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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Canyon D, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Modercreeper Is Always Watching star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    And, I fixed your fix. Bold makes the changes easier to read, and thus moderate.
     
  2. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    My asterisks pretty much always mean "I can't remember how to embolden text" anyway
     
  3. Pro Scoundrel

    Pro Scoundrel Modercreeper Is Always Watching star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 20, 2012
    Highlight the line you want to bold, and click the B icon on the top/left of the font controls.
     
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  4. STARBOB

    STARBOB Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2002
    that duel was a joke and made no sense in the way characters learn the force in starwars. I know it's not popular but I truly believe the duel went down the way it did was because KK didn't have patience to wait for episode 8 or 9 for her female hero to kick butt in a duel. She wanted it in the very 1st fight.
     
  5. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    #MakeLightsaberDuelsGreatAgain

    #MenRule
     
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Not at all.

    I try like crazy to do the mental gymnastics for TFA and overall I think I have been quite successful for the most part. I accept that they really didn't want to do anything actually new and that their rationale for this was this was all a set-up for the ST. OK. particularly weak premise that really places VIII and IX in a potentially bad position but that is their choice.

    That this approach is very much against the Star Wars approach of doing something new each time and pushing things forward is obviously not something that appeals to me. I don't think we need a reminder of what already happened in the previous 6 movies.

    So the question is that a Lucas thing that I accept what he does more readily?

    Is that because I trust in Lucas' innate storytelling over 6 movies as opposed to JJ Abrams who going in I already was exposed to his character and story style in his movies (Trek in particular which also has problems that I and others perceive)

    Well the answer to that in part was found in R1 which made as about as much sense to me overall as any of the saga films outside of VII. R1 was obviously in part treading on the same ANH ground as TFA did but it's hardly a surprise that Lucas actually liked R1 himself as opposed to TFA which as he said was "for the fans"

    As I have said ad nauseam I find TFA largely inoffensive and entertaining. Do I find it the least of all SW films? Yes. Do I hope that this is the nadir of the new movies? I hope so.

    It's a much more difficult challenge to do so (for myself at least) because a character like Finn makes no sense to me. Who he is in action and what the movie is telling us he should be simply don't connect.The same can be said of Rey as well but as she is a mystery to the audience and herself as to her nature it makes accepting the disconnection of her character not as outstanding as Finn.

    As a character the problem with her is that they prized mystery over character as JJ does. TFA comes off like a TV pilot in many ways but it's supposed to be the first of a trilogy of movies.


    As I have said JJ is so convinced that hero characters have to be "likeable" that it over-rides story and character. As JJ said "The only requirement that Larry Kasdan and I imposed: The movie needed to be delightful"

    Which is fine. I accept that is what they wanted to do. They wanted that over everything else. OK then but when that shows in the characters and story in very evident ways it's not like I am simply going to overlook it. JJ is of course fundamentally different from Lucas. Lucas makes silent films while JJ is a words film first approach.


    Of course I could IF I bought into the most basic premises on which the movie and story and characters are based on. I don't though. My analysis IS biased because TFA is done on premises that illicit a natural and organic reaction to how I think of Star Wars as movies. The way that Lucas made I-VI and the way Edwards made R1 which is not the way that JJ made TFA.

    I hope I have made that quite clear in the past (I think I have) and so I am being totally honest about it. What will be interesting is what will happen in TLJ because if my reaction to it is like TFA then I'll have to assess what that means but if as I suspect it will fall either in with the other movies or close enough that TFA will still be on it's own as the Star Wars movie that is fundamentally anti-Star Wars in it's approach.

    Like I've said both ROTS and TFA in their own ways are remakes of ANH but the one is a new movie that moves the story forward. It's progressive and makes the whole better. TFA is regressive. It inches the story forward. Again this is all deliberate. The take several steps backwards being before going forwards.

    “[‘The Force Awakens’] was a bridge and a kind of reminder; the audience needed to be reminded what ‘Star Wars’ is, but it needed to be established with something familiar, with a sense of where we are going to new lands, which is very much what 8 and 9 do. The weird thing about that movie is that it had been so long since the last one. Obviously the prequels had existed in between and we wanted to, sort of, reclaim the story. So we very consciously — and I know it is derided for this — we very consciously tried to borrow familiar beats so the rest of the movie could hang on something that we knew was ‘Star Wars.'”

    I think you could do both at the same time but that would require setting the story differently. JJ was guided by the idea that he wanted to recreate ANH but to me it seems that he got caught between the reality of what made ANH what it was in the creative drivers of it compared to wanting to recreate the effects of it's being made.

    ANH was made as a one-off that happened to continue afterwards while TFA is very deliberately the first of at least a trilogy and likely other movies after that.
     
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  7. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    "I accept that they really didn't want to do anything actually new"

    Nope - there were indeed new ideas and themes in TFA, and clearly you don't "accept" the amount of newness at all - you're passive aggressive about it consistently.
    Which is exactly what I'm talking about. If you wanted to, you could go into forensic detail about the new stuff in TFA just as you would do if someone told you that they thought AOTC looked "too digital"; you've just chosen not to do so, because of your personal preferences.

    It's Obviously absolutely fine to choose what you defend based on your personal preferences, but since so much of your debating is based on what you put out there as fact based information, the honest thing to do is to own the fact that your own biases lead you to zero in on negatives in the film about which you clearly have issues (which if I'm not mistaken, are to some extent related to George Lucas's lack of continuing involvement. Again. Totally valid to feel that way, not totally valid for you to not acknowledge that you could defend TFA forensically for the stuff you criticise if you wanted to
     
  8. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Let's discuss posts and not posters.
     
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  9. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 3, 2014
    OK - what I mean is that forensic analysis is all well and good, but it can only really be worthwhile if the analysis drives the conclusion, rather than the other way round.
    As someone who loves TFA, I reckon I could make a pretty solid argument against it if I put my mind to it, and it's frustrating to see polarised arguments when part of the process is ignoring inconvenient bits, or downplaying them.
     
  10. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Your entitled to your opinion, but I've found that, looking at Star Wars as a whole, TFA has been generally in line with canon in regards to Force learning (newbies being able to perform some tasks right of the bat, for instance).
     
  11. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Hell, Anakin was able to not only fly in but win a podrace with his Force abilities without any training whatsoever. And he was nine! Don't tell me Rey (who's already a damn good fighter) can't win a sword fight against a gravely wounded combatant who isn't even trying to kill her.
     
  12. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    :rolleyes:

    Good job, don't mention the hypnosis. It might hurt your narrative.
     
  13. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Um... what? Who was hypnotized? Are we making stuff up now? Okay. I enjoyed that part where Droppy McCool gave Obi-Wan a piggyback ride when his speeder broke down. Anyone remember that? Epic!
     
  14. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    When Rey mind-tricked the guard into releasing her. You know, that ability she randomly pulled out her ass?

    For the record:

    Hypnosis: the induction of a state of consciousness in which a person apparently loses the power of voluntary action and is highly responsive to suggestion or direction.
     
  15. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    Wait, I want to hear more about the adventures of Droopy McCool and Obi-Wan Kenobi.
     
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  16. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Oh, that. I thought we were talking about the duel which is the topic of this thread. That's why I was confused. ;)

    I'm working on a fan fiction. I'll send it to you when I'm done. :p
     
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  17. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Ah, I see. Should have made that more clear.

    Regardless, I was grouping in your quote with WebLurker 's when it comes to novices learning Force techniques with little to no instruction.
     
  18. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    As has been said countless times in this thread, ANH features a young man exclusively using the Force to blow up the Death Star after "little to no instruction"--certainly nothing about firing proton torpedoes using the Force. Clearly, "using the Force" is a generic, easily transferable skill. There's no reason to assume it can't also be transferred to lightsaber combat, especially for someone already gifted with melee weapons.
     
  19. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    Rey doing the Jedi mind trick has an explanation though. When Kylo is trying to Force-mind-read her, that exposure to the Force triggers something in her that allows her to reverse it back to Kylo (it's actually very similar to when, in the 5th Harry Potter book, Harry manages to reverse the mind-reading back onto Snape). And that was basically her "awakening" (perhaps re-awakening?) in the Force. Whereas some people like Luke have a tough time believing in themselves, Rey seems to have no such issue and is thus able to start using the Force in various ways that she sets her mind to. Also, it's not unreasonable to think that the "Jedi mind trick" is something famous that the Jedi are known for (Jabba in ROTJ even mentions that the old Jedi mind trick wouldn't work on him) and thus, Rey probably already knows that it's a thing; all that's left is for her to believe that she can do it. And she succeeds at believing where Luke initially failed numerous times.

    EDIT: Sorry, this is supposed to be about the duel. So to bring it back to that, I'll just say that everything I've mentioned can also be applied to the moment where she calls upon the Force during her duel with Kylo.
     
  20. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    You know bringing the other movie's precedents into this discussion about the other movie's precedents is just unfair! :p
     
  21. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    Luke was using the Force to enhance a skill that he already had. BEING A PILOT. Also, considering that he would have been easily killed in the trench without Biggs using himself as a meat shield and Han saving his ass at the last second, using the Force to guide the torpedoes (which only served to bolster his accuracy in the cockpit) would have been entirely meaningless. Meanwhile, you have Rey using a mindtrick against First Order troops without any previous idea of how to do it. Again, I already stated that the duel makes sense. All of her other feats involving the Force do not.

    By the way, let's not forget that all the stuff that Luke learns in ANH (and even TESB) like blast deflection and telekinesis doesn't even reach actual combat effectiveness until ROTJ. Hell, the only victory he wins using a lightsaber before ROTJ is against a hallucination and a wild animal (that he only manages to wound).

    Except the only times the mind trick (or any form of extraction of information via the Force) has ever been resisted are by those who belong to an alien species with a resistance/immunity towards such abilities. The two examples of such resistance were Watto (a Toydarian) and Jabba (a Hutt). So, it would require FAR more skill in order to be able to persuade such individuals. Considering that Rey had no knowledge of the Force until Han told her and Ben was already somewhat proficient (at the very least) in it, her doing something like that makes no sense at all.

    This information is what also voids you comparison to Harry Potter because the Star Wars universe and the Harry Potter universe operate differently when it comes to those with extraordinary abilities.
     
  22. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2015
    You're confusing the idea of "new information" and "contradiction". I'll give some examples to illustrate that.

    Up until ROTJ, the only Force powers we had seen were the mind-trick and levitating objects. So does it make "no sense at all" when the Emperor starts shooting Force lightning? Of course not. It's simply a new application of the Force that we are being told about by the movie. Does it make "no sense at all" when Luke Force grabs his lightsaber on Hoth in the cave just because we had never seen that before? Again, I don't think so. Similarly, just because we had not seen anyone resist the Jedi mind invasion before, does not mean that it makes "no sense at all". It's simply information that we are being given about Rey that we can use to infer about what direction her character will go. I'm willing to bet that it's going to be a big plot point in future movies.
     
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  23. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003

    No... no... no. Half the debates in here are completely dependent upon moving goalposts. Luke's inexplicable use of the Force to blow up the Death Star is an invalid point because he's a man.
     
  24. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 3, 2016
    LOL
     
  25. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Darth Maul vs Jinn and Maul vs Jinn and Kenobi I think is still the greatest SW duels on camera yet. Ray's fighting style just blew everyone out've the water really and I don't think can be replicated without them returning Ray as Maul to the big screen again- he was that awesome.

    I think with Rey's fighting ability, you have to presume a lot, since they tell us precious little on screen. Rey is particularly gifted like Anakin was in TPM(don't think Luke) and then her being a magnificent sword fighter comes from her years as a scavenger working for Plutt and somehow a quarterstaff equals being proficient with a lightsaber despite the weapon being different from a regular sword(Kanan trains Sabine). With Rey though, she was clearly tapping into the Dark Side, she tapped into it or was using it without realizing it since its more instinctive and primitive and done through emotion, but again she seems more a Force prodigy akin to Anakin over Luke and the too many homages to the OT blur the lines as its there to make sure the audience gets the references not so much that tis a natural piece of storytelling or that these characters are supposed to exist. So is she a clone of Anakin, is she another chosen one born trough the living Force, is she some kinda reincarnation of someone is she another Skywalker? Problem with Rey is she's more a mystery than Luke or Anakin was in their debuts films(ANH and TPM) and unlike them, she was not trained by a Jedi. The Jedi massacre is hard to dicpher, was she really there or just projecting herself . Did somehow erase her memory, why would the Force take her on a journey to find Anakin's lightsaber a weapon that he used to strike down and murder Jedi with and Luke barely used it(least in the films and poorly in the comics). How she was able to overtake Kylo Ren, someone they built up as very powerful in the Force(a proficient Dark Side user and former Jedi of Luke's) basically Vader 2.0 , still is a problem. Was Rey somehow tapping into the lightsaber's memory where her skills werent really her own per say but those of Anakin's (who surely could wipe the floor with Kylo), the lightsaber calls/comes to her twice in the film first at Maz's and then in the snow.