ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

If that makes no sense then Luke's performance on Cloud City makes no sense. During the duel in the freezing chamber we see him retrieving his saber with the force, no problem. But when Vader starts moving pieces of hardware at him, he is suddenly all at sea. He barely senses these slow moving objects and can't anticipate their trajectory in order to make a decent block, never mind use the force to repel or deflect them, or turn them against Vader. After that he's continually on the back-foot. It just shows that it doesn't matter if you can pull it off once. When you are filled with doubt and fear, and without the discipline and the deepest commitment and faith in the force as that which gives you strength, then you are likely to be just as vulnerable as someone with no aptitude at all when it matters.

And if your opponent becomes empowered with the anger and hatred at the moment that your faith is as weak as you have become physically during the duel up to that point then you had better hope that person is not compelled to fulfill that righteous fury.

 

I don't think the Kylo vs Rey duel really compares to Luke vs Vader. There is just no way on Earth (or Bespin for that matter) that Rey should have been able to defeat Kylo. End of. There is also no way Luke should have been able to defeat Vader, and he never. The TFA duel actually would have been much better if it was paced like the TESB duel and had the more experienced character winning. At their core, they're basically the same, a new but strong force user takes on a strong in the dark side, vastly superior and more experienced foe. The Luke vs Vader duel works perfectly as we see all the aspects of the characters skill that we are supposed to - Vader is surprised by Luke's strength given his lack of training and is actually put on the back foot briefly, then he has to knuckle down and unleash his anger. When he does he completely overpowers Luke easily, it makes sense.

Then there is the TFA duel. Rey doesn't even have a few days on Dagoba the way Luke did. She just suddenly becomes proficient in lightsaber combat which is frustrating given that almost every other proficient lightsaber user in SW history has only become so after years of training. The injury to Kylo means nothing, it doesn't suddenly mean that Rey teaching herself to wield a lightsaber makes sense. The only way I could ever be alright with the TFA duel, and not class it as by far the worst duel in any of the movies is IF, and it's a big IF, is if Rey is actually a Jedi who Luke has mind wiped to protect her from those seeking to destroy her, which also makes the force lie dormant within her. That really is the only way the duel and her winning it can make any sense whatsoever. If it turns out that isn't the case, and Rey really has just grown up on Jakku etc then the duel is beyond ridiculous and I for one, will be done with this trilogy.

For now though I can wait and hope, but judging the TFA duel with only the information I have now from that movie, it's actually an insult to other duels and the whole lore regarding lightsaber training and combat.

 

I'm so relieved to finally have the definitive answer.

You do understand that Kylo Ren is not in Vader's league and that this is actually a central theme in the movie, right?

 

Artoo-Dion Although I doubt your question can actually be serious I'll answer it anyway. Of course I am aware of the central theme surrounding Kylo Ren. It changes absolutely nothing concerning the duel at all, or anything I have said. Again if we are to assume for the time being that Rey is what she is portrayed as in the movie and not a Jedi with amnesia, then Kylo Ren is still much, much more powerful than her and has been trained for years in the dark side of the force. You do understand that regardless of Kylo not being in Vader's league in absolutely no way explains why Rey becomes proficient with a lightsaber with no training, right?

 

Why? What makes Kylo Ren infallible?

 

This came up in another thread and I had to step in and correct it.
Luke did NOT have years of training. As you said, he spent a very short amount of time with Yoda.
A few weeks to maybe 1-2 months at most. The time between ESB and RotJ was at most a couple of months.
So Luke had LESS THAN A YEAR's worth of training and yet he beat very experienced Vader. Who was conflicted and possibly wasn't giving it his best.
And yet, that short amount of training and practice was apparently enough to make him a Jedi Knight.
So Luke did in less than a year, something that normally took two decades and in the case of his father, one decade.

And take ANH, Luke had never used a lightsaber before and yet we see him practicing and he is able to block some shots from the remote after what, a couple of minutes worth of using the weapon?
And unlike Rey, we don't have scenes that show that he is skilled with melee weapons and has spent years fighting of people that try to kill him or enslave him.
Luke has a rifle and so he would know how to shoot. But in terms of being the best hand to hand or melee fighter, I would say that Rey is likely better than him. ANH Luke that is.
Simply because her world is much nastier and harsher than Tatooine.
That she is still alive, alone as she is, shows that she is quite capable.

To sum up, Rey picks things up unusually fast yes. But so does Luke.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

As Ric Olié would've told them:

 

Not at all.

Yes. Luke picks up things fast but it still takes him time.

Rey doesn't pick things up.

She just does them pretty much next to instantly.

That is quite different.

In that she is far more like Anakin.

No doubt a 19 year old Anakin could do things far more like Rey does naturally but I still don't think there is anything to show that it would be quite like that.

On the other hand Kylo Ren in comparison is a total inept moron of the first water and the First Order as well.

 

How much time would you say passed from when Luke first heard of the force from Obiwan to when he used it to destroy the Death Star without using a targeting computer?

 

3-4 Days most likely.
Tatooine itself, traveling to Alderaan and traveling to Yavin. Could be wrong. Maybe less.

 

So not a bad effort then.

 

Assuming that they left Tatooine the same day. I think that the radio drama or novel had them stay somewhere over night before making it to Mos Eisley.
And assuming that traveling to the core and back takes about a day. Could have been longer or shorter. The time on the Death Star must have been a couple hours only.
Just training on the way there. Not sure what he could have done on the way to Yavin. Also depends on what Obi-Wan could have told him on the way to Mos Eisley.

Still pretty fast imo.

 

You know, I honestly can't blame some people who were displeased with the way things were handled in TFA. Maybe they wanted to see the act of gaining the skills necessary to become a Jedi Knight be a bit more...difficult. Especially considering the grievances people had with that in the OT.

 

I can understand people taking issue with it in both the OT and TFA, but I struggle to see how TFA demonstrates anything that we haven't already seen in SW in this regard.

 

Rey did catch on quick. But, then again, so did Luke. When each of them started learning of the Force, their innate abilities were enhanced.

Luke, before learning about the Force, used to bulls-eye womp rats in his T-16. So he was already a pretty good pilot and a good shot. And when he tapped into the Force, this enabled him to hit the winning shot to blow up the Death Star; so the Force enhanced something he was already pretty good at.

Rey, before learning about the Force, used to fight people on Jakku with her staff (and who knows what other weapons). So she's already pretty good at fighting with weapons. And when she tapped into the Force, this enabled her to duel better with her laser sword to defeat her clearly-injured foe; so the Force enhanced something she was already pretty good at.

Admittedly, Rey started off being "pretty good" at a lot of different things. So the question becomes: has she become an overpowered hero? Well, we'll have to see how she does against a fresh & fully-trained Kylo as well as Snoke. But, hypothetically, even if she ends up being overpowered, I doubt the writers would just let the tension dissolve like that; her overpowered-ness, should that end up being the case, may be a crucial plot element in the overarching story. This was done in the PT as well with Anakin being born with a Force potential even greater than Yoda's; and that ended up being an important plot point because he was the Chosen One. The difference between Anakin and Rey though is that we are told of the former's power through a quantified blood test whereas we are shown of the latter's power through actions. Both approaches have had their criticisms, but I prefer the "showing" method.

 

Thank you.

Well...she sort of has to get her ass kicked because:
a) there's still a huge disparity of skill between them through time and circumstance alone.
b) they made Ben seem supremely incompetent in areas where he shouldn't have been (the interrogation scene).
c) he was injured when she fought him so I'd imagine he's learned from the mistake of leaving himself vulnerable in combat...hopefully. For the sake of urgency and danger, I hope he seems more experienced.

 

Most characters seem to have a very incompetent view of reality in Star Wars. I mean the Jedi lost an entire planet because someone deleted it from their computer.

Vader for example interrogated Leia with a droid and she still lied to him. Note how Tarkin was surprised?

In both cases over reliance on technology bested them and there are many more where that came from.

 

From everything that I've grown up watching, reading, and playing, I've always thought that becoming a Jedi was a very time consuming and difficult task. And that being proficient with a saber started with a deep knowledge and attunement with the Force, followed by endless practice in various lightsaber forms. From that mountain of lore, I concluded that what I witnessed in TFA was borderline get-up-and-leave ridiculous.

Over the months, I've softened my stance. I'm slowly accepting that new SW is redacting and changing the rules. For one, lightsabers aren't nearly as powerful. Kylo got sliced across the shoulder, stabbed, whacked across the leg, and took a blade to the face. He was still in one piece. Finn got sliced up his spine and is still alive. I'm still trying to figure out how that would immediately put someone in a coma, but, whatever. So they seemed to video-game it, where it takes many strikes to kill someone with a lightsaber now.

Secondly, anyone can fight with a lightsaber now. Finn didn't know what it was, but he still fired it up and fought with it. Not very well, but he seemed to show that there's no learning curve at all with swinging a hilt-heavy weapon with a weightless blade. Later, Rey does the same with no trouble. I recently saw in a comic (from Nov 2015), of Han and Chewie fighting with light sabers too. Chewy was even duel-wielding. I'm left to believe that the order had apparently been handed down to turn the lightsaber into nothing more than a stick with a glowy end, that anyone could fight competently with, with no special training required.

So in the context of new SW, I now find it much more believable that Rey could defeat Kylo. After all, she's presumably a very good melee fighter with a staff, and a lightsaber is a stick... same thing, no difference. Her years of experience in melee fighting seem to be on par with Kylo's melee skills, and since he chooses not to use the Force, they're on a virtual even playing field making it plausible she could defeat him.

I'm trying.

 

Han could fight Tauntaun blubber with one for 36 years.

 

But I have to ask, wasn't the OT part of what you grew up watching etc?
In the OT, Luke's time with Yoda is quite short, a few weeks, a month or two at most.
And yet he learns ALL he needs to know to become a Jedi Knight.
Had Luke ever sparred with a lightsaber against someone else?
The films don't say and it seems unlikely.
So when he fights Vader, this is first fight against an opponent that have a lightsaber.

To sum up, Luke becomes a Jedi with less than a year's worth of instruction and practice.

@Qui-Riv-Brid

How long time did it take for Luke to be able to block bolts from the remote in ANH?
Using his eyes, not the Force.
A couple of minutes.
How long time did it take Luke to learn how to use the gunner system in the MF?
A few seconds.

Rey is able to fight with a lightsaber very quickly. But she has had quite a bit of experience using other melee types of weapons and she is a skilled fighter.
So she picks this up quickly.

@Force Smuggler

The travel time to Alderaan from Tatooine seemed very short.
They jump into hyperspace, cut. Then we have Han come in and say that they've outrun the imperials. This could not have been all that long after the jump.
After Han enters, we have the whole remote scene and it ends with Han saying , "looks like we're coming up on Alderaan."

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

It doesn't have to take long to train the force or a lightsaber because it is not so much about learning a physical moveset, rather a state of serenity in which you let the force in. It then enhances abilities you already had (like piloting for Luke) and allows you to do wondrous things. But it still seems very doubtful/extremely implausible that an emotionally distraught n00b can beat a warrior who has trained in the force for over a decade. Just how did she manage to reach the zen-like state? She was a miserable thrash peddler before. Are you telling me she has Jedi-master zen by nature? Is it now enough to just surrender yourself to the force to win against a far more advanced opponent? It seems way too easy and cheap to me and turns the force into an "I win" card.

Sure Luke also won in ROTJ but that was because he also fought a mental battle with his father. It wasn't really about the physical battle.

 

Time machine.

 

I think it's time to stop perceiving the choices made in 77, 80, 83 and so on with regard to setting up and paying off certain aspects of the force and Jedi within the time and production constraints of each of the different stories told and in each trilogy as if it were some sort of timetable or calendar of orthodoxy. There seems to be a tendency for people to look at their watches in order to determine a character's worth compared to a previous character's story, ignoring the fact that we are being a told a different story.

Certain things happened in SW and ESB because the aim was to introduce new concepts to the audience. The continuing movies aren't tied in to those conditions so to abbreviate them seems to undermine Luke's experience, but that is not the case. Rey is having a different experience, one which is not required to faithfully observe the timetable and structure of Luke's and is providing us with a novel and compelling story in spite of and because of its seeming irreverence towards the familiar story.

 

Correct. It lasts about five minutes.

First Luke is hopeless. Then he's blindfolded. Says he can't possibly do it. Obi Wan disagrees. He does it. Arrival at Alderran.

This gives the audience a glimpse into the enigmatic nature of the force. For me, it's a bit of a stretch to say that the conditions, props and the personnel featured in this scene are the bare minimum requirement before any emerging character can be allied by the force before the middle of their second film appearance.

 

I ask you how it furthers the tension and engagement if a n00b force user can beat what is played up to be the main baddie in the first movie.
I can't identify with that because in real life when I try something hard, I usually make a ton of mistakes.