The Editting discussion

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Rebel Scumb, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    This is a thread to discuss editting in AOTC, whether you deem it good or bad. The only condition I would set (aside from keeping things civil) is to use specific examples. If you plan to post "the editting is awesome, GL rules!" Or conversely "the editting sucked!" then please refrain unless you have some sort of specific examples to back it up.

    To get the ball rolling, I've always felt, and others have agreed with me on this, that the last shot of the 'shaak riding scene' when Anakin and Padme are rolling in the grass that the scene waits about two seconds too long to wipe to the next scene. Its a hard thing to explain if you haven't made movies before, but both hayden and Portman seem to be waiting for GL to yell "cut".

    agree? disagree?
  2. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Good thread!

    I know the pre-wipe that you're thinking of, RebelScumb. It has never particularly bothered me, but I can see how something little like that can be magnified in a (repeat-)viewer's mind to the point where it becomes annoying.

    The editing "thing" that most caught my attention on opening night was the abrupt transition from Anakin's search on Tatooine to Obi Wan on Geonosis. Of course I presumed that the robed figure scaling the rocks was Anakin, and was surprised and more than a little disoriented (!) to realize that it was Obi Wan and that we weren't on Tatooine any more. I was paying close attention, but I wept in my heart for all the poor souls who weren't paying attention and who were just confused. I didn't like this.

    Since then, the abrupt cut has grown on me. I now *enjoy* the fact that the editing here FORCES the viewer to draw parallels between the quest of the master and the quest of the apprentice. I like that the director and editor trust the viewer enough to make the necessary connections. I like that we're not being spoon-fed the story.
  3. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    If memory serves, the original cut of the scene had Anakin kissing Padme after they stared at each other. Then they both got up, and looked away from each other awkward like.

    If what I said is correct, I think it was a smart move, since it would have ruined the fun time they had, which they don't have enough of. Most of the time they are together, they are serious about their love. The meadow picnic was a good example of them just having fun and forgetting their emotions.

    And I was never bothered by the cut myself.
  4. Well_Of_Souls Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2001
    star 5
    I agree that the final shot of the scene you mentioned was just a little too long, and looked fairly goofy to begin with.

    An excellenty edited sequence, however, is the Obi/Jango battle on Kamino. It is edited flawlessly and is one of the best action scenes in any SW film to date. Plus, the music is especially good in this scene.

    The speeder chase is also very well done, although a little too long.
  5. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I second that vote for the Obi-Wan/Jango battle. Everything is crisp and clear.

    Contrast it with a fight scene from, say, Daredevil.

    If I can mention a different SW film...I've always marvelled at the Jabba's Sail Barge battle in ROTJ. We have several characters and happenings to follow, and it's all squeezed into around 4 minutes. I remember, at the time, when they submitted the sequence for editing, there were more cuts in that single battle then you'd find in most films :) Well over 100, to try to show just what was happening to Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, Jabba, Boba, the droids, and the rest. That's a lot to follow.
  6. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Oh of course I can't forget to mention the slaughter of the sand people. I thought the circular wipe was totally cool, but I felt ripped off that we weren't allowed to see Anakin's full rage. It was frustrating.

    As a viewer, I needed the visual confirmation that this good looking boy *could* be Darth Vader.

    And then ...

    I found the garage-scene confession to be so devastatingly satisfying (all the more for its delay!), that, looking back, I had to reconsider the cut-away from Tatooine to Yoda's meditation and decided that it was just bloody brilliant.

    It's a complete manipulation of the viewer's expectations and compels us to consider what it is -- exactly -- that we're looking for and waiting to see. We have to come to terms with *our own* bloodlust. And then we're *shown* exactly how much more powerful words can be than images ... and this from a movie which is ALL ABOUT IMAGE.
  7. George15 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2002
    star 4
    The editting is awesome, GL rules!

    Oops,sorry RS I couldn't resist.
  8. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    As a viewer, I needed the visual confirmation that this good looking boy *could* be Darth Vader.

    Anakin beheading three Tuskens, one in a close-up, wasn't enough?

    -Otis
  9. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, I'm glad GL decided to only show three Tuskens (male) getting killed. It makes the impact of him confessing that he killed the women and children as well later on much more powerful.

    And the circular wipe was very cool indeed :cool:



    I think the entire Battle of Geonosis was a great editing display.

    First of all, most of us know that there was a lot more added to the battle, including more between Jango and Mace, a longer lightsaber duel, a space battle, and the Ki-Adi/Plo Koon raid to name a few things.

    But I think it was all edited very well. It could have been one long action sequence, but I think GL found a great contrast between how much action there should be.

    A good editing example is the Jango/Mace battle. We all know their fight was longer. But it's edited so smoothly, I couldn't tell that there was anything more to their fight.

    And let's not forget how challenging editing the whole thing together would be. They had to take scene after scene that was shot seperate and edit them all together. I think everything flows well.
  10. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin beheading three Tuskens, one in a close-up, wasn't enough?

    Nope. This is Darth Vader we're talking about here! :p
  11. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    The thing I love about the Tusken Camp scene is how we're shown just enough (Anakin killing three Tuskens) before it takes us away from that and we don't return for a few minutes.

    I distinctly remember thinking "Damn! What the hell is he (Anakin) doing?" I really wanted to know what had happened, and when he confesses to Padme...wow.

    EDIT: To make it clearer, I wasn't annoyed that I didn't see what Anakin was up to (chopping up Tuskens), I was more unbelieving that he'd just snapped.
  12. C3POED_OUT Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2003
    star 3
    The Tusken Raider sequence never fails to give me the chills. The imagery is nothing short of eerie, and spine-inducingly powerful.
  13. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I'm not a fan of the circle wipe during the slaughter, not so much from wanting to see a bit more of Anakins rampage, but I jsut find the shot it ends on is awkward to wipe from. I think the film could've benefitted from cutting from that great shot of anakin after he beheads the third tusken, to a wide shot of the village where we can hear more tusken screams and lightsaber action, then wipe to Yoda.


    "The editing "thing" that most caught my attention on opening night was the abrupt transition from Anakin's search on Tatooine to Obi Wan on Geonosis."

    Agreed, though for me this is more a problem because Geonosis was not a very unique environment, if it had been more distinct from Tatooine then the intercutting in this spot would not have been an issue methinks.
  14. Icebreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2001
    star 4
    [color=336699] when Anakin and Padme are rolling in the grass that the scene waits about two seconds too long to wipe to the next scene. Its a hard thing to explain if you haven't made movies before, but both hayden and Portman seem to be waiting for GL to yell "cut".

    While I agree that the cut doesnt 'fit' as well as it should...there is a reason that they both seem to be 'waiting' for something. In the script they are supposed to stop and stare at each other for a few moments before realizing it was 'awkward'. They would then quickly disengage from each other and stand up (somewhat embarassed)

    What you have in the movie is that they trimmed the scene down as best they could...but obviously it is somewhat noticable that something is missing. Just thought I would point that out
    ;)



    ~ICeBReaKeR[/color]
    He has never been cooler...
  15. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "I think the entire Battle of Geonosis was a great editing display."

    Parts of it are, others could be much much better. There is a part where some missles get fired at a ship but then the scene cuts before they actually hit.

    Now speaking with a bit of educated bias, as I've actually reedited AOTC for my own interests, I made a few changes to the battle of geonosis, I won't go through all of them in this post because most are minor and not that relevant, though one that I should mention is that I combined the two scenes with the badguys in the warroom into one scene.

    anyways...

    One spot that I definitly, definitly could've worked better is the following: Mace entering the arena. (For those who have heard my opinion on this before, bare with me.)

    As the scene plays in the film, Nute calls for Jango to "finish her off.

    Jango nods about to draw his pistol, but stops short when Dooku chimes in;

    Dooku"Patience Viceroy, patience, she will die.'

    A bunch of droid deka roll into the arena, and trap the heros, we see mace sneak up on dooku, we cut back to our heros encircled.

    Suddenly, Mace ignites his saber to Jango's throat. Dooku turns to address him.

    Dooku"Master Windu, how pleasent of you to join us"

    Windu"This party's over!"

    Suddenly we cut to a bunch of jedi activating their sabers around the arena with some low key music.

    We cut back to Dooku.

    Dooku"brave my old jedi friend, but foolish. You're impossibly outnumbered.

    Windu"I don't think so"

    Dooku"We will see"

    A bunch of SBD attack Mace.


    **Now here's how it plays in my version:

    Nute calls for Jango to "finish her off."

    Jango nods about to draw his pistol.

    But before he can, Mace ignites his saber to Jango's throat. Dooku turns to address him.

    Dooku"Master Windu, how pleasent of you to join us"

    Windu"This party's over!"

    Dooku"brave my old jedi friend, but foolish. You're impossibly outnumbered.

    Windu"I don't think so"

    Suddenly we cut to a bunch of jedi activating their sabers around the arena with an exciting rendition of the SW theme music.(I grabbed it fromt he ROTJ soundtrack when Luke first ignites his saber on the sail barge)

    We cut back to Dooku.

    Dooku"We will see"

    A bunch of SBD attack Mace.


    Why I think this works better is two fold:

    1)It amkes the danger to the heros more personal as instead of a bunch of droid dekas, its jango who is going to kill Padme, only he is stopped by Windu. It also makes Windu going after Jango make a bit more sense,a nd it makes this scene faster paced and suspenseful. Mace appearing is also a bit more of a surprise.

    2)The pay off of the other jedi is bigger, at first we think a)"oh no Jango is going to shoot padme!" then b)"ah, Mace is here to save them. c)but according to Dooku, Mace is outnumbered, which of course he is about a million to one d)"I don't think so" says mace as the rest of the jedi make their appearance.

    Thoughts?
  16. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "While I agree that the cut doesnt 'fit' as well as it should...there is a reason that they both seem to be 'waiting' for something. In the script they are supposed to stop and stare at each other for a few moments before realizing it was 'awkward'."

    That makes sense, but if that was the intent there should of been a close up of them.

    I think it would also make sense to swap this scene with the first kiss scene,s o that the romance builds up to the kiss, the way it is now seems a kind of odd, that they kiss and then just act all romantic but at the same time awkward, I know thats kind of the point, but I think swapping the two scenes is still a good idea.
  17. Vanthorne_OX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    star 3
    Interesting Rebel Scumb. But remember, not just Padme, but Anakin and Obi-Wan are in danger already. A circle of droidekas surround them and await Dooku's commands.

    Also, is it bad that we don't see some missles hit their target? Should every explosion be seen? The cut away before impact is just another way to do it. Sometimes it's good not to get locked into conventions. There's already enough explosions on screen as is. My favorite being the trio of explosions before the cut to the second war room scene.
  18. That_Wascally_Droid Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2001
    star 6
    I actually loved the shots of Windu's feet and head whn it happened. In the theater I was at, the audience went wild, and then again when the Jedi ignited their sabers. The first calvary had arrived.
    In your version, you just have a purle lightsaber out of nowhere. I dunno. Seems to sudden for me.
    But one edit that really confused me the first time, was the aforementioned cut from Anakin to Obi-Wan. I though Obi-Wan was Anakin. But subsequent viewings I knew better, so it doesn't bug me now.
  19. Jedi knight Pozzi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2000
    star 6
    Regarding the circular wipe, does it feel like Lucas is using (can't think of a good term to use) some sort of double wipe?

    First the circular, but then at the same time, he uses the wall in the Jedi council as a horizontal wipe to Yoda.
  20. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    "The editing "thing" that most caught my attention on opening night was the abrupt transition from Anakin's search on Tatooine to Obi Wan on Geonosis"

    I thought the same thing the first time I saw AOTC. Both characters were wandering around a brownish atmosphere in the dark, with rock formations nearby. I'm not sure how this could have been improved, though.
  21. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    re: the rolling in the grass, I think the scene would have looked better if they had edited it to only one roll- ie padme fake-slaps Anakin, he grabs her arms and they begin to roll- edit- they finish their rolling.

    re: obi-geonosis/anakin-tusken transition, I totally agree that it confuses the unperceptive audience.

    re: Mace's arena entrance, I think the simple loss of Mace's feet make his entrance more exciting, because now his saber activation is more of a surprise- taking the audience offguard as it does the villians. The footsteps shot forehsdaowed it too much and made it less of a surprise. Though, Rebel Scum's switcheroo with the jedi entrance might enhance that even more.

    I think editing the picnic scene so that it preceeds the "stolen kiss" would have helped the love story as well- as you'd have more of a arming up to anakin on Padm's part.


    All of my specific comments about editingb AOTC can be found in this thread, which describes the cuts I plan o make to the film for my own version (once I get the hang of my DVD converters):

    Attack of the Qlones: Quest's Qut
  22. The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2003
    star 4
    I've always felt, and others have agreed with me on this, that the last shot of the 'shaak riding scene' when Anakin and Padme are rolling in the grass that the scene waits about two seconds too long to wipe to the next scene.

    That cut never bothered me, because its as though Padme is looking into Anakin's eyes and seeing something in him.

    I found the cut in the Jango/Obi battle to be awful. The scene cut is a little pivot made by Obi-Wan as he is charging towards Jango. One second Obi-Wan is by the door walking closer to Jango, then he starts to make another move before it cuts to Jango, with Obi-Wan right infront of him making a different move. I would not have cut the scene. This looks sloppy. However for the rest of the fight, it is good. I would of, however, changed some angles. We get a closeup of Obi-Wans lightsaber hiting the deck, then a couple of shots latter we see another closeup of Obi-Wan kicking Jango, and then another shot of Jango's blaster hitting the deck. What I would have done instead is, have a long shot Obi-Wans loosing his saber as he gets showered by Slave 1 shots, with the saber hitting infront of the screen. Obi-Wan could then be looking at his saber before he hears Jango coming, which acknowledges that he knows he has lost it and he knows where it is. I would also have zoomed out a little bit more when Obi-Wan kicks Jango, because it just doesn't looks right to have it zoomed in so close.

    I love the Tusken slaughter scene. During my first viewing I thought it was excellent, and I had no desire to see more. The dissolve shows Anakins rage in his facial expressions. It also makes the confession scene so much more powerful as we are hearing what he has just committed. Sometimes its better not to see things and leave it upto your imagination. Steven Spielberg belives that if he started to make Jaws now he would have screwed it up by showing too much of the shark. Not seeing that shark for along time gets the anticipation going, and we start to think about how big it is and so on.

    The scene with Mace walking in is also great, IMO. Showing the Jedi igniting their sabers after Mace has just sprouted his line makes the Jedi look like their here on a mission - to save Obi-Wan and stop Dooku. It also shows that Dooku can see how many Jedi there are, and he still knows that there is no way that the Jedi can defeat the amount of battledroids he is going to through at them. I would have put in a line that make Mace seem less of an idiot. In the script there is an extra piece of dialogue that goes something like this:

    Dooku: Brave but foolish my old Jedi friend, your impossibly outnumbered.
    Mace: I dont think so. 1 Jedi has to worth 100 Geonosians.
    Dooku: Maybe but lets how they fare against 1000 battledroids.

    I read that months and months ago, so Im off, but I do remember it showing that Mace wasn't aware of the battledroids. It also shows Mace arrogance, that he feels that a single Jedi can take on so many Geonosians, and that the Geonasians are an inferior race.

    The Mace/Jango fight should not have happened in my opinion - it should have been left for Obi-Wan. However since it did happen, Jango went out far too easily. We should have seen Mace struggle a little like we did with Obi-Wan. Sure, it makes Mace look very powerful, however he is going to die in the next movie and isn't important to the saga. Obi-Wan is. So I would have some of the shots put back in, it is hard to say which ones without seeing the full scene however.

    If anyone reads my posts around here you will notice that I dispise the editing in the Saber duels. The cuts make Obi-Wan and Anakin look like Younglins. I understand that Dooku is a master and is one of the best duelists the Jedi have seen, however this should be shown through his saber skills, not by making Obi-Wan and Anakin look like first timers. Obi-Wan was utterly helpless against Dooku, as we can see in his fight, however I felt that it was cut prematurely. Although outclassed, Obi-Wan should have put up more a fi
  23. DARK_SCORE Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 4
    Two gripes:

    During the lightsaber battle between Dooku and Anakin/Obi-Wan, Dooku performs a mid-air flip over the Jedi. Before he has even finished the leap, or hit the ground, the next shot has him walking about and talking. It needed more transition between the two shots. Just one of those things that drew me out of the proceedings.

    Secondly, and this is more of a script gripe, there's a scene in the Geonosis war room when Poggle the Lesser turns to Dooku and says, "Our communications have been jammed." Then it cuts back to the battle. I just don't see the point of that scene - other than as a purely expositional tool. It's like many of the Trade Federation shots in TPM, which seemed to end before they had even started. What makes it worse is that Poggle's line is so flat and meaningless. So what if the communications have been jammed?!? What does it mean?!? He should have said something like - "The communications have been jammed! We'll need to start evacuating the ships/We won't be able to order a retreat etc etc etc..." It's just a very flat scene...

    DARKO
    :cool:
  24. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "A good editing example is the Jango/Mace battle. We all know their fight was longer. But it's edited so smoothly, I couldn't tell that there was anything more to their fight."

    Agreed,t his is probably the best editted scene of the film.

    "And let's not forget how challenging editing the whole thing together would be. They had to take scene after scene that was shot seperate and edit them all together."

    Well thats true of any film though.
  25. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    "Also, is it bad that we don't see some missles hit their target? Should every explosion be seen?"

    No, but int his case it feels choppy, and Anakin/padme/obi-wan already feel pretty absent from the clone battle, its nice to show them doing something. I don't need to see every explosion, but the relevent ones should be seen.

    "In your version, you just have a purle lightsaber out of nowhere. I dunno. Seems to sudden for me."

    But thats good isn't it, faster more intense, I haev a feeling GL intended to do it this way at one point then added int he circle of Dekas, because the scene cuts seemlessly this way, when I showed my cut and the Lucas cut to a friend who had not sen AOTC, he thought the Lucas cut was my cut, and my cut was the lucas cut.

    The way it appears in the movie confuses me, the dekas seem to be waiting for Dookus order, but Dooku seems to be waiting for them to fire. why do they wait so long?

    "The scene with Mace walking in is also great, IMO. Showing the Jedi igniting their sabers after Mace has just sprouted his line makes the Jedi look like their here on a mission - to save Obi-Wan and stop Dooku. It also shows that Dooku can see how many Jedi there are, and he still knows that there is no way that the Jedi can defeat the amount of battledroids he is going to through at them."

    Well the way I'm suggesting doesn't dretract from that, if anything it adds IMHO.

    And I agree 1000%, it should've been Obi-wan vs Jango. It was also a huge mistake to take Jango out of the conference scene. If anything they should of added him into the obi-wan interrogation scene, maybe a little ode to ESB. Dooku could've left the room to have Jango waiting outside the door (ala Vader leaving Han in the torture chamber to meet with Boba) and Jango could've jsut said something to the affect of "Told you it wouldn't work" Dooku could sneer and the two could walk away. Probably wouldn't have hurt if it had been Jango to take out Obi-wan in the hologram distress call.

    "As for deleted scenes. I would have cut the Queen Jamillia scene and replaced it with one of the scenes in Padme's home. The dinner scene is the best one in my opinion as it shows Anakin's and Padme's human side."

    Agreed, in my cut I did just that. I also lost the yoda floating chair scene and added int he mace/obi scene on the landing pad.
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