ST The Effect Of The Sequel Trilogy On Star Wars

Let's go the whole mile then.

 

This is not George Lucas we are dealing with. Executive Producer is merely the head guy who is in charge of the financial and managerial aspects of making of a movie or broadcast or for staging a play, opera, etc. They are not in charge of the script or the actual production itself. That belongs to the director and scriptwriter. Hence why directors get top billing.

Lucas is a unique Executive Producer in that he was heavily involved with the core production and in some ways, an unofficial director during TESB and ROTJ.

 

Sidious force-choked Dooku halfway across the galaxy in TCW didn't he?

 

He chose to give Johnson creative freedom, because he liked the script that was pitched to him.

QRB wondered why JJ wasn't executive producer. I showed that in fact he was. Now you guys want to try and make a case that he really wasn't.

Like I said, dance around that however your little heart desires.

 

Yeah... this is the most concrete explanation of how lightsabers function in regards to their user that we've ever gotten, actually. Just because it's on a show that you, personally, don't watch, doesn't make it any less concrete.





Rebels has its share of flaws, but sometimes it introduces some real gems to canon and lore, and this is one of them. And as stated before, it works perfectly with Rey's fight with Kylo in TFA. She starts the fight scared, unfocused, and doesn't acknowledge the force within her. As a result, the blade is heavy, and she has a hard time swinging it other than blocking Kylo's attacks. She takes her moment to focus on the force within her, and that energy resonates with the crystal and, in turn, makes the blade lighter. Suddenly her thoughts and instincts are connected with the blade, and she's able to handle the lightsaber with proficiency and speed.

 

I hold back because of what I described in the rest of my earlier post, because many recent posts in this thread feel like a flashback to two years ago. I've seen and engaged with similar contention in other fanbases, and by now I don't see the point.

Incidentally, I've gained this view largely as an effect of recent examples, namely Luke in TLJ and Obi-Wan in the Rebels episode "Twin Suns".

 

I'm just saying that Executive Producer is not exactly the same as being the creative head like Lucas. By definition, Executive Producer is in charge of the money and management of the whole movie, not the actual script and filming. Ben Affleck was Executive Producer for Justice League, yet I don't recall him doing anything to influence Zach Snyder.

And I don't recall JJ Abrams doing that either. No trying to influence Rian Johnson with his ideas and instead go accepting whatever Rian Johnson has. I attribute that to the fact that JJ Abrams has no vision beyond Episode VII. He made a mystery box with no answers. So he better make up for his lack of answering in Episode IX.

 

Well he's constantly being told how he isn't even close to being Vader, despite his potential.

 

@KembaSkywalker I watched it. Nowhere in the video did they say the blade has weight. She just said "it's heavier than I thought." The hilt is probably heavy. Not bad dialogue for a cartoon though.

Then you're in the wrong place friend. If you're on here and not enjoying the debate, perhaps this isn't the thread for you. Don't let negative energy into your life.

 

So in Rey's case great force potential and raw power = greater feats than we have seen from any of our previous heroes at this stage in their training/progression. But in Kylo's case great force potential + years of training + raw power = ehhhh he's impressive when the story needs it but a weakling and unstable when the story needs it as well.

And THATS what we are supposed to accept as a great story??

Rey is being painted as stronger than heroes from previous trilogies but the villain who is supposed to be a threat to her isn't even on the level of previous villains?? How are we supposed to buy in to the fact that this is supposed to be a challenge for her?

So Luke is able to defeat vader BUT Kylo scares him so much while at the same time not any where near Vader's level???? The response I get is that Kylo has the POTENTIAL to be Vader but isn't there 6 years before TLJ when he destroys the jedi temple and STILL not there during the time of TFA and TLJ.......So Luke could have easily defeated him? The response I get to that is "well maybe luke didn't want to kill him! And was scared he'd have to deal a final blow"

And my question to that is if Luke could easily defeat kylo couldn't he have disarmed him (literally and figuratively) like vader did him and imprison him??? If the options are defeat kylo without killing him and imprison or have him ravage the galaxy potentially killing millions I am almost certain that no ones perception of Luke is that he would choose the latter.

 

Not quite sure what you mean as clearly JJ and RJ couldn't even get together on the direct crossover Luke reveal (or even what he should be wearing) between VII and VIII or even Kylo Ren's scar! They did agree that R2 should go on the Falcon instead of BB-8 though.

There are all kinds of variations but Lucas was the film-maker, the story writer, the character creator, the script writer the co-director on TESB and ROTJ for all intents and purposes.

Hal Wallis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_B._Wallis was the kind of exec prod that totally oversaw his movies so while he didn't write the scripts or direct the movies he controlled and oversaw everything so Casablanca was his film because he said what was what. Lucas is like that except that he was also an actual writer-director film-maker.

 

Watched those videos and do remember that scene, not sure that it shows that the Rey vs. Kylo is anywhere near the same as Sabine. Quite the opposite actually, Sabine is actually receiving training, quite unlike Rey. Rey just feels it, so off-putting. The friggin cartoon shows a better example of how to maybe do an emotional training scene.
Even Sylvester Stallone could change it up, even though he was always tied to the training montage. Go to Russia, run to top of mountain, lift rocks and cut some wood is so much better than not doing anything.
That scene also shows how emotional it is for Sabine, this ST we are simply not shown any sort of training, for reasons I will never understand.

 

Sounds like you are mixing lots of different stuff wildly together...

Where exactly is Rey being painted as stronger than the heroes from previous trilogies?
She was shown quickly grasping elements of the force that we never saw someone else use in such a quick time. That isn't anywhere near the same as being stronger than earlier heroes. Just because someone didn't do something, doesn't mean that they weren't capable of doing it. You randomly assign capabilities ("Rey is stronger than X", "Kylo is weaker than Y") with absolutely no proof for any of it. Doing something earlier than other people did it isn't the same as being stronger.

Luke managed to defeat Vader because he tapped into the darkside, and because Vader's heart wasn't into it, as Luke is telling him all the time. This wasn't the Vader of ESB, toying with a kid he wanted to catch, this was a deeply conflicted Vader who couldn't make up his mind.

Nowhere does it say that Luke is scared of Kylo. Luke said that he wasn't scared of the potential back then, and it turned out very very badly, hence him being scared of such a potential now. Luke obviously didn't want to harm Ben, the movie makes that blindingly obvious. He couldn't have, that's the whole point. Then Ben freaks out, brings down the roof on Luke and torches the temple. Where exactly was Luke supposed to capture him? He took a glance into Ben's mind, saw something really terrifying, had a moment of weakness in which he thought about killing Ben to stop it from happening, realized how wrong this was in an instance, but not quickly enough for Ben not to notice. At that point Luke tried to calm the situation but Ben already acted. At no point was there ever any chance to "capture" him. None of this has anything to do with one being stronger than the other either. Being stronger doesn't mean you can prevent anything from happening.

And how exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that Kylo Ren was no threat to Rey?
In their first meeting he easily paralizes her. Then they face of with their minds, in which both get something out of the other (Kylo Ren sees the island and her longing for her parents, Rey sees his fear of not being strong enough to match Vader). When they fight, he is so badly wounded that he shouldn't even be alive (compare him surviving Chewie's shot with what happened to all the stormtroopers who got hit by it), yet he toys with both Finn and her until her tapping into the force, catching him by surprise. The next time they face each other, neither could best the other, leading to the lightsaber breaking in half. The movie makes it clear that Ben growing stronger causes her to do so as well, Snoke states as much. That isn't really something we have seen in Star Wars before, but just because we haven't seen it before doesn't mean that it cannot happen.

The two are a match for each other, and Kylo Ren has more resources supporting him, so yes, he very much is a threat to her. Maybe you didn't realize it, but in the older stories, the bad guys overpowered the good guys. The Emperor and Vader were in charge, the Jedi in hiding, and that didn't change because of how exceptionally skilled Luke was - he clearly was no match for the Emperor - but because Anakin/Vader decided to save his son and kill Palpatine. So even if Rey was stronger than all the heroes from the past (something not supported by the movies) and Kylo Ren was weaker than the old villains, that still would leave room for him being stronger than her or them being equals. That doesn't even take into account that Rey doing something at an early age that Luke didn't do, doesn't mean that she is stronger than Luke became, Anakin was or Yoda would have been in his sleep.

 

This made zero sense. So the audience is supposed to pretend ROTJ and Luke redeeming someone who had ALREADY done terrible things never happened? Another failure of this film.

 

Nope. Why would the audience have to pretend ROTJ never happened? That makes zero sense, and is a completely unreasonable reaction, period. They're supposed to accept that humans make mistakes, and be able to understand the nuanced situation that actually occurred on screen. Luke recognizes his mistake, pretty quickly - let's get technical - maybe after about 1-2 seconds? And he decides against it. Obviously, it's too late, Ben sees the ignited lightsaber, assumes the worst, and Luke can't forgive himself for it.

To come to the conclusion that since Luke faced down the dark side in ROTJ and rejected it, means that he'll never be challenged by the dark side ever again in his life! is absolutely asinine. He faced it again. He rejected it again. He got caught in a terrible misunderstanding. Tragedy ensues.

 

One, Luke kept the saber ignited longer than 1 or 2 seconds (not to mention the time it took him to pull his sabre from his belt, slowly raise it, and ignite it. Two, Luke also lied to Rey about this 1st. What part of Luke in the OT would indicate he'd start lying? He takes visible issues with Kenobi's "certain point of view" reasoning. No way he would outright lie.

 

Oh, my bad, he raises it for 2.5 seconds. You realize the scene is showed in slow motion, right? And if we want to get technical again, Luke doesn't straight up lie to Rey - of course he doesn't mention the incident in his original recount of what happened - but he doesn't say to Rey "I didn't even do anything! He just attacked me out of nowhere!" He just fails to bring up the incident. Regardless, that's beyond the point, he made a mistake (as all humans do) and he can't come to terms with it. Luke Skywalker is not a perfect human being, I'm sorry that Rian Johnson ruined that for you.

 

As being Episode VII and VIII respectively, the ST is a direct sequel to ROTJ. Thus the narrative has to flow smoothly so that people will not be confused about sudden changes in the character. This enables great time skips to occur such as TPM to AOC and ROTS to ANH. The characters felt like they were going into a natural progression of where the last episode left them off. Obi-Wan assures Anakin that he will be a Jedi by the end of TPM and at the beginning of AOC, we see them on the elevator discussing about their misadventure with Gundarks as Master and Padawan. Padme manages to liberate Naboo after the Senate failed to do anything, so it's natural for her to become a Senator herself to correct the corruption. Jar Jar Binks has become accepted to society, so it's not surprising he's engaging in more professional career and being less clumsy (although still naive).

ROTJ left us with an optimistic Luke with a bright future of rebuilding of the Jedi Order. He has faced his greatest challenge and passed with flying colors. His greatest achievement is believing the goodness inside the black heart of Darth Vader. So when TLJ shows Luke in that flashback, it was jarring and quite a dumb way to make Luke Skywalker flawed (it seems more like RJ wants to make Kylo Ren look like a sympathetic child). When I think of a flawed Luke who lost his order, I think of someone who is overconfident that he can redeem anyone from the Dark Side. When I think of Luke flirting with the Dark Side, I think of him seeing his Jedi Order in actual ruins and flying in rage at Kylo Ren for actually succeeding in destroying the Order. These aspects flow naturally from ROTJ Luke. The flashback, however, made Luke appear as an impulsive cold-blooded murderer. A cynic back then, and a cynic now.

No matter what justification is thrown at Luke's actions, I will always remember what RJ said about making Luke ignite his lightsaber over Ben:

Scene before the story. Twists before characters. Landscape without earning it.

 

Couple things.

1.) the true version wasn't in slow motion.
2.) he lied to her initially. He said he went to confront him and he turned on me. He doesn't mention the mind probe or the ignited lightsaber. He lied.
3.) Luke probes Ben for 10 seconds
4.) it is 11 seconds from the time Luke takes the saber from his belt until he ignites it.
5.) another 10 seconds of the ignited blade before Ben wakes up.
6.) another 10 seconds of Ben staring at Luke with an ignited saber BEFORE Ben calls for his saber.

The whole scene was over 40 seconds long. Luke held an ignited saber for 20 seconds. Sorry to ruin your 2.5 second theory, but Rian clearly didn't show it as a brief moment

 

And almost the moment he ignites it and hears the hum of the blade he comes to his senses. You are misrepresenting that. For a fleeting moment of pure instinct he thinks he might end it. And then he doesn’t. Yes the saber remains ignited after he comes to his senses, but he’s looking at the blade in shame for most of that time. He does take the blade off his belt and clench his fist as the darkness in him takes hold though, absolutely. I have zero problem with him sensing Kylo’s thoughts/ future though. The dialogue and horror on Luke’s face as he realises just how far Kylo has fallen is also crucial to the context.

 

Luke was STAUNCH against any idea of killing his own flesh and blood in ROTJ. His "moment of weakness" was being trapped in a kamikaze mission with doom impending for the rebellion while Vader threatened to capture and turn Leia to the dark side.

Now we are supposed to believe that he had that same moment of weakness? Not a THOUGHT, but actually acting to raise his lightsaber to kill a sleeping child?? IT MAKES ZERO SENSE. IT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER. To put it in perspective, Anakin struggled with the choice of killing an unarmed Sith Lord in Dooku, and Mace Windu hesitated too long before striking to kill Palpatine. But Luke is willing (for a second sure) to kill a sleeping child? His own nephew??

Your acting like his "moment of weakness" was thinking about suspending Ben from school He was considering cold-blooded familial murder.

ROTJ Luke WAS the perfect Jedi. And yes, RJ ruined that.

 

I find it interesting that almost the exact point the movie makes in universe is what is being discussed here.

Luke is perceived by the galaxy as being a perfect hero.

We see the reality behind that. He isn't. No one is.

Then by his act at the end the galaxy believes again in the myth even though we, the audience, now know the truth.

Its such a commentary on the way we have to build hero figures be they religious or political or celebrity.

 

Very good point Wolvo.


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He essentially had a dark side jump scare where Ben would do horrible things, and for a few seconds he considers it and then doesn't do it. He doesn't see Ben running over R2 in a speeder. He sees the death and destruction of everyone and everything he cares about.

You are asking Luke to be your idea of him that is beyond human.

 

We saw that reality in ROTJ. He finally cracked and used the dark side when Vader threatened Leia; but when the moment came to cross the line there was no going back from, he pulled himself back and was willing to die rather than turn. He was PERFECTLY IMPERFECT.

You`re taking my words too literally. I didn`t mean he literally was super powerful and had no temptation and everything was rosy.

Not murdering your family is beyond human? My idea of him is purely based on the character we see in ROTJ. What TLJ is trying to tell us is that the Luke Skywalker we see in that film over time became a foolish, violent coward. It's a complete 180. It's like if they bring Boba Fett back in the next film and he's running a daycare (which at this point, is quite possible).