ST The Effect Of The Sequel Trilogy On Star Wars

I don't understand what people think TLJ about who can use the force. The force was never just for established families other than the Skywalkers. There is only one Palpatine, Kenobi etc that can use the force. The force is still linked to random individuals with high midichlorian counts as it anyways has been.

 

Agreed. And it will remain that way because it is storytelling 101. You will always have force-users and "ordinary" people who can`t use the force in Star Wars. And the latter group can reach spiritiual enlightenment until they are blue in the face, they will never be able to pull off force-user tricks.

That has been the same for the PT, the OT and the ST. The only difference with the PT is that more visible force users were running around because the Jedi Order numbered in the thousands. The OT and ST widdled it down to a few but that is a mere difference in numbers, not the basic concept.

 

Not at all. I don't know why this gets overlooked because there is literally no reason for it to be. In TPM the way Anakin is found and identified is from the Will of the Force and suitably mystical. The midi-chlorian count that Qui-Gon gets from the blood test is simply objective confirmation of what Qui-Gon already suspects about Anakin. His count is higher than any lifeform ever. He already knows he's incredibly sensitive to the Force and could be a Jedi with training but he feels there is something more and that he in fact could be the Chosen One of the prophecy. You don't get more mystical than that in Star Wars.

I don't follow as Anakin IS the literal result of the spiritual aspect of the Force itself. He is the Chosen One. It was the Will of the Force.

What is this idea that Jedi had some obsession with midi-chlorians counts? The Jedi used them as a matter of fact tool for identifying Force sensitives in a massive galaxy. The entire point is that beings who were potential Jedi WERE NOT X-Men mutants who suddenly "broke out" with superpowers. No one would ever know that Anakin was Force sensitive because he was using the Force to move objects because he didn't. Belief is easy if kids are wizarding objects around or mind-reading. Not so much if they just seem to have great intuition, mechanical skills and reflexes.

Luke at 19 couldn't lift a thing. After several years he could barely pull the Lightsaber into his hand or lift an X-Wing while stableboy by 19 will clearly be able to move a squadron of X-Wings with ease. No training required.

This aspect is not "back". It was never in Star Wars in the first place. It's a misreading and misinterpretation of the Force by the ST. That is not about Jedi then. It's about super-powered Force users who are akin to mutants in X-Men. The Jedi (X-Men) might find these gifted youngsters and train them but training doesn't help them discover their powers in the first place. It will refine them but they will have the power regardless.

So what the ST is saying is that the Force is only for the very, very special who exhibit power in the first place as opposed to the PT where we learn the Jedi identify those with great potential that could with time and training over years become Jedi. This goes for the Chosen One as well. This idea that the Force is now somehow about "faith and belief again" simply doesn't work. What faith or belief does Rey have? None. She does all these things without them. She doesn't need faith or belief in the Force to do any of the things she does. We see that directly in the movies. She can gain an understanding but that isn't going to effect her having power.

Almost entirely different.

That simply didn't happen in ANH. I could check off an entire list of things but it'd be so long I don't want to make it. Best just to watch the movie again to get the full context.

Besides being factually untrue (as he had a lesson on the Falcon) I don't see how this at all squares with what you talked about earlier about growing in the Force "through wisdom, self discovery and good old fashioned trial and error" which by that point Luke had spent several years doing.

Sorry but what are you referring to? After several years Luke couldn't lift an X-Wing and was nothing to Vader except someone to play with while Rey in 3 days is doing anything and everything she wants with no faith or belief in the Force required. Trial and error is virtually instantaneous.

Again I don't follow. So mysticism about the Force shouldn't be done or should? What some people seem to be saying therefore is that they wish that Anakin simply was fully "Forced up" in TPM and at 9 was taking Maul down after picking up a Lightsaber for the first time?

For one Rey clearly has a MASSIVE midi-chlorian count as does stableboy. Actually they both would have to be higher than Anakin's apparently because unlike him (and all the other Jedi of the PT era and before that) they don't require time and training. It just happens. Their power levels are obvious and what's more techniques are their birthright because again they simply happen. Why bother spending years training anyone when apparently the Force gives them instant downloads of technique they simply use?

When it comes to mystical and spirtual it's a no contest between the Jedi training of old up until and including Kylo Ren while clearly there has been some shift in the Force where this new special class of instant power has happened.

I don't see where this is in the ST outside of Kylo Ren. We see it for Anakin, Luke and Ben but where is it for Rey? For her it's really revealing what she innately knows already. That is her story. It's one about knowing things already. So the question for her is why does she know all this?

 

In what scene exactly?

 

He found out only recently too. He found out 6 years before TLJ.

 

Are people trying to argue that in the PT and OT untrained force users didn't show force powers?

Cos they did

I can kind of understand the argument that Rey is powerful quickly but she is clearly meant to be ridiculously strong with the force.

The stable boy scene is not out of context with the PT or OT

 

Exactly. People who insist on "jedi training" are completely missing what's happening here.

Ask yourself, "how did the very first Jedi come to be"? It had to start somewhere right? Someone figured out that they could tap into this mystical energy and discovered their first power through it. Found others who could do the same and together they learned to harness this power and build and entire belief system and philosophy around it.

So what happens in the absence of the jedi, when their are no more left? Does the force just disappear forever? No of course not. It finds a way to resurface. That's what's happening now. It's awakening in these individuals like Rey to balance out the dark because the last Jedi shut himself off from the force. This is the "new jedi" that Snoke spoke of in TFA and they'll find each other and create and find their own "code" and methods of training the force via trial and error and with a little help from the texts Rey took that she can interpret in different ways than the Jedi of old.

Luke may have been wrong in his assessment of the past Jedi's failures but he was right about one thing - they do not own the force nor are they the gatekeepers that all others must pass through. Yoda believed that as well. People need to let go of this idea that everyone needs traditional "jedi training" (which no one really knows exactly what that consists of anyway) to achieve power in the force.

 

It`s not about being a "Jedi", that`s just the name of one specific insitution of force-users. I`m sure the PT!Jedi missed all kinds of force-sensitive kids who had the potential to become Jedi but lived on planets not controlled by the Republic, like Tatooine. It`s likely hundreds of those kids slipped through the cracks.

Force-sensitive people will always be around, it just won`t be anyone with that ability. It`s still special people. If they call themselves "Jedi" or not or if they ever realize or reach their potential or not. It won`t be everyone.

What doesn`t work for me is insta-upgrade. Just because you are a force-sensitive doesn`t mean you can do every force trick within two days just because. Even people with extraorginary talents in some field need some guidance and training of some kind. For a story to work, there has to be some learning curve involved and setbacks and conflict.

 

Ah, I thought so.

 

And now you're being purposely obtuse and facetious

 

The effect the ST has had on Star Wars is very positive - way better than EP1 & 2 & not far off the OT in terms of feel & look ,

 

When exactly? When did Anakin or Luke "show" Force powers?

The answer is that they didn't.

No one was more ridiculous EVER than Anakin and yet he didn't "show" anything. Nothing that wouldn't be put down to incredible reflexes that are rare and even unique but they don't outright "show."

Yet stableboy is the same age as Anakin and in similar circumstances and he can do something that Anakin couldn't do and use the Force to pull objects towards himself with barely a thought. It's pretty much an unconscious act on his part.

So yes it's completely out of context with no time, training or effort. As ultra powerful in the Force as Anakin was he still couldn't finish a podrace until Qui-Gon gave him something to think about. "Feel, don't think, use your instincts."

I hope people noted that when Anakin lost one of his cables he didn't suddenly use the Force to grab it but a magnetic cable puller. In TPM and ANH Lucas went out of his way to make sure the context of the Force use and how it works. For the ST that matters not at all.

Fine. We understand that as of now in Star Wars for whatever reason the Force is now a power you have or don't. Training is pretty much useless because those that are touched by the Force now are so powerful that no matter what training anyone else might do you will never catch up. On top of that there is clearly no one to train any of these kids so story-wise training is just not going to happen.

The only one that wants to train beings to be keepers of the peace and not soldiers out for selfish gain.

Any others "institutions" don't really exist outside the Jedi and their offshoot of evil the Sith. The point is that it's supposed to be extremely hard to achieve the level of power to be a Jedi Knight.

Exactly but since they didn't get the training required to realize those powers to the degree that we associate with Force Users then it's a non-issue. If Luke hadn't been informed by Obi-Wan and gone down the Jedi path then what would have happened to him?

Nothing of great note. He was a good not great pilot (Wedge and Biggs were comparable). So he would have become better over time but the idea that he would exhibit any real obvious "show" powers simply wasn't going to happen. At 19 he was no 9 year old stableboy nevermind Rey. Literally years after he was introduced to the Force and stableboy would outrank him with Force powers.

Force-sensitive people will always be around, it just won`t be anyone with that ability. It`s still special people. If they call themselves "Jedi" or not or if they ever realize or reach their potential or not. It won`t be everyone.

Yet clearly that is no longer necessary. We'll see what happens but this seems to be a mutants vs normal people situation that they have set up.

 

“No one was more ridiculous EVER than Anakin and yet he didn't "show" anything. Nothing that wouldn't be put down to incredible reflexes that are rare and even unique but they don't outright "show."”

His ability to identify items he couldn’t see on Mace Windu’s screen were “incredible reflexes?”

 

Note this was AFTER he was identified, told he could be a Jedi and being examined by Jedi.

Was Watto using him as a card reader? No.

Context as ever is key.

What are the movies telling us? TLJ and the ST is clearly telling us things are different now. Fine.

Let's acknowledge that things are different and that what was is no longer was is. The question then is why or are they actually thinking that we can't see the difference?

The Force was something very difficult to attain and Jedi training was the best way to go about it. Even Anakin for all his power needed years. Luke was also more powerful than just about anyone else and even on a crash course it took him years and BTW could be do anything vs Sidious? No. He was nothing to Sidious. He could possibly take down a hobbled and conflicted Vader as long as he tapped into the Dark side for quick and easy power to do so.

Luke was years away from being able to do a thing against Sidious.

 

Not sure what the significance is of “AFTER he had been identified”.

He was untrained, and was literally doing a test that measured how well he could use the force to do something that he’d had no training whatsoever of doing.
“Told he could be a Jedi” ah, so now it IS about believing in yourself? Got it.

 

Really? The significance is that no one was testing him or asking him anything. This BTW is after he's been introduced to Qui-Gon and takes "lessons" which very quickly add up to him winning the podrace which never would have happened at that point. Down the line would Anakin intuitively start finishing and even win? Likely.

Yes, a basic test that was usually done with kids years younger. He was 9 while the younglings down the hall were probably half that age.

????

Yes that used to be the case but with the ST that is now questionable and outright we've seen that it doesn't matter much with Rey. She really didn't need to believe in the Force. In fact what is so very odd is that Rey seems to have completely forgotten what not only Maz told her in TFA about the Force but her own experience with it against Kylo Ren.

So what happened? Why the amnesia?

Why did RJ go out of his way to ignore Rey's Force experiences? The disconnect between TFA and TLJ in terms of story and character is puzzling to say the least for Luke, Rey, Ren and Snoke nevermind the rest of the galaxy.

 

I was just worried that some people thought that anybody could use the force. when I mean use the force I mean pushing things and such.

 

Oh, I agree with you. Luke (and any of those unindentified kids) would likely have gone through life without ever even knowing their force potential. Sure, they would have instinctively used it here and there, like for Piloting but they`d never have consciously been able to use it. He`d probably never have levitated objects.

Anakin wouldn`t have ever known he had force potential either IMO.

Even Rey who powered up in no-time didn`t seem like she would ever have known she had the Force if she had continued to live on Jakku.

Broom-boy force-pulls objects like a champ because he somehow just knows he has the force and already has mastery over it. This display of power is unheard of in Star Wars so far and yes, it is closer to X-Men when the powers just break out in kids/teenagers.

 

You still haven't answered your claim that the PT portrayed people being told they cannot use certain powers because their midi-count was too low. It's not being obtuse to call out a completely false statement. It's called being honest.

 

Broom boy was quite weird I will have to say.

 

I'd say it's more about letting go of inhibitions, coming to terms with the world beyond your comfort zone and finding a place of purpose in it.

That doesn't seem like an issue, then. Where is it made clear that that ability requires training?

 

Anakin piloting his pod racer is not quick reflexes, it's because he is seeing things before they happen. They even say in the film its a jedi trait. So Anakin shows a Jedi/force trait without training before he is told a thing by a Jedi

 

Bizarrely the xmen comparison made above works perfectly for the PT anyway.

Yes xmen are born with special powers like those with high midichlorian counts but to best learn how to use their powers in a constructive way the mutants are recruited and attend a school (essentially the PT Jedi model)

 

And Rey bested a hobbled and conflicted Kylo who was in no way trying to harm her and she was able to do absolutely nothing against Snoke.


All we're seeing is a replay of the first Jedi order. In the absence of light side force users, the force is finding a new generation that will have to learn on the job. Of course that dynamic is different from the previous movies because it has to be, but this is not some radical change in how the force works. Like Luke told Rey, the light doesn't die with the Jedi.

Everyone is vastly overstating what Rey has done and vastly overstating how powerful Kylo is. Nobody is a afraid of him. Lor San Tekka in the face of death basically said "yeah whatever kid, I know who you really are". Poe made fun of his mask. Snoke told him to take that ridiculous thing off and called him a child.

He's a spoiled, mentally unstable kid who thinks all this power is his birth right just because he has Skywalker blood in him. He left his training too early (he can't even make a decent light saber that doesn't sputter and look like it's going to short out) and now he's using his power on a bunch of regular folks who can't fight back on that playing field. Now someone comes along who Is strong in the force but has more heart, determination and maturity and he can't handle it.

"Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard".

He's like the Andrew Golota of the force world. Natural ability but will never be great because he's too much of a headcase and melts down in the middle of fights.

 

That is so generalized I don't see the relevance.

Episodes I-VI.

Yes but the only person that recognizes that is... a Jedi.

No one else is saying that's a Jedi trait because they wouldn't recognize it because they aren't Jedi. Now if Anakin was sweeping up the Watto's shop by Force-wielding a broom around I think even Watto would notice!

And again the genius of Lucas here is that Watto specifically mentions about does Qui-Gon think he's a Jedi waving his hand about? So Watto knows of the Jedi. Knows of the mind trick and yet has no idea of any traits Anakin has that are Jedi-like.

Again context of who is saying what and when.

This is the great thing about Lucas' vision. When you build worlds and place characters in those worlds and have rules then so many answers as to what is going on present themselves. With the ST those rules aren't there and like so many movies and TV series writing nowadays they want moments here and moments there and then sort of jam them together.

Not really. As I explained before the X-Men idea is certainly what the ST is indicating with stableboy. Rey could be a one-off but it's really stableboy that changes the equation.

So here we have stableboy who is clearly referencing Anakin in terms of a young white male around 9 in slavery who is looking to the stars (just as Anakin did). The Harry Potter reference could also hardly be clearer ( a broom flys to him no less! ACCIO!)

Anakin could only be found out by a Jedi and needs training to unlock his more overtly special and obvious powers. Anyone seeing stableboy Force sweeping is going to say "Hey why don't you try out for the Jedi?"

The Jedi are more than learning how to use power. That is but one part. It's an entire way of life. If kids are going to be like Rey and stableboy then learning how to use power is like "X-Men" an additional.

So Anakin can't unlock his real power without years of training and as part of that he commits to the Jedi path. Stableboy at 9 is like a mutant (actually even faster since their powers seem to be part of puberty) who is gaining power regardless of teaching. X-Men students aren't just seemingly totally normal then with training gain powers. They already have and display the RAW power so the X-Men teaching is more about refining said powers. Now obviously as they get older then they seem to gain more power but that is not directly connected to the actual teaching.

There the power is coming whether you like it or not. Anakin is not like some firestarter mutant and the like who has powers he can't control.

Now Anakin might very well be different from every other Force user ever so it's possible that at 19 he might very well be moving objects around at some point. Entirely possible but the point is that are we to believe that stableboy has a way higher midi-chlorian count than Anakin (The Chosen One) and is therefore even more Force-Sensitive then he was?