The Editting discussion

"Regarding the circular wipe, does it feel like Lucas is using (can't think of a good term to use) some sort of double wipe?

First the circular, but then at the same time, he uses the wall in the Jedi council as a horizontal wipe to Yoda."

Agreed, something about it does not look right, I can't describe it better then you did, it just looks, like two wipes at once.

"Both characters were wandering around a brownish atmosphere in the dark, with rock formations nearby. I'm not sure how this could have been improved, though."

Like I said, I thinkt he fault lies iwht the design team, they should of made Geonosis more unique. Since its suppose to be the rock planet it could've been grey, with big craters and more giant rocks, like the moon but with giant mountains and rocks. Conversely they made Tatooine a lot rockier in this film, I'm not sure why, but the shot we see of Anakin riding his swoop bike doesn't really look like Tatooine. I dunno.

"there's a scene in the Geonosis war room when Poggle the Lesser turns to Dooku and says, "Our communications have been jammed." Then it cuts back to the battle. I just don't see the point of that scene - other than as a purely expositional tool."

Agreed, thats why I combined the two war room scenes, the music comes to a peak and makes what Poggle is saying sound so dramatic and important, but its sucha throw away line. Another scene that ends on the wrong line is the morning on the balcony scene. Padme says "I'll go with you" but then Anakin says "I'm sorry I don't have a choice" It should of just ended on Padmes line, its more dramatic that way, its almost as if Anakin is still trying to convince her after she has agreed.

 

I agree that the whole Anakin racing to the Tusken scene only to cut to Geonosis was quite jarring. The action cut away from Anakin too soon -- before there was something for him or the audience to ponder. Shouldn't Anakin's sequence have lasted until he reached the cliff above the camp? Then the audience would receive some sort of closure from the sequence, before they enter into the Obi-Wan scenes. The way it exists now, it's easy to think that the Geonosis tower thing is the Tusken Superfortress or something.

But another scene that irks me is when Anakin cuts up the centipedes and races outside. Instead of immediately cutting to Anakin on the platform jumping into a speeder, we see Dorme rush in and say "are you all right m'lady?" That little bit is completely unnecessary and just gets in the way of the moment. I'm sure you removed that bit in your version of the film, eh Rebel Scumb?

 

I don't mean to be rude, but you really don't seem to like much about AOTC, right?

I mean, when it gets down to even criticizing the editing, that suggests that you find the film flawed on a fundamental level. Could anything stand up to this sheer level of dissection?

 

It's not so much an editing thing, but I found the overall shot selection in Attack Of The Clones to be excellent. Lucas covered all the action from multiple angles, and varied shots sufficiently that there were few instances where Ben Burtt could have gotten "stuck" with a scene (anybody who has tried to edit a two minute scene when you only have 1:30 worth of good footage knows how painful this can be!).

One aspect of the editing that I really enjoy is how much use is made of wide shots. There are several scenes that play out in a wide shot, allowing you to take in the sights and sounds of this alternate universe, letting the actors move through the frame rather than using cuts to create motion, and then when the dramatic timing is just right, the audience is naturally brought in closer to the characters. This technique works so well that it's almost subliminal.

A specific example is the "Dreams pass in time" scene. The first few shots of that scene are breathtaking wideshots, showing the splendor of Coruscant at night. When Obi-Wan asks about Anakin's mother, the action shifts to close-ups since it is critical that we see the character's emotions. This technique is used repeatedly throughout the entire film and gives things an excellent flow.

 

Secondly, and this is more of a script gripe, there's a scene in the Geonosis war room when Poggle the Lesser turns to Dooku and says, "Our communications have been jammed." Then it cuts back to the battle. I just don't see the point of that scene - other than as a purely expositional tool. It's like many of the Trade Federation shots in TPM, which seemed to end before they had even started. What makes it worse is that Poggle's line is so flat and meaningless. So what if the communications have been jammed?!? What does it mean?!?

I had no problem with this line. Jamming communications is a classic movie McGuffin used to show one's dominence over another. Whenever your communications are being jammed, it pretty much means you're up the creek without a paddle. Look at TPM where jammed communications preceeded a military invasion of Naboo. In ANH, Han assumed that jamming the fleeing TIE fighter's communication would give them the advantage. There are countless other examples in television and film where jammed communications carry similiar themes. In AOTC, the tables are turned as we see that it is the bad guys who are on the receiving end of jamming. In short, this seemingly throw away line actually shows the complete dominece of the clone army over the sepratists. In fact, when I first saw the film, after hearing this line I thought, "Damn...you boys are in trouble now!"

There's also the simple matter that hindering your enemy's lines of communication is sound military strategy, so realistically, the line really needs no explanation.

 

you really don't seem to like much about AOTC, right?

I mean, when it gets down to even criticizing the editing, that suggests that you find the film flawed on a fundamental level. Could anything stand up to this sheer level of dissection?

Interesting point.
But personally, I love the movies and still have some issues with the editing.
One thing that always bugged me about TPM and now about AOTC, is just how much they change everything in the editing itself. I keep seeing Ben Burtt & GL talk about how great it is to be able to use all this technology to use this take & that take to create a "supertake". Basically combining different elements of performance and effects to create the finished product. Great concept. Great idea. But I think after sitting in a room changing everything around for like 2 years, they lose some perspective.
IMO, GL changes the story too much during that process, along with making a few mistakes here or there.
Examples-
-When anakin walks away from Padme to look for his mom. His mouth keeps moving, but he isnt talking. Maybe there was a line GL didnt think fit for whatever reason, but even with all the CG work they do on characters like Watto, or insering his hand into the Naboo kiss, they leave in distracting little changes like that.
Some supertake. I guess that scene didnt get the attention it could have.
-Padme presses the same button in the ship twice to perform different functions.
Come on now. Thats just lazy.
-We see the same Jedi performing the same actions during the final battle. We know they filmed each person individually & then inserted them in, so why did they use the same take for the same person over and over again. Again- Lazy.
-And the scene mentioned earlier in this thread with the rolling in the meadow. Ok, he didnt think the kiss worked. Ok, some of you agree.
But the change in the script was so obvious, we all picked up on it. Something was wrong with the way that scene was cut and it showed.
Thats not good editing.
The ideal thing would be to re-shoot the scene. Just like the ideal thing for the battle would have been to have hundreds of people actually running around fighting and doing different moves so we dont see Stass Allie stabbing at the ground on 3 seperate identical occasions.

I know it would be really difficult & all that, but... isnt that the kind of stuff a director is supposed to do?

 

"I'm sure you removed that bit in your version of the film, eh Rebel Scumb?"

Actually I left it in, I remember I tried cutting it, but something about it didn't pace right, there was no good spot to cut it because its hard to cut on action, ala Dorme racing intot he room, for the same reason cutting the shot before the missles hit the ship feels off.

"I mean, when it gets down to even criticizing the editing, that suggests that you find the film flawed on a fundamental level. Could anything stand up to this sheer level of dissection?"

Yes, most films do, I look at every movie with an equally critical eye, infact I'm much more forgiving of AOTC then I would be any non-SW film. Films are made int he editting and the fact is GL is very good at editting as seen in his previous work, IMHO AOTC is far below his level so I hold him to a higher standard. I looked at TPM, adn the OT equally as critically, as I do every film I watch. This morning I popped X-men in the dvd player, I still enjoy this film (partially because I'm in it) but the editting could most definitly be better.

As for finding it flawed ona fundemental level, the writing and editting are my two biggest problems with AOTC. So I guess in a sense that is true. I wasn't the type to bash TPM with "Llyod sucks, jarjar sucks" these sort of things that bothered 95% of SW fans did not bother me, and I enjoy that film as I find it to be well crafted, even if the script could've been better. But with AOTC I see a film made beneath GLs level of talent. I don't need an ESB every single outting, but I demand that AOTC at elast be ofr the same quality as TPM. I don't thinkt hat there's anything wrong with expecting good editting from a film, especially one made by a seasoend and acclaimed director with several classic films under his belt,a high budget filmt hat took 3 years to make and has millions of fans world wide. Nof ilm should make these mistakes, especially one at this level with this kind of talent involved.

But I don't blame GL, there have been 5 SW films,a dn 4 of them have extremely good editting. I think the problem is that Ben Burtt was the only edittor where in all the other films they used professional edittors, I thinkthis is also why the sound design was less impressive with this outting, with BB spread too thin over too many responsiblities.

"It's not so much an editing thing, but I found the overall shot selection in Attack Of The Clones to be excellent."

Agreed, GLs shot composition has never been better.

"The first few shots of that scene are breathtaking wideshots, showing the splendor of Coruscant at night. When Obi-Wan asks about Anakin's mother, the action shifts to close-ups since it is critical that we see the character's emotions. This technique is used repeatedly throughout the entire film and gives things an excellent flow."

This is probably my favorite scene in terms of visuals. And to give critisism to TPM on this note, there were barely any character close ups, much to the films detriment.

"Actually, I think it's reference back to TPM: "A communications disruption can mean only one thing- invasion.""

Yeah, but I eman really who cares, jsut because something is a reference doesn't make it good. I mean Sw should not become a kevin smith movie where everything is a reference to a line from one of the other films. This line was not terribly important in TPm and its even less important in AOTC

as a note to 2ndQuest, one of the things I really enjoyed doing in my AOTC reedit was taking out the subtitles and re-writing them as I wanted, almost every line of poggle's got re-written in my version.

"Great idea. But I think after sitting in a room changing everything around for like 2 years, they lose some perspective.
IMO, GL changes the story too much during that process, along with making a few mistakes here or there."

I agree, the best example is in the seperatist meeting, where none of the lines flow into each otehr and everyone sounds like they are part of

 

scene 1, concentration camp, I'm the prisoner pushing the wheelbarrow that young magneto sees, then we see a close up of my arm with the numbers burned into it.

It was a very cool expirence I met bryan singer and talked a great deal with him, he event alked about how he met GL on the set of TPM to ask him advise about FX. The other cool sw tie in was the 2nd unit director, the guy who actually shot my little cameo was the 2nd unit director on ESB and shot all the live action footage for the hoth battle.

 

Yeah it was definitly one of the coolest things thats happened to me.

I'd post a screen cap if I could, but I lack the proper technology.

Anyways, back on topic, I thought another good scene to address is the speeder chase, generally considered by most to be the high point of AOTC, and the most starwars scene. I dig this scene, though I do find it a bit on the wordy side, does anyone agree?

 

The ever elusive Rebel Scumb ladies and gentlemen

(It's geocities, so drag and drop)




To the topic at hand, I didn't really mind the wordy-ness in that scene, though I thought it could have been better. It kind of remined me of that scene in the first MIB (you know, the good one ) when Jay hits the red button for the first time. Except not as well funny. I think it could have been better writen, and then it wouldn't have seemed as noticeably wordy.

 

Rebel Scumb, you lucky dog

As for the speeder chase being a bit wordy, I don't think so. I loved the interactions between Anakin and Obi-Wan. As Ewan McGregor said, they're like two friends who spend too much time together.

 

I agree that Obi-wan says "my young padawan" far too much, why can't he just call him Anakin?

Here's what I did to the chase, though like I said I really like this scene, and my re-edit was just as much an exercise in seeing what edits would work so don't take anything too personally.


-I got rid of the alien drivers and their wacky reactions
-When Obi-wanlands in the yellow speeder he says "what took you so long? and Ankin replies "Oh you know master, I couldn't find a speeder I really liked" then Obi-wan says "there he is!" and I cut to the next shot, losing all the subsequent dialogue
-after the whole "pull up anakin, pull up" part, I lost the whole "you know I don't like it when you do that", "sorry master, I forgot you don't like flying" (cringe) and jsut cut straight to "I don't mind flying but hwat you're doing is suicide". some have questioned my judgeemtn on this, but it makes it a lot more fast paced, liek the deathstar escape "don't get cocky kid" part of ANH, and the joke still works.
-I got rid of the whole part iwtht he power cuppling, the way I editted you don't really notice it being gone until your well into the next sequence
-when Obi-wan says "where are you going? he went that way!" I cut Anakins wordy reponse down to "this is a short cut, I think"
-I cut the lines "well You've lost him" and "I'm deeply sorry master", but I took Obi-wans line "That was some shortcut, he went completley the other way..." and over lapped it onto the the wideshot of the speeder slowing to a hault so the missing lines are not noticable
-I lost the shot of Zam temporarily reverting to her alien form, as I lost the entire changling element
-as an aside, I added in the original jabba's palace song 'lapti nek' into the night club, it fits very nciely


As I said these changes have been met with mixed reaction by many as this is a popular scene in the movie, but I think it makes it just that much faster and more intense to quote Lucas, and leaves you a bit more breathless.

 

I agree that Obi-wan says "my young padawan" far too much, why can't he just call him Anakin?

I think the line actually was "my very young apprentice."

My assumption was he said that so Anakin would realize he is the apprentice, while Obi-Wan is the master. Remember how Obi-Wan says later on how Anakin is arrogant? It shows somewhat during the chase. I think Obi-Wan was just keeping Anakin on his toes.

 

I think the editing in this movie was great. There were a lot of good intellectual cuts. For example, when anakin goes to find his mother, he drops down and they show the massifs and it cuts back to anakin, that edit shows anakin's rage and anger. Another great one is when jango says "pack your things we're leaving you see his face then it cuts to naboo. That face of evil is foreshadowing whats goin to happen with their relationship, the fireplace scene. Also, the cut where it shows all the boy clones wearing a blue and it cuts to red which is actually the shirt of the bigger clones. Its specific why they didnt show there faces first. They go to red because kids symbolizie the future, then when it cuts to red it shows that these kids are going to grow up and be a danger. There are some great cuts.

 

Thanks D_A for posting the picture. (even if I look constipated in it)

thats my cheezy acting for ya, I wish ther ewas a 'wheelbarrowguy' action figure, but I can go to my grave content that I am Magnetos motivation

 

And Magneto is played by Ian McKellen, who plays Gandalf in the LOTR films, which possibly makes Rebel Scumb here responsible for the box-office take of Jackson's franchise, whose latest offering has out-grossed AOTC, thus making RS the basher to rule them all. RS, it is your destiny!



...that said, I still think Minority Report was a good film though. You're not all powerful Scumby.

 

LOL LOL LOL

 

"My assumption was he said that so Anakin would realize he is the apprentice, while Obi-Wan is the master. Remember how Obi-Wan says later on how Anakin is arrogant? It shows somewhat during the chase. I think Obi-Wan was just keeping Anakin on his toes"

It just made obi-wan look like a jerk IMHO. I'm having trouble reonciling the OT obi witht he PT Obi, I suppose ep3 could fix that, but as it is now I can't really connect one character to the other.


No one seems that interested in discussing the chase, which scen do you guys want to analyze next?

 

If anything, Anakin was being a jerk throughout the movie. Obi-Wan was just keeping his own.

Well, I'd like to discuss the confrontation between Obi-Wan and Jango in the apartment. The editting keeps it intense IMO.

 

I think the second half of this scene, after boba shuts the closet works perfectly, but for some reason in the first half I always feel like Obi-wan and Jango are coming on to each other, I don't know if its the acting or the quick cuts, I think its a bit of both but its mostly Ewan's expression where he looks like he's trying not to laugh.

Howevfer the second half works just as it should, there's heavy implication in what Jango is saying, and Obi-wan is trying to hide his surprise at some of the info Jango is throwing him, the cuts work nicely in this spot.

 

@Rebel Scumb

Coruscant Chase edits:

-When Obi-wanlands in the yellow speeder he says "what took you so long? and Ankin replies "Oh you know master, I couldn't find a speeder I really liked" then Obi-wan says "there he is!" and I cut to the next shot, losing all the subsequent dialogue

Good choice, superfluous dialouge; but how did you handle the score !

Personally I think the Bar Scene worked very well without music but I´d like to see your "Lapti Nek" version nevertheless !

The Obi-Wan vs. Jango Fett confrontation is cut well except for the abrupt (=chopped) start
(not enough build up, Obi-Wan should have detected Jango by e.g. watching a security monitor)

I really dig the cutting from Anakin´s and Padme´s arrival on Tatooine till the Droid Factory sequence.
Not just, but also BECAUSE of the wonderful score which connects these sequences.

There are just two exceptions:

1.)
There are too few (just 4) shots during the Duel of the Fates part.
(Anakin´s POV; Anakin on swoop-bike; wide shot of rock formations; Jawa sandcrawler)
The third shot is really uninspired and this scene could have been handled better (more dynamic) IMHO.
The images are fine but the music deserved even more.

2.)
Rebel Scumb
Please tell me, if you did cut Shmi´s "You look so handsome" line as well.

This is SO OUT OF PLACE, that it hurts.
It almost ruins this (otherwise well-done) scene.

It would have been much more powerful if she just would fondle his cheek and look proudly (but weakend) at him without saying a word, instead of blurring out this atrocious (and over the top delivered) line.