ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

I love it that you think placing AotC above TPM is perfectly normal.

 

Well that's a bit off topic, but I certainly understand those who prefer TPM over AOTC. But for me, less Jar-Jar and no Kid Vader is such a relief. But it's not like I think AOTC sits near the top of the pile of Star Wars greatness!

My real point is that many folks who present Rey as a "Mary Sue" ignore that Luke, and especially Anakin are both both "Gary Stu's" by the same standard. But in fact, the Star Wars saga movies are about remarkable heroes, who can do remarkable things, even before they fully realize their potential.

 

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't wanna get banned talking about that subject.

 

Great post and agree 100%. I understand Rey would be destined to beat Kylo in the end. But this was the beginning of the trilogy. Her beating him handily takes so much away from his character. At least for now until he hopefully kicks some major ass in 8.

Never understood the excuses people make for his loss. He was doing fine with his injuries before Reys 'The Force??' moment (*barf*). And I think I literally rolled my eyes when the ground split..

In terms of choreography I thought it was a great duel. A good mixture of the urgency in the classic trilogy (ignite to kill) and a little bit of prequel flash sprinkled throughout (most Kylo swinging his saber around).

 

I don;t really see how TFA takes away from Kylo's character. What's interesting about Kylo, what makes him DIFFERENT from Vader is that he isn't just the bad-ass bad guy. He is conflicted. He is raw. He is unfinished.

He had just murdered his father, been fairly seriously wounded by a bowcaster, and was under orders from Snoke to bring Rey to him. I do not see his character diminished in any respect. He remains the conflicted, damaged young man. Only now maybe he sees that he is not so uniquely special as he had thought himself. Quite an interesting villain, IMO.

 

He's still the most interesting character I agree. But after all the damage he sustained (mentally, bowcaster and Finn) he was still doing fine in the fight vs Rey. Ultimately, he didnt lose because of those 'excuses'. He lost because Rey felt the Force and suddenly kicked his ass. And in doing that, the film lost a lot of credibility in my opinion. It weakens the villain (a Jedi and Dark Side apprentice) and overpowers the hero (a newbie). Off course this is just an opinion and I can understand that you don't feel the same. However, I felt the movie took it's second major hit there, with the first being Starkiller Base (uggghh).

Off course if Rey turns out to be something more special than even Anakin or Luke (as in why the Force comes even more natural to her than to them) I can maybe make some peace with all this.

 

Okay, that's the part I do not understand.... why do you think the film lost "credibility?" Not that you can't feel that way, but that moment was a real highlight for me... her unrestrained (almost TOO unrestrained) surrender to the Force was just spectacular in my view, and Kylo was clearly taken aback.

 

Well, look at it this way. Kylo was fighting while in bad shape (yes, I'm one of those people who makes "excuses," but I will point out that I'm extrapolating directly from canon sources, and some of them do specifically point out that Kylo was fighting while weakened), but he still almost won despite all that. I don't think that weakened him at all. Think about it. If he was shot with a bowcaster in the side and bleeding all over the place, in pain, struggling to use the Force (per the novelizations), and an emotional mess (also from the novelizations), and he still almost won, how much trouble is Rey going to have when he's fully healed and finished his training? If anything, I think we should be more worried about if Rey will be able to win round two, rather than if her conditional win the first round made Kylo look bad.

I kind of hope not. I'd prefer if she's just a "normal" Force user who happens to be in the right place at the right time to make a difference.

Now, I'm just thinking out loud, but the novel Ahsoka mentions that many Force-senstitive children have a skill of some kind that they're inherently attuned to using without thinking (in Ahsoka's case, she was able to separate lies from truth, another kid she encountered had a danger sense, etc.). Maybe Rey's trick is that she can connect to the Force easily, or something. We do know that she was, through dreams, subconsciously recalling her family leaving her on Jakku (junior novelization), despite the fact that her conscious mind couldn't remember a thing (Rey's Survival Guide).

 

It annoyed me because although Kylo hasn't finished his training, I'd like to think he's pretty highly trained and pretty powerful with the force and indeed he offers to teach the ways of the force to Rey. Evidently Rey is naturally strong with the force, but still it would have been a more powerful scene if the bad guy had won (as in Vader v Obi Wan in ANH, where the latter gave up, or Vader v Luke at the end of ESB, where Luke lost a hand and escaped but Vader was probably deliberately holding back from killing him). I hope next time they fight, Rey is lucky to escape with her life - that way we can have more tension for IX.

 

Others have made good points on Rey winning, but I think it also lets her act on her newfound understanding. Kylo and Finn had each taken a significant step by that point, but Rey's fear was unresolved. Further, Kylo had already subdued Rey once. As for next time, if the precedent from ESB and AOTC holds up, that lucky-escape scenario may well happen.

 

I thought it was a cool fight. I feel like Kylo should have been more skilled, however i'm now taking into consideration the facts that he was emotionally damaged from killing his father as well as literally damaged from getting shot earlier by Chewy. I hope in the next flim both fighters become more skilled and we can get a little showing of the flashy lightsaber choreography from the prequels, while still retaining elements like emotional weight and dialogue that were present in the fights from the original trilogy.

 

I'd have preferred if the battle was more of a stalemate than a win for Rey though because I feel like Rey is turning into a jedi like 3x faster than Luke did. Her butt better be a Skywalker or something. Although I don't know how much more i can take of the Skywalker family single handedly screwing with the galaxy.

 

Definitely agree with the dialogue in sabre fights. TFA seemed to think what made the OT saber battles great was they were "sloppy". Totally missed the mark there. The only time any of the duels became all out was when Luke went dark side psycho against Vader at the end. And guess what happened when a duel went all out. The conversation stopped. The other 90% of the duel time was a lot of testing and holding back as verbal taunts were used to get inside the head of the other. Didn't have that with the TFA duel.

When all is said and done, the TFA duel had a great location. Other than that, it was odd.

 

The forest was straight up a mortal kombat 10 map if you know the game lol.

 

As far as I know the duel was intended to look a bit amateurish, which means that the following duels will look more refined. I don´t mind them to be a bit flashy but you still have to feel the danger for the fighters, something the PT duels often failed at. (to be fair over-choreograhed was en vogue back than too with examples like Matrix and some of LotR)

While I agree that the dialogue is a very important part of Star Wars duels too much talking would have been odd in TFA, Kylo tries to turn Rey but other than that they don´t share as much history as Luke and Vader.

Edit:

This kind of winter forrest is a stable in filmmaking too:

Tarkovsky´s Dance of the Birches



Sopranos - Pine Barrens

 

yes, if this trilogy follows the usual three act dramatic structure there would be have to a crisis for our heroes in part two (VIII)
If Rey in is trouble in a 2nd duel v Kylo (+Snoke ?), perhaps she has to be rescued ? Perhaps Poe could come to her aid, he could thwart his torturer from TFA

 

I'm hoping it goes a different route. That Kylo is actually the Luke of this trilogy. Not just by namesake, but it turns out he is the main character, not Rey. When he learned of his grandfather being Vader, he couldn't stop asking why? Why did Anakin become Vader? Luke gives him the "seduced by the darkside" speech and it doesn't sit right with Ben. He does his own research, which leads him to Snoke with first hand experience of the PT events. Snoke tells him about Anakin's devotion to his family (mother, wife and then children). He tells him how neither the Republic, Separatists or the Empire were the right choice. Anakin had hoped to become the benevolent ruler of the people and force users. No longer would the people have to suffer while the government was caught up endlessly debating in committee. No longer would a force user have to choose the light side and a life of loneliness OR the dark side just so they could have a wife and family. He'll finish what Vader started. The New Republic got Vader all wrong.

A parallel could be the Soviet Union = The Empire. Then the rebels put an end to the Soviet rule and created the New Republic (Yeltsin era). Democracy had come to Russia (The New Republic). But it wasn't what they had hoped. Instead, infighting, corruption and decay were the headlines of the day. Perhaps the Soviet Empire was all wrong. It just had the wrong emperor. A new, strong emperor (Putin/Kylo) could restore the glory while also bringing hope to the population. The New Republic era is now viewed as murderers, traitors and thieves.

Luke/Leia would be the Yeltsin here. Somebody that could have created a new utopia, but failed miserably. Episode 9 ends with Kylo in control of his new Empire. Emo Kylo projects strength through his exterior so he can rule unquestioned, but on the inside he thinks he will do right by the people. His new empire. But it will be in Vader's image this time.

Just one of the the strings I pulled as possible SW detours, but it is really new to me so it is very thin at this point. Also, I highly doubt this is where we are headed. I hate to say it, but there is no way SW is going to risk having a heroine and not making her the final heroine. And it sure wouldn't end a trilogy on a path that suggests democracy might not be the end all (even if Trilogy 4 is all about how Kylo's empire goes wrong.) Imagine if the PT was the OT, ended with Palps and Vader in control and then that's it for at least a decade with no clear idea there would be more to the saga. It would be a, gulp, risk.

 

The duel was one of my most favorite things about TFA.

It was very well choreographed and it felt real and intense (compared to the AOTC duel and some of ROTS's duels).

 

Best. Sopranos. Episode. Ever.

Originally written by Tony D actor Steve Buschemi, he wrote it as if it were a stem off of the show in the form of a play. The characters of Paulie and Chris, and their dynamic, it's just... magical.

Back to topic about the duel, I definitely felt underwhelmed when first witnessing it in the theaters... we had waited ten years for new SW film content and the duel just felt short and unfulfilling. However, I can see what JJ was trying to do and it was throwing back to the OT way of lightsaber duels. I remember watching a behind the scenes feature where Lucas originally felt lightsabers should be heavy to wield and that only Vader with his robotic limbs could perfectly hold a saber with one hand but later changed his mind when it came to the PT; more specifically Dooku's style of combat. Seeing as TFA is a sequel to the OT, it would make more sense to keep the lightsaber combat consistent, it tends to fall somewhat flat after the flashy and quick duels we've seen in the PT which are visually appealing and generally, just more fast-paced and exciting.

I hope we see faster, more intense duels in Ep. VIIII, but it might seem out of place now that TFA has set the tone. I guess for an in-universe explanation you could blame it on the fact that both Finn and Rey have never held a lightsaber (presumably) before and that after some practice, they may rival the combat styles of Obi Wan or even Anakin, but I believe the fan base will be split either way. I personally loved the flashy, quick and complex duels in the PT, but I understand the whole joke of "what does this accomplish?" when they swing aimlessly in circles as if performing a lightshow dance with them. I don't know if Nick still does the choreograph for the saber duels ( I don't believe he did for TFA) but if he comes back, he needs to find a nice, fitting balance between the two styles. You don't want to go overboard with the swinging and flashyness like in ROTS, but you also don't want what happened in the TFA where it seems almost sloppy, slow and short...

 

I think it's a good teaser for things to come. I mean, I think we can expect more skillful, refined duelling in the next one. A Rey/Kylo rematch will need to bring things up a notch to thrill us - and I really think it will.

 

The duel was aggressive and brutal. Mostly unrefined, and without Hong Kong theater. Though sometimes being cool at showing a character's athletic prowess or Force connection, superfluous flips and gymnastics sometimes get in the way of the driving emotion behind the engagement. Without bashing, sometimes trying to emphasize incredulous prowess (or moves drive by Force assistance) of certain thrusts and parries leads to things such as a horizontally spinning Palpatine, that - for some - come off as more comical than impressive. Personally I enjoyed the raw, emotion driven confrontation, with energized slashing and hacking. Some refinement for certain combatants would be fine, but not at the expense of the driving emotion behind the confrontation.

 

i guess i thought kylo was not willing to win. it's an issue that has plagued him for a while, but i think he broke after he killed han. he was supposed to be enjoying the increased powers of the dark side, but instead he is weakened. something has went terribly wrong. his identity crisis seems to lock him in this. he is (like he believes) so much weaker than anakin because he can't even latch onto a solid identity. he is wallowing about trying to end the pain only to find he doesn't have any pleasure either. it's like he's caught between the light and dark (even though obviously on the dark side) and can only rely on pretense trying to find some lasting sense of self.

 

Ha, are they actually using Force FX lightsabers for their duel here? Wicked!


My favourite shot of the duel. While I tend to appreciate the quicker, flashier duels of the PT, I do have an appreciation for the Ren vs Rey duel simply because of it's more throwback feel to the duels in the OT. Loved the detail of Ren punching his bowcaster wound to fuel his anger and pain. I also liked the dynamic of Ren testing his and attempting to lure her to become his apprentice, hesitating to kill her each time he encounters her, and Rey calling upon the light of the force to dominate Kylo Ren in a series of flurries. Made me think the theory of her being a Kenobi could be possible, as that scene seems to mirror Obi Wan's "high ground" scene in TPM.

I also adore the location of this duel, the contrast with the sabers and pure white snow, visually breathtaking.

 

It was ok, but the ending was terrible.
Prequels are still the best.

 

In before the merge...