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ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Canyon D, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    JabbatheHumanBeing - This will be your final warning... ever... about instigating your petty PT vs Films-You-Personally-Like squabbles. The next ban is due to be for a month, at this point. We are all thoroughly indoctrinated in your enlightened views on the PT and how grass is more interesting to you than alien landscapes and your deep, deep insights into what is quality cinematography. The trial is long over. The prosecution can rest. Don't bother replying. This is not open for debate and I am certain that I did not manage to stutter while typing.
     
  2. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I have no problems with either for myself.

    I agree that the overall look is excellent.

    No problems with it there.

    Not too wild about the "slo-mo" effect they use. I would like to know the thinking behind it. As far as I am aware off-hand that is the first time since ANH that sort of effect was used in a real duel besides the cave with Luke vs "Vader"

    Was that part of the overall "homage" to the multiple duels incorporated into this one from several duels in ROTS and ANH's I wonder?

    That is the thing though. It isn't near as easy as it should be. The situation as far as we know is a ultra powerful Force user vs a non-Force user. The whole point of duel between Force users (and the proficiency of the top end Jedi and Sith we see) is that they look like they have quick reflexes to what is happening because they can see things before they happen. The contest is as much about the Force user's mental and emotional capacity as physical. Those who "blink" in the Force are probably going to lose.

    From that perspective Finn should be like a blind man to Kylo or to Finn it would be like fighting the invisible man.

    There really should be no way Kylo Ren should be in any trouble at all from Finn. What was really odd to me was that earlier in the movie it was Finn vs a Stormtrooper who put him down in half the time it took Kylo Ren!

    Even from the first time I saw it and given every excuse to Kylo Ren from his injury to his anger to any effect from killing Han it's still far too long to me especially with that earlier exchange.

    My point is that while Kylo Ren is no Anakin or Dooku by any stretch he still is someone as pointed out before who is around 30, trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke and can freeze laser bolts etc etc.

    The set-up of Chewbacca's cross-bow was odd to me since we have that and Kylo Ren's laser freeze power. So I found it odd that suddenly Chewbacca's super powerful weapon now doesn't knock Kylo Ren off the catwalk, there are no reflexes from him either to block it with the saber or the Force. It's multiple things set-up with no connection.

    Very interesting observation.

    I sort of doubt it though as the less white cores are only in a few shots here and there.

    Maybe it has to do with matching the in camera look of their glowing lightsabers which they liked.

    Do you find it that the core is that different from Anakin/Vader using it in ROTS?
     
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  3. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Yeah, I guess the SE's had faded cores once in a while, perhaps not enough to base an entire look on. Although, if you watch the portion of the Luke/Vader duel where Vader is Force-hurling things at Luke, the blue lightsaber basically keeps switching from white core to faded core from shot to shot. That portion in particular is very inconsistent.

    But still, I'm not sure. There are a few shots here and there in the forest duel where the TFA lightsaber has a white core; but a majority of shots have the faded core.

    Like this shot looks fine:
    [​IMG]
    But then most of the Rey shots have the faded/color-bleeding core:
    [​IMG]
    Here is a comparison between ROTS & TFA for a shot in-motion, where we see that the ROTS lightsaber retains the white core while the TFA lightsaber again has the washed out core:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Interestingly, I noticed something else when comparing the "saber-locks" from ROTS to TFA. ROTS, as expected, has the cores looking white. But the TFA shot reveals two distinct colors in the core, which are sky-blue and white; that's really weird because the color is usually saved for the glow surrounding the core. I'm not sure why that particular TFA shot did it that way. But here's the comparison:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Comparing the ROTS & TFA lightsabers, another difference is in the actual color; the ROTS saber is a darker blue while the TFA lightsaber seems to be a lighter sky-blue. Perhaps this was done to factor in the color of the lightsaber in ANH:
    [​IMG]
    Also, I believe the TFA lightsabers were created in 3D, whereas the prequel lightsabers were 2D, and the OT lightsabers were optical 2D. I'm not sure how/if that factors into things, but I thought I'd throw that in there for completion's sake.

    As a whole, I prefer the way the TPM lightsabers look on the DVD (I think the Bluray's altered color-timing slightly messed things up) where the cores are white and the glow looks natural. The latter two prequels had white cores, but the glows didn't look real to me.

    For the OT, I liked the theatrical version of when Luke first ignites his lightsaber in Ben's hutt (Bluray on left, Team Negative 1's Silver Screen Edition on right):
    [​IMG]
    Other than that, the ANH saber shots looked pretty inconsistent. The theatrical TESB sabers were also pretty good and more consistent than the ANH ones. For ROTJ, I thought Luke's lightsaber was way too thick. And now, TFA has this color bleeding issue lol. How will they look in the next movie? Will they please all the nit-picky fans? Or will they anger everyone into turning to the dark side? Stay tuned next year kids for Star Wars: Episode 8!
     
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  4. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 14, 2015

    Understood. Though I thought we were having a rather cordial conversation about it, I get that comparisons of trilogies are off-limits. And as I mentioned:

    That said, it is a shame that talking about cinematography and design seems to be the hardest thing to do on a Star Wars board (given that these are core elements of the appeal of SW). I understand that's due to fan vitriol during the early 2000s tainting the subject (and ruining the ability to calmly discuss and critique the film), but it's a shame nonetheless. Not least because I didn't participate in those conversations back then.
     
  5. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    The length of the duel with Finn is driven entirely by Kylo's motivations, nothing else...I don't understand why you're ignoring this in favour of your imaginary RPG book. And further, you're completely misunderstanding the scene if you think Kylo Ren is in any trouble from Finn. The duration has literally nothing to do with the skill levels of either or your understanding of how the Force works for swinging swords around. The entire duel is much more about character development than flashing light swords twirling around.
     
  6. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Kylo Ren is toying with Finn. Plain and simple.
     
  7. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    In addition, when you look at Finn's one actual successful attack it's just as much due to Ren being cocky and sloppy as any particular skill on Finn's part. The speed with which Ren goes from 'duelling' Finn to utterly destroying him is pretty suggestive that if he'd been going all out right from the outset the same result would have occurred then.
     
  8. Conkhead_12

    Conkhead_12 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2016
    I mildly like is finishing move. Wielding it up, straigth through his spine.
     
  9. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    He is not messing around any more that much is for sure!
     
  10. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 18, 2015
    Kylo will be vicious in EP VIII. Mark my words.
     
  11. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Just like the Vader/Luke duel in ESB. Unless someone actually thinks that Luke stood a chance against him?
     
  12. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    In ANH , Luke is training how to use a lightsaber and goes from getting shot with a remote multiple times to being able to guard against the shots while his vision is obscured, merely by tapping into the Force.

    Luke: you mean it controls our actions?

    Obi-Wan: Partially. But it also obeys our command.

    The Force guided Luke when he otherwise could not see and likely had zero training in sword fighting, but he suddenly"knew" what to do, where to put the blade, how to put up his guard.

    Between ESB and ROTJ, Luke had grown much more powerful, despite having no additional training. He went from struggling with Vader to defeating him.

    I see nothing wrong with Rey beating Kylo. The point is that she's supposed to be immensely gifted in the Force, so much so that the trained Kylo fears her raw strength. He tried to probe her mind and she probed his.

    He has her on the run for much of their fight, but when she gives into the Force, doing what Maz told her to do earlier in the film, she taps into the Force and it guides her.

    Not only does Kylo get shot, but on two separate occasions the audience is reminded of his injury and he pauses and begins to strike at his side. So I'm sure that's a part of it. But he was also being cocky and toying with Finn. Turning his back to him even.

    Vader toyed with Luke too in ESB and Luke scored a hit on his arm. After that, Vader stopped fooling around and quickly wrapped up the fight, cutting off Luke's hand.

    It's the same here. Kylo could have killed Finn almost outright. He overpowered him early on and had him on the ground. But he stopped his offensive, turned away (a huge sign that he didn't really see Finn as a challenge) and struck his wound, allowing Finn to get up.

    He was toying with Finn, and like Luke, Finn got a hit in. Like Vader, Kylo got angry and quickly wrapped things up and dispatched of Finn after he was hit.



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  13. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2016
    I think the duel ranks pretty low on my list, but not because I don't like it. I just think that SW has a high number of outstanding duels. This one was entertaining, and exactly what I wanted to happen at the end of the movie, but it wasn't too much. Coming from two people who've probably never had any formal training.
     
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  14. The OCT

    The OCT Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2016


    Makes me think that Kylo is going to beat Rey pretty bad in this next episode. Maybe even a hand loss or something debilitating.
     
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  15. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    If they follow the pattern of the OT, VIII should be the gloomiest of the ST. And both Anakin and Luke lost their arm and hand respectively in the middle chapters.

    First chapter serves as introduction. Second has the heroes run into a setback/suffer a loss. Heroes overcome said obstacle in chapter three.

    I would anticipate that Kylo Ren is going to fair much better in Episode VIII and not be overcome by Rey, unless they deviate from this formula.

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  16. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    You say that, but the First Order succeeded in blowing up the capital of the New Republic, Ren took a massive step towards the Dark Side by murdering his own father, Finn was left critically wounded, Snoke did not seem overly phased by the loss of the superweapon, the top military commander of the First Order got clean away... only at the very end did Rey actually meet Luke with no indication he actually does have any way to deal with what's coming. Honestly, if the baddies manage to fare much better than that second time around things are going to get really very grim indeed.
     
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  17. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    TFA took influences from ANH, ESB, and ROTJ it does go from light hearted to grim, to victory all across the span of one movie, but so too does ANH.

    Owen and Beru are gruesomely killed, Alderaan is destroyed, Obi-Wan is killed (kind of), Luke's friend is shot down.

    I think the difference is that ANH was made with the possibility that ESB might never come to be, so it needed to be a self contained story. TPM is more light hearted, from Lucas' admission, because he knew AOTC and ROTS would be more serious.

    TFA was made with 100% certainty that VIII and IX would be too. So it ends on more of a cliffhanger than a celebration.

    But with ESB, it is more grim in that nothing goes good for the heroes.

    They are defeated at Hoth, Han and Leia are pursued by Vader and captured. Han is tortured to draw Luke to Bespin. Han is frozen and given to the bounty hunter who gets away. Luke abandons his training and confronts Vader prematurely to find out that his father is the guy that killed Obi-Wan and tortured his friend, and he gets his hand cut off. And the ending is a cliffhanger regarding the rescue of Han.

    AOTC is similar in that there's no real sense of victory for the heroes. It starts with Anakin struggling with his feelings. He's having nightmares about his mother. There's two assassination attempts on Padme's life. Anakin watches his mom die. Anakin slaughters Tusken men, women and children. Obi-Wan doesn't discover the truth behind the Clone army, Anakin loses his arm. The film ends with the villains patting themselves on the back and Yoda outright saying that there's no victory because they failed to prevent a war.

    TFA goes through a variety of tones, and takes inspiration from all the OT films.

    Hero comes from a desert planet and has to get a droid back to the Rebel Alliance (Resistance). We find out the villain and a hero are related. The murder scene on Star killer base is aesthetically similar to the "I am your father" scene on Cloud City. Rey defeating Kylo Ren is similar to Luke beating Vader. There's a giant planet destroying sphere.

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  18. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    True enough. But for me, the First Order can't realistically go any bigger or badder than a weapon that destroys planets on the other side of the galaxy, so the logical answer is presumably to make it smaller and more focussed - in a similar way to how Vader was more of a personal, hands-on threat than the Empire in general for most of ESB. Ren vs. Rey is due a rematch, likewise it seems fair to guess that there will be a stormtrooper showdown between Finn and Phasma at some stage.
     
  19. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    I would anticipate a more personal story, yeah. Not another super weapon. ANH and ROTJ both had the full scale attacks on the two Death Stars. But ESB was more focused solely on the characters. The big battle scene happened early rather than being the climax. For most of the film, Vader wasn't out to crush the Rebellion, he was just after the Millennium Falcon to get to Luke, and Luke was in training with Yoda.

    TFA ended with Rey, Chewie and R2 being with Yoda, while Poe, Leia, BB-8 and Finn are with the Resistance.

    Kylo Ren never did read Rey's mind, and he never acquired BB-8. So I wouldn't be surprised if much of 8's story has the heroes separated as in ESB, with Kylo Ren going after the Resistance heroes.

    I'm not too keen on them just copying the OT formula so closely, but I wouldn't be surprised.

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  20. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2015
    The other alternative is possibly to open it right up and really delve into who or what Snoke is and what his long term plan really entails. Leia and Han were the returnees of Episode VII, this model of thought would suggest VIII focusses on Luke most of the original trio. It depends on whether they decide to take a few more chances now they've got an established audience or do they stick to formula. I hope for the former and the choice of director is suggestive of a more character driven movie than an action spectacle but we won't really be able to piece much together just yet.
     
  21. Dave Hoffman

    Dave Hoffman Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2012
    I'm sure that was the idea, although it does redact the lore. As if saying, "You know all of that stuff over the last 40 years about academies, and masters, and dedicated mental and physical training for many years, and all that stuff? Yea, that's a huge boring waste of time, you just need to let the Force in and you're good to go from day 1." As a purist, I'm not a big fan of that. Or that anyone can pick up a light saber and fight with it like it was just another ordinary weapon.
    --
    As for the duel, I thought it was pretty bad for a couple reasons.

    1) They made Kylo out to be a badass from the start. He killed all of Luke's aspiring Jedi, he trained under both Master Skywalker and Snoke, his skills with the Force were unprecedented, and his mission and obsession was apparently to hunt down and kill Luke. If Snoke didn't think he could rival Luke, I wouldn't think he'd task him with the mission of finding Luke. So I viewed him on the same level as like a Darth Maul. Then he loses to a novice. Conceptually, I thought that made the duel pretty bad and inconceivable.

    Or maybe it did make some sense after the fact. Bloodline has Kylo being 23 years old when he started Jedi training under Luke. So by the time of TFA, he's only been at it for 6 years. He's pretty much a padawan learner. Of course, that goes against how the movie leads us to believe that he's some heavily trained and powerful warrior. Turns out he never was. Even though it looks like they're still making it up as they go, it does retroactively make the duel slightly more believable.

    2) Rey doesn't know how to sword fight. No skillful parry and counters, no forms or techniques, all the maneuvers she uses are thrusts and overhand slashes. That would make perfect sense. Those are the maneuvers that I would also use, since I also don't know how to sword fight. Even after she goes on the offensive in the duel, that's still all she does. Except now the skilled Kylo somehow can't parry such basic and telegraphed attack moves, as if he's the novice. That added to the unbelievability of the whole thing.

    Overall, I'd slot it 2nd worst, above old Obi-Wan -vs- Vader. I did think the dark snowy environment was a great looking setting for a lightsaber fight, though. :)
     
  22. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Good points, Hoffman.

    I have a lot of sympathy for this thinking.

    They need to be careful with "the Force did it" explanations. They're pretty weak and don't go a long way with me.

    But omg CT wat about Luke in ANH? Yeah, that was the first time we saw a novice use the Force. That was our first journey of believing in the Force and learning how to use it.

    It's been like forty years since then, and Star Wars has come a long way.

    Fortunately, I'm pretty sure VIII will involve Luke putting Rey through some seriously hardcore Rocky training. I'm expecting lots of no handed Force push-ups.
    [​IMG]

    Daisy has an incredible energy that bursts through the screen, so it should be great. They need to tell Daisy the same thing George told Mark and Hayden. Get shredded. Think Rambo. Daisy already has a great body, but she needs to think bigger, she needs to eat bigger. Nothing but pre-packaged chicken breast and asparagus, eight times a day. She's gotta learn to love the smell of asparagus urine. And she needs to start carrying around a gallon jug of water.

    Can't wait for the Frank Stallone training song. Yeah. Frank Stallone.


    I'd put it above Palpatine vs Mace/Jedi Masters and NEW Obi-Wan vs Anakin.
     
  23. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Are you really a purist when TFA is a return to the original representation of the Force? There's a certain irony there, in that your supposed purism derives from deviation away from the original. Ben's lesson to Luke wasn't to study more, it was to trust his instincts and to let go. Yoda was all about self-belief and letting the force flow through you. None of that indicated one had to spend years training and none of that indicated "dedicated mental and physical training" to do so.

    I find it funny that the main complaint about the duel is still really only the ending, ie, who beats who. It really winds people up. And yet the RPG approach that rationalises why Rey shouldn't beat Kylo is the same as can be applied to most of the duels. Kenobi should not have beaten Maul. Dooku should not have beaten Yoda. Anakin should not have beaten Dooku. Kenobi should not have beaten Anakin. Luke should not have beaten Vader etc. It's like you've forgotten that this is a story and not a game of Top Trumps...
     
  24. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Nobody said she didn't need training. That's exactly where she was headed at the end of the film, to be trained.

    Kylo Ren even addressed it with Snoke, saying she's untrained but stronger than she knows.

    We don't know what Rey is or what her deal is. We just know she's abnormal.

    Anakin was "the Chosen One" and his abilities developed rapidly, even eclipsing those of people that invested a lot more time training than he did. Thirteen years a Jedi and he surpasses Dooku, who had trained his whole life.

    Luke receives Jedi training for what sums up to probably a few days and he surpasses Vader.

    Rey has no training and she surpasses Kylo whose training is not complete.

    We don't really know how much training Kylo actually has and how much of it is natural talent.

    Han says that there was a lot of "Vader in him" from the start. It's possible that Luke was taking things really slow with him until he could get Ben in the right frame of mind. Then Snoke takes over Kylo's training, but the last line of Snoke's suggests that he had unleashed Kylo Ren before his training was completed.

    After Rey reads Kylo's mind, he goes to report that to Snoke and requests more training, saying he can still get the information from her with guidance from Snoke, but instead Snoke offers no guidance and wants Rey brought to him.

    Kylo Ren was powerful, but it's established that he's still in training.

    Rey is stronger via natural talent.

    In the grand scheme of things I don't see that as much different than Luke being trained for such a short period (and abandoning his training no less) and growing powerful enough to defeat Vader who was trained for 13 years as a Jedi and another 23 as a Sith.

    Sure Luke received some training, but at the end of the day he was his natural talent that allowed him to win.

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  25. Zurros Ka

    Zurros Ka Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2015
    Tell that to Yoda: 'A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind.'
     
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