ST The Effect Of The Sequel Trilogy On Star Wars

That would be a legitimate point if Rey and Luke were the same characters or shared the same skill set in TFA/ANH. In TFA, Rey proved to already be far more capable of surviving and fending for herself than Luke was in ANH. This makes sense, considering she's been living on her own on a junk dealer-filled desert planet since she was about 5 or 6 years old. She's no novice to fighting and/or life threatening situations.

 

If it is an issue, it is bound to bother people. That's why it's an issue. The question is, why do people taking issue with it bother you? You accept it and others don't.

Even if you want to completely make up Rey the orphan training with a weapon that she never is seen with, that doesn't explain the untrained Force use. It also doesn't explain how a self taught swordsman (assuming you think she used a sword) could beat the PG who have trained to be the elite guard of the supreme leader.

Really? Luke was shown blasting stormtroopers. Seems pretty capable of surviving to me.

Was she really living on her own since she was 5 or 6? Wasn't she sold for liquor money? That implies that she was sold to someone.

 

I don't really see how someone who is an expert with a staff wouldn't at least be competent with a lightsaber?

How did he learn to use a blaster? Surely using a rifle like he had isn't applicable?

 

By your own established logic, Luke shooting stormtroopers is the pay off that would need to have been established, not the justification,
You’re actually saying “of course Luke can shoot stormtroopers - I mean, he can shoot stormtroopers! What more evidence do you want?”

 

Yeah, Unkar Plutt definitely seems like the type of guardian to feed, take care of, and provide shelter to Rey.

 

Luke was shown with a rifle on Tatooine. Ergo he can shoot a rifle. Shooting stormtroopers is a logical conclusion to that.

The technique for using a staff is completely different from the technique for using a sword.

Shooting a rifle and shooting a blaster are similar techniques.

He bought her didn't he? Doubt he would throw his investment out into the desert to fend for herself.

 

Let’s just establish something.

The gap, as you see it, is this:

“we see Rey using a staff. We don’t see her using a sword. How can she swordfight”

The counterpoint to that is basically

“I guess she probably must have used a sword at some point”

That’s it, there’s literally no other neccesary explanation, and kids and adults alike don’t have a problem with it if they liked the film. There’s not a single person who genuinely really likes TFA who is like “the only thing is, she uses a staff, so I just don’t get how she can use a lightsaber?”

So my question is, what do you expect people to make of your point? Because your point doesn’t aid understanding, it hinders it. You’re literally trying to make the film less understandable than it is. Why?

 

There are plenty of people who saw TFA and liked it who still asked the question of how can Rey beat Kylo in a lightsaber duel and use the Force untrained.

In relation to this thread topic, it is a deal breaker. These movies change the fact that in the previous 6 movies you had to be trained to use a lightsaber and the Force. Now you don't. Even GG said he was trained by CD.

Rey doesn't need training in either and performs at master level in 4 days.

I'll respectfully disagree. I've trained with a sword (katana) but not with a staff. I have practiced with a staff. The stance, motion, attack angles, focus, and muscles used are different between the forms.

But I digress and will move on. Just keep in mind that just because something isn't an issue for some doesn't mean that it isn't an issue.

 

If only she act like she was wielding a staff with that lightsaber...

Wait...

 

Goalposts deftly moved from “could she have fought with a sword” to the reliable fall-back option “how could she beat Kylo Ren”.
Which then immediately gets the response “he was badly injured”, which inevitably is glossed over, and we still don’t get a genuine answer to “staying on the specific issue of melee weapon competence, why, if you really struggle with the idea that staff fighting can translate to saber fighting, can’t you just assume that she used a sword before”

For me, the other point this misses is that the reason Rey is shown using a staff is likely to be partly to avoid it being too obvious/a foregone conclusion that she was the “Jedi”

I don’t understand why this is still a debate. Are people who couldn’t get past that REALLY still ranting about it?

 

It looks like he bought her to basically turn her into a slave for him. I'm sure someone who has read Rey's Survival Guide (there is literally a book about this character titled REY'S SURVIVAL GUIDE) or Rey's Story could comment on how Rey was (or more accurately, wasn't) brought up by Unkar. She's been surviving on her own. Why that's so hard for you to accept, I really don't know. What she's been through, at 19, is far rougher than anything Luke could have imagined in ANH.

 

Aah, I see. @T-R is arguing from the “I know a little bit about this, so I can debunk it.

Well guess what. An expert at rifle shooting could debunk the idea that it translates easily to a pistol.
An expert in survival could debunk how Finn survives in the desert.
An expert in psychology could debunk that Padme would fall for Anakin based on his behaviour.

If you’re not meeting Star Wars half way, you’re not watching it right

 

"Master of The Knights of Ren" is a title he gave himself just like he gave himself that name. He isn't a master of anything. He's a kid playing dress-up.

Yoda never once taught Luke how to fight or use a light saber. He did nothing more than coach him to let go and believe.

 

Here's the problem. Rey's survival guide was written to tie into TFA where JJ clearly had her abandoned and waiting for her parents to come back. Makes sense that she was on her own.

The problem comes when Rian ignores what JJ did in favor of her being sold. Her being sold implies a slave. No slave owner in a GFFA that we've seen lets their slave roam around freely and fend for themselves. Poor way to handle your investment. Rian having Rey sold invalidates the survival guide, just like previous movies invalidated EU when it contradicted.

I never claimed to be an expert.

There is a difference between rifle and pistol. Lucky for Luke, a stormtrooper blaster is a rifle

except he did:

 

Dearie me.


Whatever. Yet another discussion derailed by people complaining about EVERYTHING

 

Two years in and the point “Kylo Ren took a massive blaster bolt to the midriff that was bleeding out” still has to be regularly made.

 

No it doesn't. The only thing Rey mentions about her past and how she got to Jakku in Rey's Survival Guide is this:

"Every night I make a scratch on the wall, marking another day I've survived here on Jakku. Sometimes I think of each mark as a victory-another day where I beat the Blobfish, the heat, and my fellow scavengers. Other times I think of each mark as bringing me closer to the moment when my people return. Because that will happen one day. I can't tell you when or how, but I know it will-I can feel it. It's a mistake that I wound up here on Jakku, and I know there are people out there who are trying to fix that mistake. When they do, they'll find me and take me to where I belong. Until that happens, though, I wait."

That's so incredibly vague that it could literally fit with any background story of how Rey got abandoned on Jakku. And the underlined bit actually pretty perfectly jives with one of Rey's main character flaws: that she's waiting for her parents and other people to take her to where she belongs and make her who she belongs, instead of doing that herself. You know, in the same way that she thinks Luke Skywalker will come and save her friends and save the galaxy, but really, she needs to rise up and be the hero that the galaxy needs?

Anyways, this has gotten completely off topic from the title of the thread.

@CEB Lol, they even make a mention of it in TLJ with the 'How's your wound?' line.

 

They gave us 3 things to get on board or roll with it or jump off. It seems some of you jumped off. Here's what they gave us:

The Force has awakened. Snoke felt it. This implies an extraordinary awakening.
I knew that as my apprentice grew stronger his counter in the Light would rise, too, he says.
Rey experienced Kylo Ren's thoughts and possibly gained insights into his Force knowledge or training. Why wouldn't a Master do this to an Apprentice before? Because they want to control them more.
Rey fought much of her life.
Rey seems to enjoy fighting more than Luke does.
Kylo Ren didn't want to hurt her. He clearly likes her. He was wounded. He was asked to bring her in for Snoke. He has her back up against a cliff and easily could have pushed her off. He doesn't. He shows her mercy. She takes advantage of that mercy and his injury and his state of mind. Let's not pretend this was ROTS Anakin vs Obi-Wan again. I posted the video again earlier in this thread. Watch it. Kylo Ren dominates much of the fight and lets up.
Luke may not have not been a good learner with a saber despite having tons of Force potential. His passion was flying.
Rey showed self training desire on Ahch-To. For how many hours was she out there practicing with the saber? We don't know. Has she ever practiced with a stick in her lead up to using her staff? We don't know. Maybe she did and we can imagine that.
Rey struggles in training and goes straight to the Dark Side when Luke teaches her how to better connect with more of the Force.
Rey struggles in training and cuts through the rock by mistake when practicing.
Rey struggles with the idea of becoming the hero she wants and helps Ben Solo become Supreme Leader.
Rey is stabbed in the arm and nearly killed multiple times versus the Praetorian Guards.

I add all of that up and it works well enough for me.

The honest truth, IMO, is that they know that an entire generation of kids has grown up around other blockbusters and MCU content and that building up to Jedi mind tricks and Force pulls over multiple films just isn't going to seem all that exciting. It was 20-40 years ago when superhero films were in short supply and effects were terrible beyond Star Wars. It's just not going to get people talking as much in 2018 and beyond. They know they can't reboot Star Wars entirely with new accelerated powers so they're just building in this awakening concept to better explain it.

At a certain point it's like abandoning the old EU. They know some won't like it and they're prepared to lose those fans if they are going to dig in and demand that Force power development be exactly the same as films made decades prior. So long as there's some advancement and progression and Masters like Snoke and Luke at higher levels... it works for me. I get that some people value slow progression and Dance movie tropes like characters who struggle with a certain move in training and later need to pull that move off to win but I'm tired of that kind of stuff. I saw Karate Kid. I've watched Rocky and Creed. I'm fine with characters starting higher so long as they set it up a little and they have.

 

So we can't reference official canon that's in the animated series, but we can use scenes that hit the cutting room floor and never made it to the screen? Interesting.

 

This is ironic seeing as how lightsaber blade weight has been well established before the ST was even considered.

Yes. Rewatching the scene as the camera keeps panning to Kylo's dripping blood, it's clear they are trying to make that the main excuse. Still, swordfighting is such a highly technical skill that the fact he was able to fight SO long for just fine and STILL end up losing to a rookie, his nuts.

 

But George said they were 'heavy' when making the OT...

 

MOD EDIT: Removed personal attack

 

Rebels explains the way lightsabers feel, interact, and function better than anything else that we have in canon in Trials of the Darksaber. The more connected that you are with the crystal (and the force), the lighter the blade will feel to the user. Such a great episode. This jives well with the way Rey handles the lightsaber in the moments after she taps into the force.