ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

On the whole, the OT provided but a small piece of the picture, didn't it? Back then, we didn't know much about the Jedi. Just that they were the guardians of the old Republic, that Obi Wan and Luke's father were Knights, that Master Yoda had trained Jedi for 800 years, and that the lightsaber was the weapon of the Jedi. I think that's all that the OT mentioned. So at the time, it seemed that becoming a Jedi Knight was as simple as having a connection with the Force, learning about it, doing some physical conditioning, and moving objects around with telekinesis. There didn't seem to be too much involved.

But, the path of the Jedi was heavily expanded and fleshed out since then. We learned of temples, padawans, training, councils, trials, and all the other things detailed in EU, video games and the PT. It never contradicted the OT. Luke was taught what the younglings in the temple were taught (among many other things), except they started much younger and progressed in phases. It retroactively showed that Luke received a crash course of the essentials due to the circumstances.

Looking at the big picture, I don't think that Luke was that powerful or even that great of a swordsman. Not compared to the saber skills or Force abilities of Knights, Masters or Sith in the PT. He did defeat Vader, but Vader clearly was a sluggish shell of his former self when it came to sword fighting (compared to the quick and agile Anakin in RotS). The suit and robotic limbs hampered him, evident by his stalemate against an elderly and slow Kenobi. I think that Luke would easily be dispatched of in short order by anyone from the PT. That would make perfect sense to me. They were trained since childhood, while Luke got minimal training starting at a later age, then was kind of on his own to figure it out.

With Rey, I hope they give some plausible explanation that would make me say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhh, ok," and be fully accepting of how that duel played out. For an OT analogy, it would be like the whole Dagobah scenes never happened, and Luke just went from Hoth to go fight Vader on Bespin. I think a number of people would balk at him leaping from a training remote to being able to fight Vader. At least with the Dagobah training, it gave a level of credence to his ability to fight him. Rey didn't really have that, which was a big source of my issues with it... until I skewed my thinking a little to be more accepting of it. I'm still rooting for a mind-wipe explanation, though.

 

This is unfortunate. I've seen your softened stance, and I rather believed a lot of it was genuine sarcasm. The suggested similarity between the staff, and the lightsaber is saddening. If I remember correctly, you once quite aptly stated that The Force Awakens suffers from a case of beginner's expertise. Not only with Rey, but also with Poe and his ability to fly a foreign craft. But I've never had much interest in Poe's feat.

I am amazed at how your perception of this fight could shift so dramatically, but intellectually I am not surprised. It is sensible that any Star Wars fan still here is searching for ways to accept flaws. I've never in my life seen so many people who like the prequels as I have here.

TFA has always had a hard time reconciling the background of its characters, and the result of its lightsaber duel. Finn is a 99th percentile trained from birth soldier familiar with melee weaponry. He had a lightsaber experience, Rey did not. The lightsaber being a special weapon, helps, the plausibility of the fight; as it would be beneficial for Rey to be using a weapon particularly suited for someone of her force sensitive inclination.

There isn't much to say that hasn't been said. I too am hoping for a coherent solution.

 

Oh, I wouldn't say that my opinions have changed that much from the past. I borrowed the DVD from my parents recently to give it another try, and all the issues I had with it after my first viewing, most of which I still have. I like every other SW production, so I'm trying to like this movie on some level, since it really bugs me that I don't.

I've always been enthralled with the Jedi since ANH. I've spent countless hours reading any and all material related to the Order. Fascinated by it. I've read about how the lightsaber works, and not to go into detail, but it all paints a picture that without training, you'd be fighting the saber itself more than you would your opponent, and have a good chance of doing harm to yourself. Or course, that's derived from the EU which isn't necessarily canon anymore.

If the storygroup wants to take a unique weapon that requires much training, and turn it into a generic stick that requires no training... it is what it is. I might not like it, I might think that it tarnishes the lore, but I can either grudgingly accept change, or continue to be bitter about it and probably not like the next movies either from its (opinion) dumbing down of established concepts.

As a big Star Wars fan, I really want to like the future films. If I need to be more tolerant of things in order for that to happen, I'll try it. I still have my limits, though. I'm hoping that JJ went with a safe paint-by-numbers action money-maker movie to not kick this thing off on the wrong foot. Now that that's out of the way, I'm hoping the future films are more story-telling adventure like the previous 6. And yes, still hoping for a coherent solution myself, that won't require much mental gymnastics to rationalize anything.

And don't get me started on Finn. I still wonder why Han would have to tell a 99th percentile trained since birth soldier what an explosive looks like. I can't rationalize that one.

 

That's what made the lightsaber rather unique for me. You're essentially trading the conventional balance and "familiarity" of a vibroblade for something more compact and powerful which explains why the Jedi are so strong in the first place. They have to compensate for the hilt-heaviness with their own training and skills.

This is why Finn in The Force Awakens reminds me less of the Finn we see in Before the Awakening and more of Slip.

 

Talos156: Yeah Rey was too good with the force despite having no training. If she would have been trained to be that good it would have been alright but the way it is now is just stupid.

Visivious Drakarn: Exactly she grew too strong with the force in just one movie it felt unrealistic and rushed. I hope that Kylo will beat Rey, that could be an opportunity for Luke to show his Jedi skills, that would be interesting.

 

^^ agreed Ewok. Although hopefully the writers will realise just how contradictory it was to have Rey lightsaber proficient so quickly and address it with a sufficient alternative background for her than the one we assume to be true at the moment. Her being a Jedi who has been mind wiped by Luke is the most obvious one.

 

I bet if that were to happen, its advocates would then cry foul at the unoriginal and predictable route they took. Thankfully, I don't see it happening, it's unlikely that they'll introduce some hackneyed device just to satiate a handful of fanboys. Same goes for the awful reincarnation or embodiment of the Force theories, which all seem focused around trying to rationalise why a naturally talented girl beat a wounded man...

 

I rank it as my least favorite... sorry. just didn't make sense how a sith lord lost to an untrained jedi and a storm trooper

 

Kylo isn't a Sith Lord.
Also, Chewie's Bowcaster

 

It seems to me that there's some sort of expectation or unwritten rule amongst some fans that a trained darksider (even if not at the top of his game) cannot be beaten by anyone not trained in the special means of taking out such a foe. They are end-of-level bad guys who require one to push the right series of buttons in order to defeat their bonus power.

If you've ever played The Secret of Monkey Island, then you remember "insult sword fighting", where the winner of the fight is the one with the sharpest wit. If you can counter an insult, you can counter a blow. This is how duels in Star Wars proceed, with a focused connection to the Force (light, dark or otherwise) replacing humour. Vader defeats Luke because he has complete mastery of the Force, eventually demoralising Luke by overwhelming him; Luke then defeats Vader by channelling the Force in such a primal way that he overcomes Vader. Obi-Wan defeats Maul by calling upon the Force suddenly and surprisingly.

The duel in TFA takes its cues from the duels in ROTJ and TPM. The Force is the deciding factor, and (as in TPM) an arrogant foe is taken by surprise in the final moments.

 

While seeing her be a lost apprentice of Luke's would be interesting, those reincarnation theories can go burn in a dumpster fire. **** that ****.

The only thing I really find to be a tad crap as far as superiority goes, it was in the interrogation scene. I was fine with the defeat due to Ben being torn open by a bowcaster shot to the ribs. It really doesn't say anything about Rey's skills or his. That was just unfortunate circumstance and she may as well have gotten out of that situation by the skin of her teeth.

I mean, if we're being entirely honest, Mandalorian bounty hounters that were on Jango Fett's level (think Legends Death Watch in Open Seasons) could have kicked Ben's ass in a real fight even without his injuries. He stands even less of a chance against Republic-era Knights.

 

Actually, the Jango/Obi-Wan fight was something I thought about the other day. Obi-Wan got taken out by a dude with gadgets. Later, some droids and bugs take him out. Being a trained Force user is no guarantee of success.

 

EDIT: By the way, these are some beautifully drawn action scenes. Perfectly laid out and clear.

Artoo-Dion This part of Open Seasons comes to mind.

Also, there's that moment at 2:01.

 

idk where this idea that only a trained force user can use a lightsaber without hurting themselves and that it's absurd that finn can even turn one on comes from.

if we're going by that logic than nobody should be using real life swords lol. what does force ability have to do with accidentally choping yourself with a sword? if lightsabers were real i guarantee you i could wield one.

 

Mostly because a lightsaber has a blade you can't feel and can't control much, all of the weight is in the handle so you're actually having to predict where the blade is going to be by feel and instinct, which is unlike real swords where you can feel the momentum of the actual blade. (So Han being unable to cut up a corpse is one thing, fighting against someone with actual training is a different story entirely.) It can be learnt by muggles but it's much, much easier to do when you have the Force giving you a helping hand.

 

Although George used to instruct the actors in the OT that the saber had weight.

 

Again, literally citing a man whose opinions change like the ebb and flow of the tides.

 

The point being that the original on-screen portrayal was not of a weightless weapon but of a sword with heft. You can see it in the OT and you can see it in TFA. The idea that it's too light to be handled well by non-Force users isn't supported by on-screen evidence. Luke on the Falcon is wielding it with zero training in the Force initially and yet manages to keep his limbs intact.

 

Artoo-Dion Weightnessless of the blade or the entire saber? Big difference.

 

How does it change my argument? Obviously the hilt has heft, but the question is whether or not the weapon is too light to be handled by unskilled users without extreme danger.

Edit: Let me add that the main utility of the lightsaber for Force users vs. non-Force users seems to be in terms of blaster fire. A Jedi can wield a saber and use it as both a shield and melee weapon simultaneously because of Force-led anticipation. A Jedi is much more deadly with a saber than with a blaster; the average person is much less effective with one.

 

The danger isn't weightlessness of the entire weapon in the case I'm talking about. It's balance. Judging momentum would be difficult due to the blade not having any heft while the hilt has all of the weight.

 

Where is this demonstrated on-screen in any of the movies or TCW? What we have seen is untrained and unskilled characters wielding one without problem. Luke uses one. Han uses one. And look here, at around 1:48:

 

I'm just saying what the argument is. Not stating that it's true for a lot of Star Wars media.

Also, "surfer dude" Quinlan Vos. Blegh.

 

I understand a lightsaber is way different from a real sword in terms of weight but it's something that finn or han or finn or grievous or anyone could adjust to. being clumsy gets you hurt with a lightsaber because it is a lethal weapon. force abilities don't factor into it. not knowing the force puts you at a disadvantage with force powers but it doesn't forbid you from being good with a lightsaber in general.

 

OK, and I do get the nuance of momentum, etc. due to the blade itself being weightless. But I just think it's an unwarranted assumption based on the thought that light has no weight; however, it's a fantasy series where there is no real explication regarding how lightsabers actually work or what they feel like when being handled--maybe some part of the mechanism has a side effect of projecting weight into the blade? After all, artificial gravity exists in the GFFA.

In any case, this idea that non-Force users are unable to effectively wield a lightsaber due to its blade being weightless strikes me as received wisdom based on fan assumptions that are actually contradicted on screen prior to TFA.