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The Editting discussion

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by Rebel Scumb, Feb 19, 2003.

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  1. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    The one scene that I feel absolutely, unequivocally should have been included in the final cut of the film was the "Lost Twenty" scene, which more fully fleshed out Count Dooku's character and backstory far earlier in the film than we have now. It would've given events a bit more propulsion, and ultimately would have amounted to no more than around a minute-and-a-half of screentime, tops, even with some judicious dialogue editing:

    INT. JEDI TEMPLE, ARCHIVES LIBRARY - DAY

    A bronze bust of Count Dooku stands among a line of other busts of Jedi in the Archive Room. OBI-WAN stands in front it, studying the striking features of the chiseled face.

    On the walls, lighted computer panels seem to stretch into infinity. Farther along the room in the background, FIVE JEDI are seated at tables, studying archival material.

    After OBI-WAN studies the bust for a few moments before MADAME JOCASTA NU, the Jedi Archivist, is standing next to him. She is an elderly, frail-looking human Jedi. Tough as old boots and smart as a whip.

    JOCASTA NU
    Did you call for assistance?

    OBI-WAN
    (distracted in thought)
    Yes...yes, I did...

    JOCASTA NU
    He has a powerful face, doesn't he?
    He was one of the most brilliant Jedi
    I have had the privilege of knowing.

    OBI-WAN
    I never understood why he quit. Only twenty Jedi have ever left the Order.

    JOCASTA NU
    (sighs)
    The Lost Twenty...and Count Dooku was the most recent and the most painful. No one likes to talk about it. His leaving was a great loss to the Order.

    OBI-WAN
    What happened?

    JOCASTA NU
    Well, Count Dooku was always a bit out of step with the decisions of the Council...much like your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

    OBI-WAN
    (surprised)
    Really?

    JOCASTA NU
    Oh, yes. They were alike in many ways. Very individual thinkers...idealists...

    JOCASTA NU stares at the bust.

    [image=http://www.kensforce.com/dookubust.jpg]

    JOCASTA NU
    (continuing)
    He was always striving to become a more powerful Jedi. He wanted to be the best. With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. His knowledge of the Force was...unique. In the end, I think he left because he lost faith in the Republic. He believed that politics were corrupt, and he felt the Jedi betrayed themselves by serving the politicians. He always had very high expectations of government. He disappeared for nine or ten years, then he just showed up recently as the head of the separatist movement.

    OBI-WAN
    It's very interesting. I'm still not sure I completely understand.

    JOCASTA NU
    Well, I'm sure you didn't call me over here for a history lesson. Are you having a problem, Master Kenobi?

    OBI-WAN
    Yes, I'm trying to find a planet system called Kamino. It doesn't seem to show upon any of the archive charts.

    JOCASTA NU
    Kamino? It's not a system I'm familiar with...let me see...
     
  2. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    >> OBI-WAN
    It's very interesting. I'm still not sure I completely understand. <<

    Weird line though- what did he not understand, I wonder? That's about as detailed an explanation as one could hope for [face_batting]

    Though, I suppose we could just chalk it up under the same category as "What's wrong, Annie?" ;;D
     
  3. a. block

    a. block Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 1999
    I thought that part at the Jedi library was cut because it was so obviously exposition. Why would 20 Jedi that left the order be honored with busts in their impressive library? Just seems like a stretch-even for a piece of fiction.
     
  4. Oryx-I

    Oryx-I Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 2, 2000
    I don't think the busts are of the lost twenty. These are just great jedi if I'm correct.
    Wasn't there a mention in a latter version of the script of the master/apprentice relation between Dooku and Qui-Gonn in this scene ?
     
  5. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    If it had been available to me I definitly would've included this scene, even though I think its very very poorly written it does what needed to be done, set up dooku's character in Act 1.

    Unfortunately I cut the library scene, the youngling scene and the entire concept of kaminio being erased so some major revision on my part would have to be done to fit this in.

    Again, a scene that is important, even if the dialogue is terrible.

    "I never quite understood why he quit"

    something about the word quit doesn't jive. Dooku should've been expelled.
     
  6. Leto II

    Leto II Jedi Padawan star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2000
    Well, I don't know if I'd go quite so far as to call the dialogue "poorly-written" (it's sure sorta got that "Jedi-stilted" quality, though ;)), but it is certainly quite adequate, given the situation, and the need to convey character information about a key villain in the saga.

    (And I think he actually quit of his own volition before he ever perped anything of a "dark" nature; it was due to his anger over his former student Qui-Gon's death and the handcuffing of the Jedi Order by the corrupt Senate in the Naboo crisis that done the deed, makin' him walk.)
     
  7. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    Its just the use of the word 'quit' it makes the jedi order seem like a grocerys tore where you can jsut get fed up and walk.

    I still hold that the scene is poorly written, but as I said it does a nessesary job, however I thinkt he dialogue is way too expositional, it doesn't feel natural,a nd Obi-wan's "I don't understand" line just doesn't jive.
     
  8. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
  9. Clonetrooper1000

    Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2003
    A few points.

    1. The overall technical job done by Ben Burtt was extremely competent throughout. Not to say there were a minor couple of hitches in timing. ESB likewise has a few of these.

    2. In terms of George leaving scenes out: I would say that it would have been longer if it were not for the fact it was running so long anyway. I am not dissapointed with the film at all but there were a couple of scenes I would have left in, particularly the Dooku conversation.
     
  10. DARTH_CHINA

    DARTH_CHINA Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2001
    The main editing problem was the music editing. The music should have been the way John Williams' wrote it.

    The unnecessary edits are very bad & clumsy:
    - awful edit in the meadow picnic
    - afwul edit in the arena: John composed a wonderful march, matching the imperial march, IMO and Burtt just threw it away in favour of sound effects only (that isn't professional at all. in AOTC soundeffects are >>>>>>> than the music. Burtt treated his own stuff very well and JW's stuff as ****)
    - afwul droid factory edits, do I have to say more??

    The editing wasn't bad, but the music editing was horrible. That should be restored in a re-edit.

    As for including deleted scenes, I'd only include the Mace/Obi-Wan chat. But I'd edit it a little bit.

    Why would I put back that scene?
    - it expanded on "who erased those files"
    - it expanded on the disturbance in the forse that makes it difficult to see things happen
    - it expanded on Anakin's feelings towards Padme
    - it explained where the starfighters came from
    - it explained where the hyperspace rings came from
    - and above all: that scene (even if it was unfinished) was very beautiful.

    So, where would I edit the scene?
    I would cut the dialogue from "I am concerned for my padawam" to "I fear Anakin will not be able to protect the senator", because it's the same in the Yoda/Mace/Obi-Wan chat. I've done it once (editing a *.mov file of the scene) and it really works. The reductant dialogue happened when Obi-Wan & Windu stood still and then, they continued walking towards the starfighter. But when you cut these lines, it's just as they never stood still and that they immediately walk towards the starfighter.

    It's such an easy edit, but a really good one, IMO.
     
  11. yodaschum

    yodaschum Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2002
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember they cleaned up alot of the major editing mistakes for the DVD. I vividly remember the editing in the saber duel being foul.

     
  12. The_Anakin_Wannabe

    The_Anakin_Wannabe Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2003
    The editing was just as bad on the DVD as it was in the movie. They cut a frame or two of Anakin getting his arm getting chopped off. It doesn't look like he holds his arm out aslong. And they also added in a 'uh huh' from Padme after she falls out of the Gunship on Geonosis, replacing the cheery "YES!" she says after falling a fair distance.
     
  13. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    which kinda puts to rest the whole thing about Lucas not listening to what fans say I suppose.


    "The overall technical job done by Ben Burtt was extremely competent throughout. Not to say there were a minor couple of hitches in timing. ESB likewise has a few of these."

    What bad edits are there in ESB?
     
  14. yodaschum

    yodaschum Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2002
    I have to bring this up again. The editing I REALLY dislike is this. Obi-Wan says goodbye to the kaminoans, he contacts the jedi and is instructed to stay and capture fett. Then we see Anakin in bed having a nightmare. its then morning, and tells he tells padme about his mother and they agree to go see her. SUDDENLY, we cut back to Obi-Wan who's igniting his lightsaber and being attacked by Jango Fett. This doesnt seem right to me. If we've just seen a whole night pass and part of a morning, then what was Obi-Wan doing in-between that time?

    Yeah, I would also like to know what bad edits there are in ESB.




     
  15. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    very good point Yodaschum
     
  16. JediHPDrummer

    JediHPDrummer Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2002
    I have to bring this up again. The editing I REALLY dislike is this. Obi-Wan says goodbye to the kaminoans, he contacts the jedi and is instructed to stay and capture fett. Then we see Anakin in bed having a nightmare. its then morning, and tells he tells padme about his mother and they agree to go see her. SUDDENLY, we cut back to Obi-Wan who's igniting his lightsaber and being attacked by Jango Fett. This doesnt seem right to me. If we've just seen a whole night pass and part of a morning, then what was Obi-Wan doing in-between that time?

    Ok yodaschum, first of all, EVERY PLANET has different timing. Ok, first the cut from yoda to anakin having a nightmare is very underated. The Jedi are talking about how their force is being diminished and then it cuts to anakin havign a nightmare. It's saying that the jedi are in a nightmare, their force is being diminshed, the darkside is clouding over.
    Two, when it cuts to anakin to dawn and back to obi wan in the rain. IT's a beautiful cut because obi wan and anakin are almost in the same place. They both are trying to find someone. and when it cuts to the rain, it almost symbolizes what anakin is feeling. He's in this paradise in naboo, but he's feeling dark, stormy and rainy(water motif) inside. And the whole time thing, again they are in different planets and i think you are nit picking just a little bit. These were beautiful cuts IMHO.
     
  17. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    I think you're reading waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much into that stuff. You can extrapolate all sorts of meanings behind things, heck one could come up with deep meanings for why the stormtrooper hit his head in ANH

    "Ok, first the cut from yoda to anakin having a nightmare is very underated. The Jedi are talking about how their force is being diminished and then it cuts to anakin havign a nightmare. It's saying that the jedi are in a nightmare, their force is being diminshed, the darkside is clouding over."

    The nightmare scene should be cut altogether due to its extremely poor execution. I've never heard so much laughter at a movie for something that is not intended to be funny, it seems like Anakin do things I can't mention on a G-rated message forum.
     
  18. JediHPDrummer

    JediHPDrummer Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 23, 2002
    I'm not reading way on this stuff dude. Their called intellectual cuts. You have to ask yourself WHY did lucas cut there. Because it was a form cut, yoda's shape and anakin's shape were almost indentical. Believe me, if you take a film class, you will be astonished of how much YOU READ INTO MOVIES.

    IT was laughed at because most people don't understand movies.

    And Please DONT BE IGNORANT about a stormtrooper bopping his head cause thats just plain ignorance. You dont know what your talking about
     
  19. Clonetrooper1000

    Clonetrooper1000 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Rebel Scumb: "What bad edits are there in ESB?"

    One example would be the opening shots of the Hoth wasteland. Timing is bad and it jars slightly. Enough to make Eisenstein turn in his grave! ;)

    Anyway, there were not many instances like this. Perhaps a couple more. Not enough to taint the only masterwork of the saga.
     
  20. Obese_Kaminoan

    Obese_Kaminoan Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Off the top of my head, I can recall three moments that I greatly disliked in the editing:

    1. Mace's reaction shot after killing Jango.

    (I think there are reaction shots of Dooku and/or Boba in the mix as well.) Mace's shot just seems very clumsy, and even though the use of a Mace reaction shot appearance makes perfect sense, it somehow feels out of sync with things. I think this is mostly a matter of the (IMHO) slightly wooden timing/acting on Sam L. Jackson's part as much as the length/cut of the shot itself. It's a kind of minor nitpick (and mostly I love SLJ's Mace) but I think this shot could have been safely left on the cutting room floor.

    2. Cutting between C3PO's "...had the most peculiar [or was it 'strangest'?] dream" in the aftermath of the arena and the shot of Boba picking up Jango's helmet.

    I find the droids' "humour" particularly excrutiating throughout AOTC, but cutting directly from one of their "farce" shots to a "pathos" one (Boba's grief) is really, really horrible.

    3. A music composition/editing point: When Padme breaks off the kiss on the balcony the soaring love theme suddenly cuts off like the stylus being lifted off an old record.

    I half-imagine the "rrrrrrrrrrrrrppp" sound that accompanies such a thing IRL. It's a horrible, jarring moment and so amateur it's *almost* funny, but in a sad way it's an appropriate enough conclusion to an embarrasingly constructed/written scene.

     
  21. Lukecash

    Lukecash Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 6, 2001
    Obese_Kamonian

    2. Cutting between C3PO's "...had the most peculiar [or was it 'strangest'?] dream" in the aftermath of the arena and the shot of Boba picking up Jango's helmet.
    I find the droids' "humour" particularly excrutiating throughout AOTC, but cutting directly from one of their "farce" shots to a "pathos" one (Boba's grief) is really, really horrible.


    It served two purposes...it wrapped up the droids part in the adventure...thus it was needed.

    It also gave a stark contrast between the Boba Fetts grim handling of his fathers helmet. It was almost saying to the audience.."There are some dark consequences to the joy you just felt."

    3. A music composition/editing point: When Padme breaks off the kiss on the balcony the soaring love theme suddenly cuts off like the stylus being lifted off an old record.


    I think it was intentionally funny-and musically it tweeked the tradition of musical place in operatic history.

    BUT if I am not mistaken, the musica doesn't abbruptly end, but builds up then goes very soft. It was to mirror the moment very closely.

    Might have to watch the scene again.
     
  22. Obese_Kaminoan

    Obese_Kaminoan Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Good points Lukecash;

    It also gave a stark contrast between the Boba Fetts grim handling of his fathers helmet. It was almost saying to the audience.."There are some dark consequences to the joy you just felt."

    I understand the intention. Sharp juxtaposition of farce and pathos can heighten the emotional reach of both (cf. say, oh, any Shakespeare play). But when the farce isn't actually funny, the process defeats itself. The droid escapades did indeed need wrapping up, but putting that shot *immediately* before Boba was a bad, bad, bad decision - imho, naturally. ;)

    if I am not mistaken, the musica doesn't abbruptly end, but builds up then goes very soft.

    If I'm remembering correctly, it cuts right to an extremely quiet and different musical phrase (which is *so* quiet and indistinct it might as well have been silence), and because the musical cut occurs mid-phrase, the effect seems really cheap, to my ears. (NB: I'm only thinking of the actual moment Padme breaks off, not any stuff that follows on further for what remains of the scene.)
     
  23. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 30, 2000

    The nightmare scene was mentioned and described in negative terms.

    I saw AOTC in a theatre so many times
    I lost count. At least 25 or 30 times,
    I would guess.

    Never heard anyone laughing during
    the nightmare scene. Saw it with big crowds, medium crowds and near empty
    theatres. saw it in regular theatres
    and saw it 3 times in IMAX.

    Never even heard a giggle.

    For me, the scene worked just fine,
    including the editing.
     
  24. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "I'm not reading way on this stuff dude. Their called intellectual cuts. You have to ask yourself WHY did lucas cut there. Because it was a form cut, yoda's shape and anakin's shape were almost indentical. Believe me, if you take a film class, you will be astonished of how much YOU READ INTO MOVIES.

    IT was laughed at because most people don't understand movies.

    And Please DONT BE IGNORANT about a stormtrooper bopping his head cause thats just plain ignorance. You dont know what your talking about"


    I've taken more then a few film courses.

    "One example would be the opening shots of the Hoth wasteland. Timing is bad and it jars slightly. Enough to make Eisenstein turn in his grave!"

    Hmmm, I'll have to check that out, I'll get back to you on it.

    "A music composition/editing point: When Padme breaks off the kiss on the balcony the soaring love theme suddenly cuts off like the stylus being lifted off an old record.

    I half-imagine the "rrrrrrrrrrrrrppp" sound that accompanies such a thing"


    I know what you mean, that always makes me laugh.

    "For me, the scene worked just fine,
    including the editing."


    Wellt here's only one cut in the scene so the editting is not my problem with it, other then I jsut htink it should of been cut altogether. The movie works fine without it and needs to shed some running time.
     
  25. yodaschum

    yodaschum Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 9, 2002
    Ok yodaschum, first of all, EVERY PLANET has different timing.

    Aren't we getting into the realms of "STAR TREK" here?
     
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