely change?
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I really think this comes close to the truth. Perhaps I'm reading too much into the Saga - but why did Kenobi and Yoda have to die before Luke could set up a new Jedi Order? I think it's because they've stopped halfway down the road and were not prepared to walk it to its end.

IMO a new Jedi order couldnt really begin until balance is brought. Luke is being used as a tool to help restore that balance - Yoda and kenobi are mere expendable tools for the force to use in helping to train Luke who could do more than them in helping to bring balance.

Im not truely sure of what Kenobi and Yoda re up to in the OT. But I can say this:

They realised that they had to put trust into the living force -that it would want to bring balance.

They realsied that Luke had to make his own choices and follow his own path and they had to let him do that.

They had to however ensure Luke recieved the right training. They couldnt forbid him from having relationships that could form into attac

 

thanx for bringing my thread back from the dead

another question: if the jedi basically wanted to let luke make his own mind up about what was good/evil, why did kenobi lie to him about his father?
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Basically because Luke wouldnt have been ready. The jedi's duty is to help restore balance. if they told Luke that Vader was his father oo early he could have snapped. Then the balance would have been thrown apart even more.

Hi, my 1st post on this forum "jedi saga"

I was thinking about this question too.

Obi Wan and Yoda didn't have any choice but to let Luke make his own choices though they did do everything they could to move him in the direction they wanted. He was their last hope and because he was strong in the force, they needed him. They truly were lost without him (and Leia).

Agreed.

If they had of told him Darth Vadar was his father it would have freaked him out on so many levels earlier on. At least he had some training in the force before he found out.

Ultimately though when he found out he handled it well and listened to their training and importantly, his own feelings.

Agreed!

I think they were right to not tell him straight away.

 

Im just gonna post this link to something I wrote in the ROTS forums. I think it may help this discussion:

http://boards.theforce.net/Revenge_of_the_Sith_/b10331/19221209/p52/

Its a big monster of an essay unfortuneatly but it does refer to what the force is, what it wants and what the Jedi neeed to do.

 

Well, my problem with this is that I'm not sure that tapping into the dark side can be equated with becoming a Sith. What does it mean to tap into the dark side, and what does it mean to be a Sith? I've been thinking about this because I had a lot of problems in understanding the Palpatine character. I posted some thoughts on the ROTS board in http://boards.theforce.net/Revenge_of_the_Sith_/b10331/21541246/p2/?44

It's highly speculative what I'm about to write now, and it's just kind of a working hypothesis, I admit. I've come to believe that there is a great difference between tapping into the dark side and becoming a Sith. Remember that there are "dark Jedi" who aren't Sith. "Don't give in to fear and anger, they lead to the dark side" - so far, ok. But the mystery that struck me with Palpatine is this incredible emotional control he displays in every situation. He is in complete control of his emotions, he NEVER gives in to hate and fear. Quite the contrary, he uses them when they are servicable, otherwise he seems to be able to just switch them of. I think being a Sith is not about "giving in to hate and fear", which would mean "being controlled by them" . Being a Sith means learning to control these emotions, instead being controlled by them, fuel them up and use them for your own purpose, esp. when fighting. "Use your anger" it's taught by the Sith, not "let your anger use you". (which btw. makes it completely beside the point to compare Palpatine with Adolf Hitler, because the latter was in no control over his emotions, but was controlled by them). Being a Sith is not about tapping into the dark side, but about using and actually nourishing it.

Anakin, btw. in this sense was very remote from being a Sith during his Mustafar adventure. He didn't have any control over his emotions, he got consumed by them. That's why he made his fatal mistake. Actually, I doubt Anakin/Vader ever became a true Sith due to his lack of control over his emotions, which lead Palpatine to contempt him by the time of ROTJ.

Well, the PT Jedi with their fear of the dark side wouldn't allow to explore and deal with feelings such as fear, anger, attachments, which are part of the living Force. In part similar to the Sith, they aspired to control and overcome these emotions, so that they wouldn't get in their way. However, instead of overcoming these emotions, by not dealing with them at all they ended up suppressing them into the realm of shadows, into the darkness, causing the dark side to become more and more powerful.

By the OT, they'd realized, probably due to Qui-Gon, that avoiding the dark side at all costs is not the way. Thus they sent Luke into the cave to explore the dark side deliberately, in laboratory, so to speak. They were prepared to go that far. However, they weren't prepared to let Luke do the "real experiment", exploring the dark side in his mission to destroy the Empire. Still, he did on his own. He tapped into the dark side on Bespin, and he came back, although they didn't trust he would. And he tapped into the dark side in ROTJ, after Vader threatened he would go after Leia. And again he came back. He tapped into the dark side repeatedly, confronting his dark emotions, dealing with them and overcoming them. But he never used them for his purposes, and thus never started to follow the path of the Sith.

EDIT: Perhaps the lesson to be learned was that being in tune with the Force neither means achieving Zen-like detachment and enlightenment (PT Jedi) nor achieving black magic emotional control p

 

jedi's attitude:heroic and victorious. sith's attitude:stubarn and hard headed. Unless your talking about sidious.

 

I guess by being a Sith or Jedi you are becoming part of an organisation. Those organisations have rules and regulations and pass on the wisdom and knowledge it lives by and has learned to its memebers.

So I guess if you are a 'darksider' or 'lightsider' so to speak you have the same potential as a Jedi or Sith but you dont bceome the best person you could be.

For example - the Sith Order can teach its pupils how to be the best dark side user possible - use fear and anger etc Learn new tricks (lightning). The Jedi can teach its pupils how to be the best light side user possible (compassion and selflessness).

But if you dont have any affiliation then you are neither able to learn more through the knoweldge or wisdom held by the organisations but nor do you have to follow rules or regulations or hold certain beliefs.

So the answer to your theory would be yes - there is a difference. If you dont commit to either Order you fail to become the best force user you can be. The Sith Order offers more power. The jedi order offers you the chance to do the right thing - help keep the peace.

 

I dont believe a true Jedi Master uses both sides of the force though. Sith = greed, hate and anger - A jedi wouldnt ever use these nor should they. These things create imbalance - they are a cancer.

 

Master Shaitan, I must say you're here sooner than expected!

Well, part of my point amounts to: Palpatine is right when he tells Anakin that the Jedi and the Sith are not that different. In a sense they aren't - both schools of thought are about the control of emotions, basically.

The difference starts at the point the apprentice has learnt how to control his emotions. Acc. to Jedi, he should act un-emotionally. Acc. to Sith, he should USE his emotions to enhance his power.

As I understand it, this, and not "giving in to anger and hatred", is the difference between the ways of the Jedi and the Sith.

 

Ah, Master Shaitan, I must say you're here sooner than expected!

In the name of Revenge of the Sith forums on these boards - I coudlnt help myself!

Well, part of my point amounts to: Palpatine is right when he tells Anakin that the Jedi and the Sith are not that different. In a sense they aren't - both schools of thought are about the control of emotions, basically.

Agreed.

The difference starts at the point the apprentice has learnt how to control his emotions. Acc. to Jedi, he should act un-emotionally. Acc. to Sith, he should USE his emotions to enhance his power.

Agreed.

As I understand it, this, and not "giving in to anger and hatred", is the difference between the ways of the Jedi and the Sith.

Yes. But a Jedi should use love and compassion - which are emotions. They should act out of knowledge (help bring balance/do good) though yet shouldnt act because of their emotions I guess - but when they do act they should do so with love and compassion?? The Sith just act because they want power (thats their knowledge) and they do so through hate and anger (emotions)

 

I think that Anakin gave a great distillation of the fundamental difference between the Jedi and the Sith in his conversation with Palpatine at the ballet:

"[The Sith] think inwards, only about themselves."
"The Jedi are selfless. They only care about others."

Could we have had it spelled out to ourselves more plainly? I really appreciated Lucas giving Anakin complete clarity of thought prior to letting Palpatine tempt him with his tale of "Plagueis The Wise". In fact, that's WHY Palpatine changes tract - he's genuinely hit an impasse which necessitates his subsequent oration.

Everything else is a means to an end. That's not to say that everything else is superfluous or doesn't increase the chances of one person being a Sith or Jedi. For example, if the person is prone to emotion, they're either highly suited to being a Sith or already are one. Yet theoretically, they COULD be a Jedi if their embracement of passion did, in no way at all, taint their ability to act selflessly. But that's a big "if" as we all know where emotions, particularly unchecked ones, usually take you...

 

Don't kill me! I'm weak !!

I haven't yet come to a conclusion what the Sith, or Palpatine wants apart from achieving power. Maybe there is something else, maybe not.

My concern here is to point out that the way of the Sith is NOT about GIVING IN to hate, anger, fear, and the like, and that Anakin on Mustafar was NOT acting the Sith way. The Sith way is NOT about giving in to these emotions, it is about controlling them and using them when they are considered useful. It is not about letting yourself being consumed by hate, fear and anger, but instead to control and use them. And that's the real difference between a Sith Master and someone like Mustafar-Anakin.

 

I haven't yet come to a conclusion what the Sith, or Palpatine wants apart from achieving power. Maybe there is something else, maybe not.

I think its just an obsession with power. The sith just want more and more. Ultimate power - to cheat death - perhaps he is still after that.

My concern here is to point out that the way of the Sith is NOT about GIVING IN to hate, anger, fear, and the like, and that Anakin on Mustafar was NOT acting the Sith way.

Isee what u mean. I agree - even the sith should be patient and learn how to use their hate and anger.

The Sith way is NOT about giving in to these emotions, it is about controlling them and using them when they are considered useful. It is not about letting yourself being consumed by hate, fear and anger, but instead to control and use them. And that's the real difference between a Sith Master and someone like Mustafar-Anakin.

Agreed.

 

I'm almost certain that this is what was Sidious' goal.

Well, Sidious, with his patient plotting over decades certainly has accomplished this goal, don't you think?

Since you stated you are bored: Would you like to discuss my theory that Sidious has managed to transform his former self, Dantius Palpatine, into a personality of his own design, Darth Sidious? Do you think this is a notion that does justice to the galaxy's supreme puppet master, or do you have any problems with it?

 

Would you like to discuss my theory that Sidious has managed to transform his former self, Dantius Palpatine, into a personality of his own design, Darth Sidious? Do you think this is a notion that does justice to the galaxy's supreme puppet master, or do you have any problems with it?

I would say it was the other way around. He was Darth Sidious and always has been but needed to become Palpatine to fulfill the Sith plans. I would say he praticed for the role and pulled it off pretty well!

 

You mean he was born as Darth Sidious? Born evil, so to speak?

 

You mean he was born as Darth Sidious? Born evil, so to speak?

I dont think he was the Palpatine character before Sidious - put it that way.

But yeah - I also think he could have been born evil. I think he was discovered early by the Sith and didnt have time to be anyone else but 'Sidious'.

 

Well, as I explained on the ROTS board I dislike the notion that he was born evil because it lessens the character, imo. It implies that he somehow is not entirely responsible for what he does and what he is. To a degree, it makes the puppet master a puppet himself.

Essentially, it's a trade-off between how much power and responsibility you ascribe to a character and how "human" you picture him. With characters like Anakin, I tend to give more weight to the human side. With characters like Yoda or Sidious, I prefer to have them stronger, which means there's more responsibility and less excuses for them.

Yoda and Sidious are the most accomplished masters of their respective realm. And for me, any interpretation of the Saga should do these characters justice and shouldn't lessen them, deliberately or undeliberatly, by limiting their responsibility and thus their strength referring to whatever factors of influence.

In the case of the most powerful force users, Yoda and Sidious, I prefer to have a strong character who's entirely responsible for what he does, over a more human character that's fallible.

Thus, I hold Yoda, as much as I love him, responsible for letting the power of the light side of the Force diminish during the time of the Prequels. And likewise I hold Sidious responsible for all that he is and does.

Portraying Sidious as kind of a "fallen angel" or someone who's been born evil is like portraying Yoda as having been tricked to be a Jedi, or been talked into assuming the light side path, or born as a light side person. This, for me, would cut down the character's strength. I just don't like that notion, sorry. These characters have gone through decades of teaching and they are the greatest of their order. They MUST be held entirely responsible for all their decisions and actions - if they are not responsible entirely, who else would be?

 

As has been previously said, where would Sidious get his supreme knowledge of human fallacies and emotional weaknesses from if he hadn't experienced them for himself? He seemed to plan things with a meticulousness that went beyond simply using the Force to see into the future (which, as Yoda, an expert on looking into the future in the PT constantly reminded us, was a tenuous business). It's that perpetual mystery. Why did Iago also know the flaws of men so well? And why did he hate so much?

My own feelings are that, besides being an extreme archetype, Sidious once knew of human emotions and of humility itself. But then something terrible happened. He not only forgot how to love - he forgot what love was. This is what sealed his fate at the climax of Return of the Jedi.

 

Do u think, had luke killed vader aboard the second death star, that sidious would then have tempted luke fully to the dark side with the same tale of immortality to help save his friends?

Up until ROTS hit, i always thought the point luke killed vader he would have instantly joined the dark side. As we now see from anakin's story - the killing of the sith apprentice is justa test - the killer must then still be further seduced to the dark side after this act.

 

Just a comment on the orginal topic about the difference in the attitude of the Jedi fromt he PT to the OT. I was watching ESB the other day and I noticed when Yoda was teaching Luke about the nature of the Force and how to tap into it, Yoda was basically giving Luke a stripped down version of Force Philosophy and emphasising the Living Force over the Unifying Force by constantly reminding Luke to keep his mind on what he is doing here and now. Obi-wan did the same thing in ANH when he was telling Luke to pay attention to his feelings and letting the Force guide his actions.

In the PT the Jedi as a whole seem to be more concerned with the Unifying Force and the Prophecy of the Chosen One and they seemed to be very negative towards the philosophy of the Living Force which Qui-Gon was a proponent of. I think the Jedi ignoring or not emphasising their connection to living things and living beings kept them isolated to what was happening around them. That isolation I believe was one of the reasons they had trouble sensing the darkness.

In the OT both Obi-wan and Yoda were physically isolated from society but in their environments(on Dagobah and Tatooine) and in their training with Qui-gon they were able to be more connected and intuned to living things and the Living Force.

As for why they were training Luke, I do think they were training Luke to confront and kill Vader. I don't believe either Obi-wan or Yoda believed Anakin/Vader could be redeemed. And to be honest there was really nothing for Luke to base his hope for Vader's redemption on at that point in the story. It was not until after Luke allowed himself to be captured that we started to see that maybe Luke was right and Vader was/is conflicted.

If Vader is conflicted then there is good in him and he can be redeemed. I don't think Obi-wan or Yoda see Vader as a conflicted being. I think they see Vader as the reason for the Emperor's continued power. If Vader falls then the Emperor falls. If Luke is strong enough in the Light to face and defeat Vader then he will be strong enough to face and defeat the Emperor. I think this was their logic.


bran
_ThatJediScum_

 

I don't think it's simply a matter of "joining" the darkside.
I think Luke would have turned and Sidious would have manipulated Luke's
desires to do good by giving into his emotions and attachment to the Alliance.
It's much more complex than joining. One becomes.

 

No surprise to see Master Shaitan shedding his wisdom here

On the thread topic i want to add something i believe.

In the OT the Jedi spend a lot of time training Luke about controlling his emotions. IMO this is because they are fully aware of his attachments (his uncle and Aunt initially but then his friends) and the dangers those attachments have.

To me this is deliberate because they know this is what ultimately led to Anakins downfall and they need to address it with more urgency than they did with Anakin.

In ROTS Anakin is told to learn to let go of his attachments but it is too late by then. he is only looking for an answer which involves saving Padme and as we know Palps swoops.