ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Aw man! Now I'm going to have to listen to that again. I started to tune out when Abrams was spouting delusions of grandeur about Anthony Daniels hating Threepio's red arm and in his great act of kindness he 'let' him have the gold arm back for the last scene.

If he did say it was supposed to end in a draw it must have been while I was in mid chug on the bottles of maalox I had to down in order to get through that commentary track.

 

Well, I want to clarify that an alternative perspective may try to salvage some semblance of 'transferability' between a staff and a lightsaber. I think such a notion has been fairly ridiculous for a while. The Rebels episode when taken by itself would seem to concur that the lightsaber is a unique weapon that requires experience in itself. I know there's a passage in the Visual Dictionary that claims Rey's melee prowess is transferable. This passage probably arises because Hidalgo was familiar with the screenplay. If not, it's an illicit minor fallacy.

So, for clarity, a mainline defense of this scene (for better or worse) is Rey's familiarity with a staff.

You bring up other defenses that may potentially justify the scene even if Rey's melee prowess is discounted. I'll address the force sensitivity aspect. Luke Skywalker who was commented on by George Lucas to be the Jedi who would become the most powerful in the history of the Jedi Order was not a proficient duelist the first time he picked the lightsaber up. He would struggle to perform a feat that four year old Jedi younglings did in AoTC. Perhaps her force sensitivity is simply stronger than Luke's? Maybe she is just supposed to be that good, I don't know. But it's important to note that in the absence of the 'familiar weapon' theory, her force sensitivity is not a strong defense unless she is just simply unbelievably, incredibly, amazingly powerful.

I would propose a natural variance theory. Suppose for an instant, that the average American male is to box Floyd Mayweather or any highly renowned and talented boxer. Theoretically, there is a nonzero chance that this average man wins the boxing match. If such an outcome were to occur, it could not be claimed to be likely to happen again, as it is simply not representative. It is in other words, a fluke.

 

in that part they were using thick light tubes. they didn't have the tech to make the glowing sabers that could actually be used yet.

 

Given how Kanan describes wielding a saber, perhaps the process is easier for someone who's Force-sensitive. Ezra didn't have that struggle. As for Rey, she's clearly awkward with a saber for most of the duel, and even after opening herself to the Force, she uses this grip.

What's wrong with these circumstances ultimately favoring Rey?

 

Logically, the process should be easier for someone who is force sensitive. I struggle to see the relevance of this, however. Of course a force sensitive individual will find wielding a lightsaber less challenging. A force sensitive individual will find wielding any weapon easier. The point is that familiarity with one weapon does not make you an expert at another. Not only force sensitives have become proficient with lightsabers which would seem to dispel the significance of your assertion as I currently understand it.

I find your comment about Ezra strange. I'm not sure why you are suggesting that Ezra didn't have this problem. The problem obviously being that it took him a while to develop his abilities with the force and the lightsaber.



According the canon media timeline, Ezra has about a year of training at this point. He doesn't do very well.



This was a season later, and apparently almost a year later but I can't get an exact date on it. A lesser inquisitor than the one he faced before remarks 'I don't have time for this, child' before effortlessly throwing him aside.

I don't see Ezra's progression as one where he did not have trouble. It is a long, slow progression.

There is another comment I want to make about Sabine's training. When she says 'I know how to fight with sticks' then charges Kanan to be easily sidestepped and beaten, and Kanan states 'that may work on Stormtroopers but not on me.' So often the transferability of the weapons is discussed. But what about transferability of circumstance. Sabine tried to apply her experience beating up stormtroopers with a stick to fighting a Jedi and was soundly beaten. Rey applied her experience of beating up thugs with a stick and was victorious. The point is this, wielding the lightsaber is only half the struggle, the other half would be fighting against the lightsaber; which Rey also has no experience with.

You comment upon the intricacies of Rey's victories. She used the force to win, or she used the lightsaber to win. It was a martial victory regardless. She used the force to grant her dueling ability, or she is naturally a good duelist, either way she out dueled him. I see no relevance in commentary upon the means of victory.

I'm going to refrain from answering why these circumstances present a problem. I have been enough of an advocate already.

 

True, my point was poorly described. I meant that what Kanan describes as "directing a current of power", the flow of energy and the way one's thoughts and feelings interact with it, is more intuitive for someone who's Force-sensitive. The long development process, as you rightly point out is the case with Ezra, could be the growing pains of honing that connection.

Speaking of circumstance, I think the comparison is missing some details. Rey applied her experience of beating up thugs with a stick to fighting an injured, unfocused Force user whose training was incomplete, and she spent most of that time on the defensive. I think Kylo's lack of focus, especially, is noteworthy with respect to, again, directing that current of power. Rey was victorious after coming to an understanding of the Force and opening herself to it. Thus, her focus was ultimately the greater.

 

I guess. My position is that whatever Rey had going for her (whatever staff skills transferred to using the saber, Force-sensitivity, etc.) wouldn't have helped if Kylo was at full health. So I think that him being injured created a special circumstance where she could win (and even then it was really close). So, I guess you could call it a "fluke."

(Not sure if Rey was more Force-sensitive than Luke or anything. Since we don't know what her limits are, that's really tough to answer. Esp. since I think a lot of the stuff she does in the movie is consistent with what untrained newbies can do.)

 

I dont understand how rey shouldn't have won.

-as we all know, kylo was first shot, and then finn severely slashed his shoulder (which rey uses to her advantage at the end)
-kylo probably isn't an experienced duelist
-rey was still awkward with the lightsaber, and survived mostly by survival instinct and a lot of running away. completely believable.
-most importantly, kylo was trying to capture her, not kill her. he could have defeated her just as he did finn when he caught up to her, but instead he started talking he basically let his guard down. this gave rey a chance to strike, which she took, allowing her to defeat an injured and fatigued evil former jedi apprentice. very satisfying and believable outcome

her 'force levels' aren't relevant, and with the above information alone it makes sense for her to win. doesn't mean kylo isn't more than capable of also defeating her though.

 

Ok let's say Bruce Lee got shot in the side with a .45 acp (a fairly powerful bullet). Now i have to fight him with a stick in 5 minutes. I did take some Kendo classes.

Who you gonna bet on? Me or BL?

 

Rey vs Kylo duel was weak. She was just running away from him unitll Kylo gave her 5 minutes to activate her bull**** powers. I enjoyed Finn vs Kylo a lot more.
Qui Gon & Obi Wan vs Darth Maul and Obi vs Anakin are by far the best duels.

 

the duel revealed things about the characters after rey turned the tables that it may have been difficult to reveal otherwise. rey becomes like a huntress channeling the dark side. kylo becomes more vulnerable than he has appeared all movie, and is more stunned and even accepting somehow (?) of defeat rather than reacting with rage. each has gained more knowledge of the other than they would have gained otherwise. i thought things ended on an interesting note.

 

If you're getting precognition of what BL's next move is going to be, that does level the playing field further. (Also, I'm not sure that Kylo Ren was a BL of saber dueling.)

 

That's kind of the main issue I'm having with the whole duel, is we don't exactly know just how skilled Kylo Ren actually is at dueling. If you look at his style compared to say, Anakin in ROTS, it's quite obvious who would be the victor in that situation on blade work alone. However, I'm somewhat certain that JJ was trying to revert to the OT style of dueling where GL originally had the concept that a lightsaber should be heavy to wield and that even the most skilled fighter will be slow and clunky with heavy strikes.

If that's the case, it would appear to the audience that Kylo Ren is seems almost on par with Darth Vader in the two handed, clunky yet powerful strikes. If you look at it that way, Rey seems to be automatically in line with Luke in ESB. Fast, but not fully trained. Naturally powerful enough to get one good strike in, but mainly because she is not in true danger of dying as both Ren and Vader wanted to keep their opponents alive. I'm on the fence of whether it makes sense that Rey actually "won". Perhaps if the planet hadn't started to crack apart and they could continue to fight Ren would've fully shut her down, but it seems they wanted to show that Rey was just naturally more powerful for whatever reason. I guess that will make more sense when her lineage is revealed.

 

I actually thought he was trying to suggest duelists who were not very refined (Rey was a newbie, Kylo was injured).

I took the comment from Snoke that Kylo needed to complete his training (along with Kylo's reverent wishes to live up to Vader) to mean that he was nowhere near Vader's skill at anything. I could be wrong though.

That is an important point, Kylo wasn't trying to kill her (not sure what he had in mind after he offered to teach her and she rejected that, but that was the point when Rey began drawing on the Force).

By the end of it, Kylo was on his back, slashed in several places and his lightsaber may or may not have been chopped in half (it looks like Rey might've cut through the hilt, but I can't tell for sure). The junior novelization even comments that he was afraid of dying at that point. I have a hard time seeing how he would've survived had Rey decided to try and kill him there.

Because of all the conditions needed for her to "win," I'm not sure she seemed that powerful, but we'll see in the sequels where she charts.

 

Apologies, I wrote some of my comment wrong. When comparing Ren to Vader I meant more so the dueling technique he uses with the slow, heavy, two handed powerful strikes. Where in the PT we see Jedi swinging their sabers around in intricate style, Vader in the OT specifically seems to handle his lightsaber like a broad long sword. The type of strikes you could not possibly block with one hand, unless it was robotic. I don't think Ren is anywhere close to Vader's power level yet.

Personally, I believe Kylo would've captured Rey if he was to win the duel and attempt to turn her to the darkside regardless. The scene with Malak "breaking" Bastila in KOTOR comes to mind, torture her until she submits to her anger. Of course, he'd never leave her in a cell with a weak minded stormtrooper again. As for how Ren would win the duel, I know he was on his back basically beaten to a pulp, but he is still more experienced in the Force then Rey. Although she beat him by calling the saber to herself, for all we know that is because they made the point to say that saber is now hers. We've also seen Ren freeze her in place and shut down her mind to turn her unconscious. I'm sure he could attempt that again to capture her if there wasn't so much chaos going on...

 

Oh. Maybe Kylo was trying to copy one of Vader's styles? (Vader did have robotic arms, so I would imagine he could create a more powerful swing than Kylo could.)

Suppose it depends on what Snoke had in mind for her when he wanted her.

Both novelizations seem to state that Kylo was not in a position to defend himself period.

Possibly; she does seem to give it back to Luke at the end. It seemed to me (from a storytelling perspective), to show more that she'd accepted the Jedi path (when she first refuses the call, she promises she's never touching the saber again, so when she changes her mind and accepts the call, she willingly takes the saber).

Possibly. The junior novelization does establish that the pain from his wounds was interfering with his use of telekinesis, so he may not have been able to freeze her at that point. Can't say for sure about his Force Vulcan nerve pinch thing, but I wonder if he would've been in any shape to do it.

 

What your view of this duel ultimately comes down to is how you think movies fights should go. Some people from what it seems think of movie fights in terms of power levels, which are mostly head-canon, and "muh training" (like a video game, where the player character has to level up in the literal sense before they are able to defeat a powerful monster or complete an important mission, or a game of Dungeons and Dragons, where the outcome of an encounter is determined by player stats and dice rolls), whereas other like myself see them as more philosophical and symbolic of the characters' journey, i.e x character wins the fight, it's representative of y character's overconfidence being their downfall and x character's level-headedness and patience.

As far as "lore destroying" goes, as others have pointed out, it's not a contradiction to the lore (the outcome of this particular duel) because nowhere in canon is it explicitly said that it cannot happen. In fact, I'd say some of canon supports it (non-Force users like Cad Bane and General Grievous wielding lightsabers, non-Force users such as Mandolorians beating Force-users in combat, etc).

Plus I've seen other films where the main character progresses just as fast, if not faster than Rey, and nobody lifts a finger. Like in Doctor Stange

Spoiler

he comes to the Ancient One with literally no knowledge of magic, and within a short period of time, is telling the other sorcerers what they're doing wrong, defeats the main villain who's clearly more experience than him, and by the end manages to defeat one of the most powerful beings in the universe and becomes Sorcerer Supreme, the highest title one can attain. At least with Rey, she's not the Grand Master Jedi and still has to go to Luke for more learning.

 

Hmm. At first glance, a reasonable person would not make a wager as it is undetermined how Lee bears this injury. But let's say after he is shot, Lee runs a couple laps around the track. And when he gets done going for a run, he outfights someone in a stick battle. You then have to fight Lee while never having used a stick before because Rey had never used a lightsaber before. But we'll say you were decent with a sword.

If someone were to bet on you to win this confrontation they would need to be reasonably assured that Lee is diminished significantly. Why they would be assured of this after Lee's casual run and subsequent stick battle, I do not know.

 

Rey and Kylos duel was my favorite of the movie, very star wars. Really was a great duel perfectly suited toward the end of the film.

 

I think anybody, even bruce lee, would be seriously hindered by a bullet of that power. in a real life fist fight it is over once a gun comes out. in the moment people might not notice they were even shot and keep functioning for a moment, but that's not how this duel played out. kylo was clearly in pain as soon as he was shot, and then manages to meet them in the woods, probably hurting them and fatiguing him even more. in any case i don't know why we are talking about getting shot like it's no big deal and anybody should just walk it off.

kylo is also nowhere near bruce lee level either, based on on screen evidence. there is no evidence that he has ever dueled. yes, he is the older character, was trained by luke, and has been in the first order for years. however, it is likely luke did not teach with lightsabers, at least not until a certain level. and kylo, taking on a commander role in the knights of ren that he seems to have just been given, probably does not have as much combat experience as you would think. kylo's lightsaber probably has more use as an execution and intimidation tool than as a combat weapon.

so taking into account all of that, kylo is more experienced than rey and finn, but he's a bit of a novice himself in some ways (which is cleary the intent of the film makers, idk why a lot of you insist he is this expert sith lord). his injury makes it more than equal. I would actually expect worse from him considering the blaster wound, and that he could have still killed them both shows his potential to grow in the next film. he's weak but he's also strong.

so it makes sense that a defecting soldier and a scavenger with good athletic and survival skills could have taken on this guy and held their own. it doesn't make kylo underpowered (as i said he does quite well given the circumstances and only loses by letting his guard down), it just means finn and rey also strong.

I think kylo legitimately struggled against finn. there is an element of toying/punishing finn, with him not force pushing him (however i think this is also due to fatigue and the force being more difficult than we imagine even for a force user). in terms of lightsaber combat alone, i think kylo was actually surprised by finn's ability, and even though he is a sloppy novice, kylo is too to a lesser extent. there is a more equal dynamic here at play (i dont think the filmmakers intended to portray finn as a clown who could never win as many think), and it makes sense that he could at least hold his own and get a strike in before getting defeated.

then we get to rey, who last longer than finn, only because kylo wants to capture her rather than kill her (not to mention he has an intense hatred for finn lol). however, rey still makes a strong showing, and once kylo gives her the chance she goes crazy and defeats him. nice twist, and we learn a lot about the characters through this moment. rey is tough and has a lot of potential (as does finn), while kylo, despite being strong (but also weak), is conflicted and uncertain of his true power.

yet so many are hung up on this idea of kylo being bruce lee and force power levels. this is a duel between three strong but unrefined novices (kylo having more experience but he's no expert either), which leads to more genuine competition than if kylo was really the next vader.

and imo, the best part isn't even the fight itself. kylo yelling traitor, finn pulling that face, and igniting the lightsaber while the strings swell is the best fifteen seconds of the whole saga.

 

Hmmmmmm. Maybe I was wrong comparing Ren to someone legendary like Bruce Lee and a .45 acp bullet. Maybe i should of picked somebody more "tough" & "brutal". I guess Ren is more like a Mike Ditka or a Leatherface then BL.

 

I agree with the proposition that someone is likely to be seriously hindered by a gunshot wound. This is not an absolute statement. Some people some times will be capable of great things after gunshot wounds. At some point, there has to be a level of competence, some exhibition or feat performed after Kylo's injury that is capable of convincing you he is bearing this injury well. As I've stated earlier, if after being shot Bruce Lee were to run a couple laps around a track and perform some degree of martial prowess, this should lead one to believe he is bearing the injury well.

I'm going to make this line of reasoning even more obvious. Say someone were to slice another individual's spine in such a way that there is a 99.99% chance of paralysis. Based upon the event itself, you would assume the sliced individual is paralyzed. But, if this individual walks after the slice, he is not paralyzed and your assumption which was based upon the event itself is mistaken.

Additionally, Bruce Lee is not an apt comparison. Kylo having access to the force would be able to mitigate the effects of this injury in ways Bruce Lee could not.

Sometimes I wonder how seriously this bowcaster injury can be thought to be. The novelization mentions Kylo's injury when he force pushes Rey, but never again after. He sustains by my count at least 4 lightsaber tags after this. I've seen Kylo's injury been claimed to be 'grave' before he even engages Rey. As if the person claiming this suspects Kylo's life was in jeopardy. Kylo was tagged three times by Rey. One would suspect that a 'grave' situation wounded further would be an even more 'grave' situation after. But, Kylo will be fine.

The novel explicitly states Finn was being toyed with. If you watch this duel, you'll see two things in particular. Kylo knocks Finn down fairly quickly, and allows him to get back up. You'll also see the duel end a few seconds after Kylo is clipped. If you want to go meta, you'll note that JJ Abrams acknowledged that Kylo chose to engage Finn, and could've ended the fight without serious effort.

My intent was never to portray Kylo as anything more than who he has been portrayed as. The Visual Dictionary explicitly states Kylo Ren has killed Jedi with his lightsaber. He is known as 'Jedi killer.' He is probably given his title of Master of the Knights of Ren because Snoke thinks he is uncommonly powerful. As Snoke has been quoted as claiming. Kylo is a dark sided Skywalker, a descendant of the most powerful lineage the universe has seen. Kylo has been in training at least twice as long as Luke was in Return of the Jedi. None of this is hyperbole, but verifiable fact.

You mention that Kylo is on-screen portrayed as rather 'novice' I suppose. The film does show Kylo as an advanced practitioner of telekinesis, and mind probing, but I will grant you that I see where you are coming from. From a certain perspective Kylo can be seen as somewhat novice. The problem with this is that he only seems to be so in the vicinity of Rey. The novel states that Kylo is an advanced practitioner of mind probing, but Rey is able to resist him and turn it around. Kylo is proficient at telekinesis but Rey edges him here as well. And this is the crux of it. All the information aside from Kylo's interactions with Rey point to the fact that Kylo should be fairly strong. So, if Kylo looks somewhat novice, perhaps the proper conclusion is that Rey is quite advanced.

There are two issues at play here. There is the plausibility angle, but I'll diverge from this. The second issue is the implications from this fight, what does this fight mean? Rey beats a diminished but not debilitated Kylo, partially due to the injury, and partially due to her ability. This presents a problem because this is the furthest away from each other these combatants will ever be in terms of intrinsic capacity. It is commonly claimed, and perhaps you subscribe to the notion as well that Kylo and Rey could take a 'rivals' approach instead of the more common Luke / Vader approach. The problem with this 'rivals' approach is that it should already be invalidated. I ask you to consider why a chess grandmaster at age 23 today will not stay ahead of a 9 year old chess prodigy. Say the chess prodigy has slightly more potential, and they both play the same amount for the next 10 years. The chess grandmaster is currently exponentially better. The grandmaster will not stay better because of diminishing returns, or diminishing marginal utility. The more you train, the less you get out of each hour put in. The greatest improvement a chess player will ever make to their game is learning how to play. It is the very first step. The earlier you are in the training cycle the more you benefit from training.

Kylo had exponentially more training. Rey will, (necessarily if following logic) progress far faster than Kylo. This is a problem because Rey has already proven herself a competitor to Kylo. Understand this. My claim is not that Rey is currently as strong as Kylo, or even close. My claim is that if she is even within a nautical mile of him without ever being exposed to basic lightsaber training, she should necessarily surpass him quickly. They can both train, but Rey will get far more out of it.

So, the relative strength of Kylo may be important when trying to ascertain the logicality of this outcome. But, it's quite irrelevant when trying to discern the implications. One should note that Rey should only logically surpass Kylo very quickly if the outcome is intended to be representative (Rey can consistently fight off an injured Kylo.)

 

It was a impressive duel to watch.

 

I didn't like it. It was coarse & rough & irritating & went nowhere fast!

 

I have a problem with this.

Anakin was a legendary Jedi Knight with thirteen years of training when he fought Count Dooku in RoTS. There is nothing unusual about this outcome, losing a duel three years earlier can easily be explained through diminishing marginal utility.

Kenobi was outdueled by Maul before he won on a fluke.

Luke beat a man who sacrificed his life to save the very man who cut his arm off moments ago. Vader was fighting his son.

The only true apples to apples comparison to Rey Vs Kylo here is Anakin vs Dooku, which is a terrible comparison.

There is NO duel (in the movies aside from Kylo vs Finn) that is as mismatched on paper as what Kylo vs Rey seems to be. If you do not understand this, I will explain further. Please let me know.

I say this in terms of intrinsic capacity which means I am not considering circumstantial factors. Just an 'on-paper' comparison as you did.

I will say though, there is one duel that exceeds Rey vs Kylo in implausibility that I am aware of. It's not in a movie, but in Rebels.



Considering circumstantial factors, that is probably more implausible than Rey beating Kylo. On paper however, I would think Kanan is closer to Maul than Rey is to Kylo.