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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Canyon D, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    I'm not asking anything. I'm waiting to see what 8 and 9 reveal. That's the hard part about watching/discussing The Force Awakens right now. For me at least.
     
    Jester J Binks likes this.
  2. Darth Nave

    Darth Nave Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2015
    I can understand not liking the duel (as nothing will ever satisfy 100% of people), but I fail to see how it goes against the internal logic of the film. You can argue that it is unprecedented, but as myself and others have said before, that in and of itself does not make it a contradiction unless it is explicitly stated in this film or preceding films that the specific outcome of the duel cannot happen. So my question for those who feel that way is what specific evidence from this film or previous canon material states that Rey beating Kylo Ren cannot happen?
     
  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    That is the larger question. What IS the logic of the film? That is the thing that TFA spends all kinds of time avoiding on a story and character level. Why do they do the things they do?

    We can suppose in some way because of what we know of the other movies of course but that leads to contradiction with what they set up. So obviously something different is happening. Will that actually be answered later?
     
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  4. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    Which part confused you?
     
  5. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Rey and Finn are really confused and confusing characters so in relation to the duels it's just another event in relation to that.
     
  6. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2015
    What's confusing about them..? They're pretty straightforward characters.
     
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  7. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    The environment and upbringing doesn't connect into who they are. With Rey it's not so much an issue as she is supposed to be a mystery while for Finn it's ludicrous. This is very general though and as I said the duels engaged in are a part of that.

    Now Kylo Ren should make a lot more sense on first glance but doesn't either but we don't know what is his normal. The movie does seem to go out of it's way to make him less effective as it goes on. His degradation is also a key point.
     
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  8. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2014
    The fact that she was not even able to move a muscle against him the last time they met.
     
  9. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    I'm going to say no, that's not a legitimate reason, as explained below:

    Kylo was using a Force trick of some kind for that freezing ability, I'm going to guess a form of telekinesis. He actually uses it again when he throws her into the tree. He doesn't face her again until after he's dealt with Finn. By that point we know that his use of telekinesis was compromised by the pain he was in (Force Awakens junior novelization) -- watch him try and grab the saber from the ground. It takes a lot of effort and even then Rey is able to telekinetically grab it away from him (Rey's Story confirms that she had the stronger telekinetic grab).

    So, it doesn't come into play since Kylo was not in a position to use it effectively.
     
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  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    From the moment Rey resists his mind probe, while he betrays his own insecurities at the same time, his command over all force abilities is undermined. He's forced into a position of admitting failure and proving himself anew to Snoke. Something that he clearly doesn't relish and is compromised with an accumulating fear of failure. The arrival of Han Solo, his biggest test, creates tge perfect storm for Ren to lose his grip decisively at the time when Rey is emerging.
     
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  11. Pluvial

    Pluvial Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    I don't think there's ever been a claim of outright logical contradiction. This would suggest the sheer impossibility of the duel's outcome. Far more commonplace is the idea that the preponderance of evidence suggests that Rey's victory is suspect, and representative of Rey's hyper-competence.

    Kylo's duel with Finn was demonstrably not competitive. You seem to think that this may have had some adverse impact on his ability to pull the lightsaber. I disagree, but it it not my intent to debate interpretation. It is still significant for Rey to pull a lightsaber away from Kylo even if he was struggling.
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Suspected hypercompetence?

    Pluvial Why must hypercompetence be the excuse for the duel's outcome? That would imply that Rey's victory can only be explained by a quantitative advantage over Ren in competence. And while her background is not fully known, the experience necessary to have acquired that advantage does not exist. Therefore it is inferred that undue prominence s given to Rey, i.e. "hypercompetence".
     
  13. VaderTheGreat

    VaderTheGreat Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2017
    But pain is supposed to make Dark Siders stronger? Why is this rule suddenly forgotten?
     
  14. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Pain, maybe, could make Dark Siders stronger, that isn't stated in the films, but it does mesh well with what we know of them. Bleeding out will definitely not make anybody stronger, Dark or Light sider. Think of all those midichlorians, just leaking out onto the ground. Sad.
     
  15. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016

    I'm just citing what canon says in this instance. Some have suggested that that the adult novelization implies that Kylo was somehow getting a boost from his fight with Finn, but that's not conclusive. Where is is written about pain boosting the dark side? That sounds familiar, but I can't place it (if only in Legends, that might not have carried over). Like Sarge said, I think in this case, the injury would've counteracted any advantages the pain could've given him.
     
  16. Prequel_Rubbish

    Prequel_Rubbish Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Kylo also never showed any weaknesses when using the force in the rest of the movie. So there was no setup for that line of thought. It's not like he was shown trying and failing to use force powers, which would then explain him losing the fight at the end. He's pretty much just an emo badass who does whatever he wants for 2 hours and then loses the fight at the end because ....uh, reasons.
     
  17. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    The whole movie is just uh ... reasons. Nothing really fits together or makes sense if you scratch a bit on the surface of it. From a garbage collector's hypercompetence to the First Order building a weapon greater than the Death Star. One poster said that the duel doesn't go against the internal logic of the movie and he is right because there is no common sense to anything happening. It's whateverland.
     
  18. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016

    Getting shot in the gut will really screw up your day, regardless of your skills beforehand, and his troubles in the duel are tied to that. It's not relevant what he was shown doing or not doing before, since that's what his performance is tied to. However, there is some suggestion that his Force skills may not be the best of the best prior; We do know that he's afraid he won't measure up to Vader, so the idea that he might not be the master we think is planted there. We also see him have trouble mind-reading Rey sometime prior to the duel. So, it's not totally out of the blue.
     
  19. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Should be the title of JJ's next movie.
     
  20. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    For me a lot of the "hypercompetence" comes from her not only resisting Ben's psychic advances, but also being able to read his mind with absolutely no difficulty. Not to mention her being able to pull off a mind trick with no issues at all. If it was just her defeating a severely wounded man in a test of might then I wouldn't have much of an issue but when it comes to the Force in general, the film is weapons-grade horse****.
     
  21. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2009
    A reminder to everyone that this thread is not the Bashers' Sanctuary.
     
  22. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Which makes one wonder why they simply didn't have Finn be the one to get knocked out. Avoid all the problems with having Finn face Kylo and go straight to Rey vs Kylo establishing that what worked before for him against her now doesn't.

    It's not unreasonable to interpret the above as the reason why he can't do it to her again but the take down working on her seconds before plays against that.
     
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  23. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014

    I find it strange that you are willing and able to perform incredible mental gymnastics in order to make the fist six saga films completely coherent in character motivation, character arcs, aesthetics, tone, plot logic etc, and yet when it comes to episode VII you seemingly lose all ability to do so.

    It's almost as if you apply your forensic knowledge of every aspect of the films differently, with a deliberate choice to do so positively with eps I-VI and negatively for VII.

    I simply don't believe that you wouldn't be able to defend TFA with exactly the same level of detail and length of postings if you chose to - which makes your analysis of all films biased and slightly dishonest.
     
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  24. VaderTheGreat

    VaderTheGreat Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 3, 2017
    The reason the duel was bad is simply because Rey is the newest Disney princess. Disney has always catered to girls and the male characters in their films have always been stupid and plain evil.

    A logical conclusion to this duel would've been a stalemate, with Kylo slightly injuring Rey. Rey would be saved by the ground breaking apart. But nope...instead we got the cheesy 'the force...' moment.

    God I hope Rian will tone Force.exe down in the next one.
     
  25. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Fixed that for you.