ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Perhaps that was intentional? Can't have her being a saber pro right out of the gate, especially when people were already uncomfortable with her ability to use mind tricks so quickly.

 

As we've already said, Rey's wacking and biting establishes a lack of fighting ability. You argued that Kylo only wacks an old man in the movie and that's it, which is a laughable argument. Now you're saying even though we DO have a lot of reason to believe Kylo's ability, you're saying that it doesn't even matter.

Much better argument here, thank you.

However, most viewers don't know that because they haven't read the novels. I didn't know that either. But now that I know, it leaves me even more confused as to why they failed to establish any of the things you mentioned in the film. Just a second or two of screen time showing her practice form would have been easy to do, but they failed to do it. And there was a lot of opportunity to put that in compared to the other scenes we see of Rey's solitude on Jakku.

I understand movies can't include everything from the novels, but a basic requirement for a good movie means it can stand on its own without having to reach elsewhere for help.

Edit: To me, I imagine the Rey I have been introduced to on screen and the Rey that is in the novels are two characters that have some major differences, which is one reason why I don't read stories that also have films, and if I have read a book I usually don't go see the movie.

 

She looked formidable to me. Geesh


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Agreed. If I were to take Rey on a date I would certainly keep my hands to myself.

 

I wouldn't. You are a pooper.


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Thanks.

Yeah, there's quite a lot of stuff. I only follow a handful of things.

My theory is that they though the scene of her thrashing the thugs was enough to establish her as a good melee fighter (whether that was correct or not). I'm also guessing that they thought showing her isolation was more important, since that's what her characterization is built on.

(There could be also some subjectivity to how we see her fighting skills? When watching the movie, I took her fighting to be overall pretty good -- except for her first time round with the lightsaber, which was pretty clumsy. I'm not a martial arts expert, thought, so I could be wrong.)

I also know for a fact that the practice scene in the junior novelization was invented by author Michael Kogge late in the game. (Short version from an interview in Star Wars Insider: Kogge's book was originally published in ebook format and contained nothing that wasn't in the movie. For the hardcover/paperback release, Kogge wound up adding some extra scenes of his creation, one of them being the practice scene. However, even then the practice was incidental, since the focus was on Rey waking up from what she thought was a nightmare and the character beats that ensued.)

That's the tricky tightrope Star Wars has to walk with the "everything is canon" model.

Since novelizations are written while the movie is in production (and are the interpretation of the in-progress script by the author), there will be a few things that don't quite mesh up. We do know that the ones from TFA onwards are canon, but they're kind of squishy because of the realities that not everything can match up. Sometimes the different novelizations have inconsistencies between each other and other books, too. It's just an unavoidable part of the industry. (Personally, I tend to cobble together the different sources together to create the "master" version of the story in question, using the movie as the yardstick for what everything must conform to and best guess when there's no clear answer to the discrepancy).

I do find differences between movies and novelizations a little annoying, but they sometimes add things that make the movie more enjoyable. Extra scenes not in the movie can make the work seem a little bit bigger than it did onscreen. There's also the fact that books can present character thoughts a lot easier than a film can. Case in point, I'm currently reading the Rogue One novelization. It gets into Jyn Erso's head a lot, making a lot of the dramatic scenes in the movie take new meaning, since we have an even better idea of what she was feeling during said scenes (I was actually quite off).

For what it's worth, I think the TFA junior novelization and Rey's Story and Finn's Story novelizations are pretty close in characterization with the movies. The adult novel was a little off, IMHO, but still worth reading for the additional world building.

 

I do think the duel is inconsistent in the sense that the odds should have been heavily stacked against the possibility of Rey winning, or at least against her doing well. Trying to apply rules and in-universe logic to it is probably not going to yield any pleasing explanation to those looking for one, however I would suggest that 'The Force' is the explanation. I very much got the sense that the moment the force theme played as their lightsabers were locked at the edge of that cliff was the moment the force 'awakened' in Rey, giving her the sudden stength to go from decently able warrior to Jedi type levels of dueling ability.

As others have pointed out, the duels are terribly inconsistent in the entire saga. Look at the drastic difference in ability between Dooku in eps II and III, where he goes from Yoda type ability to something far less in power, or Vader between IV and V, where he undergoes the reverse transformation.

I think these duels are primarily conceived to suit the desired thematic outcome of the story, and are not anchored so heavily in a set of rules that govern how combat ought to go based on skill, experience and proficiency of the protagonists and antogonists.
That is probably the case with the Rey/Ren duel. It works for people like me who fully bought and invested in Rey as a compelling hero from the outset. If you were on the fence, or took a disliking to the character, I can see how that would grate, and why the inconsistencies would seem so obvious.

 

I don't think anybody is disputing that she "let it in" (the force) and that gave her force enhanced abilities. The problem is
1. The amount of power: way too much
2. The journey to that power: way too soon and without any serious adversity

At that point, she became a character you imagined playing with your Star Wars figures as "the almighty powerful". As a kid, it is all you need in a character. Shortly thereafter (even before adulthood), you find the serious problems with that character. The drama is gone. Invincibility makes them boring. I'd compare it to the Emperor v. Emperor possessed clone. The Emperor is an amazing character, due to his power and cunning. But ti isn't without drama. All through the prequels, he could have been found out too early. He was powerful, but not enough to simply go kill all the Jedi at once, while also putting the entire galaxy under his foot. He had to create diversions, thin out numbers and divide opinion with fake wars. But the clone thing essentially made him invincible, and so I never really enjoyed *that* Emperor character. It went too far.

Another character (that many seem to love) that I found overrated was Admiral Thrawn. He's closer to the Emperor than Vader. But I found his cunning boring. His big thing was his ability to predict the actions of his adversaries. Palps was more about forcing the hands and deceptively guiding the actions of his adversaries to his means. Just a better character.

Didn't really see Dooku's power as diminishing. He was static. Fought the same two at the same time. OB1 was bested again. The X factor was Anakin, which fits with his character development. His gradual character development. Sure, he had midichlorian PEDs, but he still had to learn and control his force powers.

Vader - OB1 pt. 2 (The Death Spar on the Death Star) had the non-film factors. Old dude and dude in bulky costume along with a director that was literally still creating this universe in his very first SW universe movie making the bad call that the sabers were heavy. But the film reconciliation is that Vader was there to kill OB1, but he wanted to make it personal. He wanted to taunt him. He wanted to humiliate him. When OB1 essentially gave up, he had nothing left to do but kill him.

That seems like a cop out. I was there like any other Star Wars fan, giddy when the Star Wars theme blared yet again. Not only was I fully accepting of Rey being the Luke, I fully expected it. Her "power too far" really didn't hit me until the duel. Up until that point, she was enjoyable as Luke as his father before him. At the end, I felt like I was shortchanged a compelling lead character. I didn't dislike her and then find reason to justify it. The story forced the reason down my throat.

It could have been an incredibly original set up had they really developed Kylo being the protagonist. Where the trilogy is more about his growth. But they kinda screwed that up with his very first scene. Are these two characters cokeheads? Did Kylo "pump up" in the beginning and his supplier was dry so Kylo was going through withdrawals and got weaker. Was that same supplier dry because the new client, Rey, was clearing him out. Her low points are right when she needs to break out a new can of Spinach?

When I sit back and think about it, I'm kinda rooting for a misdirect / misdirect. Finn's the Luke ... psyche ... it's Rey and Finn is just comic relief .... wait .... PSYCHE Finn really is the Luke. Rey and Ren team up and it is up to Finn to make the hero's journey.

 

Rey's accomplishments are not at all out of line with the other Force heroes of these films. Anakin is basically superboy (he can do something no other himan can... without Force training). Luke manages to be one of two surviving X-wing pilots against all those Death Star gunners and trained fighter pilots, even Darth Vader, and hits a target the targeting computer can't hit and he has never been in a fighter before.

The Star Wars trilogies have always featured a hero capable of remarkable feats with little or no training becuase they are very strong in the Force. It's almost like they are special or something.

 

He actually talks about practicing just such a shot. Ben actually gave him a better understanding of the Force and even trained him during the trip to Aldeeran.

Luke didn't outpilot Vader. Vader would have killed Luke if not for Han.

And Rey's Falcon run was infinitely more difficult than the trench run. It was made clear she had no idea how to pilot it just a mere minute earlier. At this point, absolutely zero force training. What could be more difficult than the Death Star shot? Manipulating the Falcon in such a crazy angle to line up the shot with a MOVING target that was also firing at her.

So, again, it is not that she performed a move that was force enhanced, but the degree of the move and the complete lack of training. Accepting it basically means we can accept anything. Perhaps Ep.8 we will see a 2 year old suddenly Force Awaken and instantaneously kill every single First Order sentient (including Kylo and Snoke), just because they wanted to. If you can't fully accept that scenario and "love it", then you have to admit degrees of force use and training matter. And if you do fully accept that baby scenario, then I pray Disney never gives you the opportunity to write/direct a Star Wars film.

 

Anakin destroyed the droid controll ship without understandig or even intending what he did, as long as this is canon Reys achievments are completely inline with the force and significantly toned down in comparision.

 

For starters, the majority of SW don't seem to like that. I love the Prequels, and even I really don't care for Anakin essentially using the Urkel Force. Did *I* do that? The fact that he could pilot a ship well was somewhat more acceptable in that it was clear pod racing wasn't just "a hobby", but more or less his whole life up until that point.

But if you were to parallel the duel to that scene, then a TPM Rey would have entered the fight and been absolutely horrible at it. The other pilots would possibly even consider Rey more a danger to them than a help. Then suddenly, she goes Poe squared, flies into the Droid ship, not by being shot down, but purposely and with overwhelming force, quickly find the weak spot, destroy it, fly down to Naboo and finish off Maul. The Maul part is totally believable because "Qui Gon wore Maul down".

The previous paragraph would be backed up by the MF Jakuu escape and Duel. Don't forget, she would have fixed the escaping Padme ship earlier on, not R2-D2. And she wouldn't have hit on *Padme*, Padme would have hit on her. Perhaps she wouldn't need Qui Gon's help to escape Wattoo's slave net. She'd just forcefully tell him to let her go. Mace wouldn't have been against her training, but instead offer his hand to help. Of course she'd scold him for offering help. She doesn't need it.

 

You are giving Luke in ANH every benefit of the doubt, and cutting Rey no slack at all. Yes, ANH establishes that Luke has some skill at flying... he still has ZERO actual combat experience in a Starfighter. Shooting womprats in a T-16 ain't exactly space combat against trained TIE pilots. And he still outperformed trained and experinced fighter pilots. Yes, Vader would have killed him, but he had remarked earlier that He Force was strong in him whole struggling to line up the shot.

Rey isn't much different really, she expstablishes that she is a pilot "we've got one" and canon books establish she even practices on a simulator. She thinks about it enough that she even wears an X-Wing helmet. She wasn't familair with with the Flacon at first, but figures out the controls and off she goes.

You don't have to buy it, of course, but I personally think this argument borders on the ridiculous, especially if you consider Episode "spinning is a good trick" to be acceptable.

 

I don't really like Anakin's power either but thats a different story from what is possible when the force guides you.

Why should she be horrible at the beginning of the duel, she is established as a capable fighter, considerable stronger than your average thug.

 

Strongbow
I really don't recall Luke doing anything like chasing down all the TIE pilots, taking them out one after the other, as he overpowered them so greatly that they started to flee. I saw TIE pilots slowly and methodically taking out the X-Wing pilots (including hitting Luke and taking out R2-D2), that would have ended up eventually with Luke's death had it not been for Han.

To make this an equivalent, you'd have to have more of a scene of the Maz Kanata fight. Rey is not dying, but hardly dominating. Perhaps somebody shoots the gun out of her hand (R2 loss) where she has to go to the saber as a backup. The Troopers are taking everybody out methodically, Rey is taking them out quickly until he finally has Rey in his sights and ... Han shoots the stormtrooper by his side, disorienting Ren just long enough for Rey to saber whip him.

That gives Rey a win, but it wasn't just getting her Hulkamania on.

Luke doing what Rey did in the TFA duel would have been ... essentially him taking out the TIE fighters a la Poe at the Castle. And if you want to get into that, the Poe scene was also over the top. I don't even think the movie Top Gun had Maverick taking out *Jester* and his cronies in that fashion. Between Rey, Poe and even Ren, Finn sure got short changed. Of course, Finn wasn't trained since birth like the rest of them.

She was horrible at the beginning of the duel. She was LOL horrible. Finn did better than her part 1 of the Duel. And Finn did horribly.

 

He was also established to be extremely gifted in Force usage, which would affect how well he could use it and where he started out in.

I think she did move sloppier at first, since she had no experience with swords before; watch and you can see she's trying to use it like a half-staff, which isn't that effective. It isn't until the she gets the Force boost that she turns the tide.

 

I loved it until a chasm ridiculously opened between them, perfectly separating them without collapsing sufficiently on either side so as to have either fall in.

 

That's how the force works.

 

I think it is established that Rey can fight well and fly ships in the movie. We see evidence of the former in Nima Outpost, and we hear her declare that 'we've got one!' when Finn asks about a Pilot when they are escaping Jakku. She also clearly knows her way around repairing a spaceship. I honestly don't think that Rey and Luke are very different at all in their pre-calling experiences. I would agree that Rey appears to come a lot further in her abilities in the one film than Luke does, given her Jakku escape piloting, jedi mind trick and the Ren duel.

With all that said though, you could easily and fairly compare Anakin's podracing and previously untested starpilot abilities in EpI with Rey's piloting of the Falcon through the Starship graveyard. Regarding the duel, now that I think about it, I'm not so sure we have a good enough understanding of Ren's skills as a duelist from what is depicted in Ep VII to definitively say that Rey is comparatively over-powered in the duel against Kylo Ren. Ren certainly seems to have powers that affect the psyche and he has his freeze hold, but does he ever show much finesse with the sabre? I say no. I can't think of a scene where that is depicted, other than his duel with with Rey and Finn, where he is at best only a little too skilled vs his opponents.
.

I would also add that it would not have made for a satisfying movie, or served to compellingly establish a new lead hero to have Rey (or any character that could have filled that part in the script/story)have her ass handed to her and to have force powers hinted at but not really developed greatly for the entire length of the movie. For that to have worked, she would have needed a force sensitive mentor character in the vein of Obi-Wan to save her or help her along.

How else would they have also depicted Kylo's misplaced faith in his growing but by no means all consuming force powers and his incomplete training? Both characters really do have to be more or less evenly matched given that they are probably meant to represent two sides of the same coin, and are very probably going to turn out to be cousins or siblings.

 

Anakin being extremely potent with the force is the only way his part of the PT makes sense with what Luke has shown in the OT. Establishing Rey in between Anakin and Luke seems like a necessary move when it comes to continuing the OT and the PT.

I have to watch out for these details in her style when I watch it again, sounds like a good catch.

Kylo´s training isn´t finished according to Snoke, a good part of it might be fencing because Rey appearing as a light side lightsaber fighter is the only reason to be really good at it (and from what we now about dark siders Snoke might hesitate to teach him more fighting techniques than necessary). Its hard to say who is the better fighter if we leave the Force and injuries out of the equation. Kylo is clearly more used to lightsabers while Rey would be more comfortable in a duel fought with staffs (I like how she still keeps her staff after the duel)

 

Agree with everything except the last part. I'm still not sure there's a believable way to pull that off (esp. since the novelizations strongly hints that her actual parents or comparable guardians were the ones who left her on Jakku, and on top of that, really did love her and were planning to come back for her).

 

Rey could have just mustered enough power to hold him at bay for a few moments and then in used what remaining strength she had to land a miraculous hit on his face, scarring him. Proving that he'd underestimated her all along and severely damaging his pride. What was most important was that he had failed at killing two kids who shouldn't have survived making it off Jakku.

Before Ren could compose himself and really finish her off in his fury, the ground would split.

For Rey to have such an overwhelming victory over Ren ( to the point that he was laid out on the ground like a buffoon, totally at her mercy), was completely unbelievable and took me right out of the movie. At that point I wasn't sure if I was watching the first movie in the trilogy or the last.

Where's the tension, going forward?
Isn't Ren supposed to be our main antagonist? If Rey scores a major win in episode 9 then we end up with a story in which our villain is the underdog...who ultimately loses.

When you watch the film and really pay attention to how Reys story played out, it seems like the conclusion of her duel had less to do with making any sense and more to do with continuing to potray Rey as some characature of what JJ interpreted to be a "strong" character. Unlike say Jyn Erso.

That's just how a saw it, anyways.





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Option 1: Rey and the Resistance will reach their lowest point in EP8 and win again in EP9. (much like the OT arc)
Option 2: There will be a twist like Rey going dark etc.

To me option 1 is more likely because they set up Kylo´s training in TFA, so I expect him to kick some a** in EP8.

 

I for one love the fact that they've bucked the conventions by having Rey succeed this early and created an antagonist that isn't as potent as he at first appears (one who will have to undertake a journey of his own). It means the continuation of the story will have a different source of tension, not only for Rey (will she be too overconfident when she next faces Ren?) but Ren as well (how will he do for this rematch?) and that itself is new and very interesting territory.

 

Ep. 8 The Rocky 3. Having just shocked the world with her underdog victory over Kylo Creed, Rey Balboa begins the story with a string of championship defenses. In the Outer Territory matches, there's an up and comer, Clubber Snoke. Clubber Snoke calls out Rey Balboa. "You ain't never fought anyone like me!! Kylo Creed was a paper champion. Who did he defeat? Nobody, that's who. Fight me." Mick Skywalker tells Rey Balboa that the fight of his life was to just walk away from the fight. But then Clubber Snoke yells out "Yeah. I'm talking to you Finn Balboa. You ain't never had a real partner, like me. Bring your fine traitor self over here and I'll show you the real force."

That's just too much for Rey Balboa to ignore. She starts to attack Clubber Snoke, but in the ruckus, Mick Skywalker is mortally wounded. Clubber Snoke starts to put a beat down on the distraught Rey Balboa. He's about to finish her off when, the ground opens up and divides them. Rey Balboa runs to Mick Skywalker to find him dead. Finn Balboa says "I'm out" and divorces Rey Balboa going back to his maiden name FN "Finnie" Pennino.
<end credits>

Ep. 9. Rocky 3.5. Rey Balboa is down and out. Not sure if she even wants a rematch. But then ..... Kylo Creed shows up to tell her "I know what it's like to lose when you are so sure you should win. I was just about to make my comeback when the ground opened up. Another second and I would have force stunned and killed you. That's a difficult scenario to live with. I can train you. I know Clubber Snoke. I know his weakness. You just gotta avoid him at first and let him tire himself out, and then you strike. After this, you'll owe me one."

But the real twist happens when Mick Skywalker's ghost shows up to help train as well. FN "Finnie" Pennino comes back knowing Rey Balboa can't do it without his support. Unfortunately, he's a bit of an annoying, jealous drunk now. Star Wars theme plays for training montage.

Rey Balboa goes onto fight Clubber Snoke. Clubber Snoke starts off poorly, but then looks like he is coming back. Finnie says "Rey ain't losing. She's getting mad." Kylo Creed has Rey Balboa right where he wants her. Rey Balboa wins by harnessing her hate and turns to the dark side. Just as Kylo Creed planned it. Now he gets his rematch.

Who wins? Buy advanced tickets for the new trilogy to find out. There's going to be a tall Pale Jedi in the mix that fights strong, but like a droid. K-2-Drag-O. Not sure how that works with timeline continuity, so perhaps they'll just address that with a Force Flashback.

And they said the best two were Star Wars Trilogy 1 and 2. Pfft. We got at least 8 trilogies with this cash cow.