The Emperor believed that Luke was the "Chosen One"

While I do believe Anakin was the "Chosen One", I also believe that Palpatine did not realize this. Had he known that Anakin was the "Chosen One", not only would he never have let Anakin anywhere near him, but he would have been one of the first Jedi to be killed in the Jedi Purge.

Since Palpatine was focused on Luke as the "Chosen One", he wasn't paying attention to the conflict within and eventual turning of Vader back into Anakin. In fact, it was Palpatine who stated that "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi", which plays in the "Son of sons"/"Son of suns" aspect of the Prophecy as stated in early SW literature. I'm sure the fact that Anakin assisted in wiping out the Jedi Order convinced everyone, including himself, that he was beyond redemption, and in no way could possibly be the "Chosen One."

Case in point: From the ROTJ novelization (supported by dialogue from the film)

Suddenly the Emperor was there, looking on, chuckling with uncontrollable, pleased agitation. "Good! Kill him! Your hate has made you powerful! Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"

Luke stared at his father beneath him, then at the Emperor, then back at Vader. This was Darkness?and it was the Darkness he hated. Not his father, not even the Emperor. But the Darkness in them. In them, and in himself.

And the only way to destroy the Darkness way to renounce it. For good and all. He stood suddenly erect, and made the decision for which he'd spent his life in preparation.

He hurled his lightsaber away. "Never! Never will I turn to the dark side! You have failed, Palpatine. I am a Jedi, as my father was before me."

The Emperor's glee turned to a sullen rage. "So be it, Jedi. If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed."

What "destiny" could Palpatine be referring to, if not "The Prophecy"? Of course, "Balance of the Force" isn't very specific, and thus is open to interpretation by the Jedi, Sith, and millions of Star Wars fans.

Remember that in ESB, Vader told Luke "you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way."

Luke's "destiny" was interpreted by Vader as destroying Palpatine. However, Palpatine states that Luke must "fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!" Did Palps have a different interpretation, or was overconfidence truly his weakness in a vain attempt to turn Luke to the Dark Side, as he had done to Luke's father? This may never be answered.

Unfortunately for Palps (though fortunately for Luke), he did not realize that Luke would be but the fulcrum upon which this "destiny" would hinge. Had it not been for Luke's presence and courage, as well as Palpatine's actions against him, Vader would never have had any reason to turn against Palpatine in his son's defense.

Then again, I could be wrong.

(How's that, DLM? )

 

You bring up some intersting points

While I do believe Anakin was the "Chosen One", I also believe that Palpatine did not realize this. Had he known that Anakin was the "Chosen One", not only would he never have let Anakin anywhere near him, but he would have been one of the first Jedi to be killed in the Jedi Purge.

I believe that Palpatine knew Anakin was the chosen one. He seems to know alot about Anakin, and it wasn't exactly a secret that Anakin is the chosen one. I think Palps took special interest in Anakin for that reason. He believed that he could control Anakin and stop the Prophecy from occuring. We still are not sure what the Prophecy means exactly. I have heard that the Prophecy was going to state that the darkside would overcome the lightside before balance would come. If this is true, it makes perfect sense that Palps would try and control Anakin. I think Palpatine's arrogance in believing that he had stopped the Prophecy from comming true, actually made the chosen one stand up.

 

Well...it all depends on what balance to the Force means. Some believe its simply the lightside overtrhowing the darkside,so the prophecy is fullfilled in ROTJ. Others believe that balance is when the light and dark side are equal. Which they are in ANH. 2 Jedi, (Yoda and Ben) and 2 Sith (Palpatine and Vader). So, then it would be fullfilled in EP.III. Then some believe that Luke is the chosen one. I believe in the second term. I think Palps just means that he has forseen Luke's destiny to be one with darkness, hence turining to the "dark side". I kindov think Vader is lying when he says that the Emporer actually forsaw Luke destrying him. I think he is just tempting Luke to join him, and then they really could overthrow Palps. I think Palps just saw Luke using the dark side in Luke's future. And he assumed that Luke would be joining him, and killing Vader. Luke *did* use the dark side in ROTJ, when he attacked Vader after hiding in the throne room. What Palps didn't forsee, or he simply didn't want to forsee it because of stubborness, was Luke rejecting the dark side in the end. Sorry for the long post.

 

Vader did not lie to Luke in TESB. In the very same episode, Palpatine said to Vader "He could destroy us". Vader just replaced the word "us" with "the Emperor" when he told Luke this.

I think Palpatine simply interpreted the prophecy in such a way that the dark side would win. In his eyes, the prophecy would be fulfilled when the last of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker, either turned to the dark side or died and it would be Anakin, the chosen one, who caused it, since it was because of him that their meeting in ROTJ happened at all.

 

"I believe that Palpatine knew Anakin was the chosen one. He seems to know alot about Anakin, and it wasn't exactly a secret that Anakin is the chosen one."

Well, considering he doesn't prove it until ROTJ, how is anyone really supposed to know? Even Mace and Yoda don't know for sure. Obi-wan seems to be tired of hearing Anakin brag about how he thinks he's better than them.

Palpatine knows a great deal about Anakin because he's been "mentoring" him for 10 years, fashioning him into a possible apprentice, especially after losing Maul. He's keeping Anakin on the back burner. Palpatine is not only Anakin's potential as a Jedi, but also the potential for twisting Anakin's fears for his own needs.

Hell, even Vader believes that Luke is the one who will destroy Palpatine.
ESB - "you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this."

Later on, in ROTJ (with some dialogue discrepencies)

"I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father."

"That name no longer has meaning for me." It was a name long ago. A different life, a different universe. Could he truly once have been that man?

"It is the name of your true self," Luke's gaze bore steadily down on the cloaked figure. "You have only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it fully away." He molded with his voice, tried to form the potential reality with the strength of his belief. "That's why you could not destroy me. That's why you won't take me to your Emperor now."

Vader seemed almost to smile through his mask at his son's use of Jedi voice-manipulation. He looked down at the lightsaber the captain had given him - Luke's lightsaber. So the boy was truly a Jedi now. A man grown. He held the lightsaber up. "You have constructed another."

"This one is mine," Luke said quietly. "I no longer use yours."

Vader ignited the blade, examined its humming brilliant light, like an admiring craftsman. "Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are as powerful as the Emperor has foreseen."

They stood there for a moment, the lightsaber between them. Sparks dove in and out of the cutting edge: photons pushed to the brink by the energy pulsing between these two warriors.

"Come with me, Father."

Vader shook his head. "Ben once thought as you do-"

"Don't blame Ben for your fall-" Luke took a step closer, then stopped.

Vader did not move. "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master."

"I will not turn-you will be forced to destroy me."

"If that is your destiny." This was not his wish, but the boy was strong-if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no long afford to hold back, as he once had.

"Search your feelings, Father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."

But Vader hated no one; he only lusted too blindly. "Someone has filled your mind with foolish ideas, young one. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master, now."

Vader signaled to a squad of distant stormtroopers as he extinguished Luke's lightsaber. The guards approached. Luke and the Dark Lord faced one another for a long, searching moment. Vader spoke just before the guards arrived.

"It is too late for me, Son."

You can clearly see that both Skywalkers are trying to get the other to face the Emperor, as neither Skywalker believes he is capable of doing it himself. Anakin so much as admits this to Luke, and refuses to acknowledge any "conflict" that Luke feels.

More clues into Palpatine's beliefs from the novelization...

"They made eye contact from light-years and a soul's breath away. Across that abyss, Vader responded. "My master, a small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor."

"Yes, I know." There was no hint of surprise in his tone; rather, fulfillment.

Vader noted this, then went on. "My son is with them."

The Emperor's brow furrowed less than a millimeter. His voice remained cool, unruffled, sl

 

I give ya this. When you want to get your point across you really go full on. It's too early for me to think about this, so I'll come back later.

 

Don't give me that much credit. Most of it was copy-&-paste.

(I had to beat DLM to that comment.)

Where the hell is she, anyways? So much for "going along for the ride". It must've been one of those "certain point of view" comments.

 

He'd have known it was Vader

Master Tang - "The Chosen One will bear the mark of eternal wisdom"

*chosen one sticks out tongue

Tonguey - "Yie yie yie!"

Master Tang - "What in god's name is that thing? Does it have a name?"

Chosen One - "Tonguey"

Master Tang - "I should not have asked"

 

Now THAT'S EU.

 

Courtesy reply for the sake of Eric's ego.

I hate to say it, but I see a huge hole in your reasoning there. Why in blazes would Palpy, or Vader, or both of them, be telling the truth when they said all those things?

In AotC, Yoda equates the dark side with telling lies and creating deceit. The suspicion we might get from this that the OT-era Sith lords are not to be trusted can be verified easily enough by looking at their behaviors. Notice how Vader's "He will join us or die" becomes "Come with me" when he's alone with Luke? What about how Palpy claims to have foreseen a number of events that never come to pass? For the Sith, creating a personal image by spreading appropriate lies is the only way to gain power. There are no grounds for assuming any of the dialogue between Palpy and Vader reflected their true opinions.

 

"Yoda equates the dark side with telling lies and creating deceit."

So now Yoda's an expert? Who's hiding on Dagobah in the OT? ?

Yoda - "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor."

Sounds to me like he's speaking from personal experience.

"The suspicion we might get from this that the OT-era Sith lords are not to be trusted can be verified easily enough by looking at their behaviors."

Where there's smoke, there's fire? Palpatine didn't bring down the Senate, much less the Republic, all on his own. Everyone helped in their own little way. He just made sure the effects of their choices worked in his favor.

Remember, the best lies are based on a truth. Palps was merely the catalyst in the rolling snowball that was the already-existant problems in both the Senate and the Jedi order, as stated by the Senators and Jedi themselves. Surely, they aren't lying a well?

"Notice how Vader's "He will join us or die" becomes "Come with me" when he's alone with Luke?"

Understandable. Are we not always truly honest to best friends and loved ones, nor two-faced to those we really hate? Vader's words, as well as their contradictions, are completely understandable in light of normal human behavior. There's a little Sith in all of us (some bigger than others. )

Vader's intentions in both situations are completely clear. He doesn't suffer from short-term memory. His words have more than one meaning.

"What about how Palpy claims to have foreseen a number of events that never come to pass?"

Well, if, as you believe, the Sith always lie ("No, Luke. I am your father." ), then surely you can't take Sidious' word for granted when he says "everything has gone as I have forseen", right?

Come on, he's not going to admit to any weakness or oversight in from of his apprentice. He played it off quite well in front of Vader in ROTJ, don'tcha think?

Besides, the novelization makes a very clear - and non-conflicting - point in ROTJ..

"Strange, that I have not," the Emperor murmured, his eyes becoming slits. They both knew the Force wasn't all-powerful-and no one was infallible with its use. It had everything to do with awareness, with vision. Certainly, Vader and his son were more closely linked than was the Emperor with young Skywalker-but, in addition, the Emperor was now aware of a crosscurrent he hadn't read before, a buckle in the Force he couldn't quite understand. "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader."

The Force isn't all powerful, nor can it solve every problem. Otherwise, the Jedi would never have been extinguished in the first place, or would the Emperor have been so wrong in his final prediction in ROTJ.

It wasn't the Force that saved Anakin, it was love.

"creating a personal image by spreading appropriate lies is the only way to gain power."

As oposed to "inappropriate" lies? Now you accuse the Sith of "white" lies.

"There are no grounds for assuming any of the dialogue between Palpy and Vader reflected their true opinions."

But nothing I said conflicts with the films, either. Besides, to assume that everything they said was a lie takes a lot of the intended weight out of their statements. The tension arises from trying to determine the extent to which what they said was true, or what context they were actually referring to.

That is the beauty of the OT dialogue.

 

One point that i can't see is that Palpatine didn't even know that Luke existed so how can he have thought that he was the chosen one?

Secondly maybe Palpatine knew that Anakin was the chosen one. If this was the case he probably thought that he would have a better time manipulating him if he was on his team. If Anakin had stayed with the Jedi and fulfilled the prophecy then, Palpatine would have been screwed. However, once Anakin was on the darkside and the other Jedi were Dead, Palpatine not knowing about Luke etc would have not worried as much about the chosen one stuff thinking that Vader wouldn't turn on him by himself.
Hope this makes some sort of sense.

 

"One point that i can't see is that Palpatine didn't even know that Luke existed so how can he have thought that he was the chosen one? "

I didn't mean to imply that Sid never considers Anakin to be the "Chosen One", simply that if he did, his mind might be changed pretty quickly when Anakin wipes out the Jedi order and helps enslave the galaxy.

Doesn't sound like something a "Chosen One" would do, does it? It sure as hell would change my opinion of Anakin.

In turn, when Sid hears about Luke, and discovers his lineage, the "Son of Sons/Suns" line suddenly makes more sense (assuming he knows about the Prophecy.)

Of course, Palpatine may simply have foretold Anakin's links to Jedi/wife/potential children as being some sort of thread, and thus he engineers something to happen to her or her children to prevent this, and Anakin comes to realize this at the end of ROTJ.

"Palpatine not knowing about Luke etc would have not worried as much about the chosen one stuff thinking that Vader wouldn't turn on him by himself. Hope this makes some sort of sense."

Don't worry, it does. The problem is that nobody knows how much Sidious actually knows. Is the Prophecy something known to many Jedi, or simply a few. If Dooku knows of it, the he might have told Sid. Then again, it should be in the Jedi archives, so whoever deleted Kamino might have run across it as well.

Then again, Sid may have no clue whatsoever about it, and never bothers to look beyond his own plans and known elements. This could work, since he completely missed Luke coming to Endor. It wasn't until he re-checked himself that he saw Luke coming to Vader.

 

i am not going to coment on it but this is one of the best post i have seen on topic i love this story

 

Thank you.

I just noticed an interesting error in my post...

"Of course, Palpatine may simply have foretold Anakin's links to Jedi/wife/potential children as being some sort of thread"

Obviously, that should be threat. Can't imagine what I was thinking about.

 

I hate to say it, but I see a huge hole in your reasoning there. Why in blazes would Palpy, or Vader, or both of them, be telling the truth when they said all those things?

In AotC, Yoda equates the dark side with telling lies and creating deceit.

And yet we have Dooku telling Obi-Wan the truth about Sideous controlling the Senate and his involvement with the Trade Federation ten years ago.

 

Dooku also tells Obi-Wan that he defected from the Jedi order because it wasn't righteous enough for him and says he wants to destroy the Sith. So you're going to claim that because Dooku made one or two truthful statements, he's a trustworthy guy?

I didn't mean to imply that Sid never considers Anakin to be the "Chosen One", simply that if he did, his mind might be changed pretty quickly when Anakin wipes out the Jedi order and helps enslave the galaxy.

Doesn't sound like something a "Chosen One" would do, does it? It sure as hell would change my opinion of Anakin.

As you said, it comes back to the question of how much Palpy knows about the prophecy. Does he think it's the straightforward GFFA-equivalent of a messianic prophesy, or does he expect that the prophesy is more complicated than its surface appearance of a prediction of future good things for the Jedi? You quoted a line from the RotJ novelization showing how much Palpy appreciated the subtle uncertainties involved in prognostication, so I'll let you answer that.

 

I prefer to leave you hanging.

 

How do we know Palpatine even knows about the chosen one? Is there a little mention of the chosen one in the Sith archives? (Do the Sith have archives?) I think he knows Anakin is powerful, but unless Anakin mentions, "Oh, and the Jedi say I'm the chosen one." then I don't think Palpatine is just going to pick it up. It doesn't seem like the "chosen one" business is common knowledge in the GFFA; only the Jedi mention it.

Personally, I think Palpatine saw Luke as a good way to get rid of Vader, who Palpatine saw as either yesterday's news (ie, he wanted to change in Vader for a shiny new padawan) or simply because he percieved Vader as becoming a threat. After all, Vader has been bargaining for Luke pretty hard. Is there any doubt Vader would want to use Luke to help him usurp Palpy? After all, there can be only two Sith at a time. But if Palpatine can take Luke from under Vader's nose, well then, he takes away the threat from him, doesn't he?

 

"How do we know Palpatine even knows about the chosen one? It doesn't seem like the "chosen one" business is common knowledge in the GFFA; only the Jedi mention it. "

Well, as Yoda goes to show, even knowing the Prophecy doesn't really help explain who or what is involved.

Also don't forget that...

1) Someone got into and tampered with the Jedi archives, which could have contained this info, and/or
2) Dooku, a prior Jedi, may have heard something about this, and passed it along to Palps (or kept it to himself. If he really is trying to stop the Sith as an "insider", then this info is best kept in a safe place until needed.)

"But if Palpatine can take Luke from under Vader's nose, well then, he takes away the threat from him, doesn't he?"

Correct in theory, though I think all involved parties were surprised at the outcome, especially Vader.

 

I must admit when thinking about the chosen one prophecy I'm never sure if Palpatine knows about it or not, or if he knows the prophecy in full.

If he does know it in full you would have thought that he would want the chosen one killed rather than on his side, or does he believe that if he tries to kill the chosen one it will bring the prophecy to conclusion i.e. he will die.

So is Palpatine trying tho delay the conclusion of the prophecy?

If he thinks Luke is the chosen one is getting him on side another attempt at delaying the prophecy?

 

some good stuff in this post

 

Thank you.

 

This is really fun!


I tend to thind that Palpy did think that Ani was the Chosen one and saw the opportunity to turn him simply as a away to control him. It's also obvious that the Chosen One would be very powerful, so maybe Palpy just decided to ignore the balancing force stuff and just go for the most powerful/muniputible guy he could find to help secure his rise to power.
I mean, after all, its pretty clear that Sith tend to be a little on the power hungry side. Maybe it was kind of a turn him now, worry about the rest later kind of thing.

I also think that maybe Vader wasn't as powerful as he had been as Ani because if you think about it, it took him turning back to the light and becomiing Ani again for him to defeat Palpy. And of course as Vader he was kept on a leash by Palpy, and Palpy, knowing how powerful he actually was, was careful to keep him in line and under control at all times. This suggests that he did think that Ani was the chosen one, and probably did have the power to defeat him, but believed him so under his control that it didn't matter.

As for Luke, well, the son of the Chosen one would be pretty powerful, and Palpy would of course tell Vader that Luke could destroy him because he had sort of brainwashed Vader into not realizing how powerful he really was.

Vader never really struck me as arrogant either, which suggests that under Palpy's mastership, his spirit of defiance was pretty much crushed, yet another way to control him.

One more point; We really don't know how many jedi Vader killed in the jedi purges. For all we know, Ani didn't join Palpy 'til the end of the purges, when all that were left were the strongest most powerful of the jedi masters. Maybe the purges were a tool to help turn Anakin. After all, we saw how he responded in AOTC when he charged Dooku saying "You will pay for all the jedi you killed today." I don't know about you, but seeing six month old babies murdered would make me hate the murderer.
If the purges were used as a tool to turn Anakin then this proves that Palpy did think that Ani was the chosen one and wanted his power on his side, and wanted him under control because he would have done an awful lot for one man.


Anyways,I'm done, what do you think?

Shay

 

"For all we know, Ani didn't join Palpy 'til the end of the purges, when all that were left were the strongest most powerful of the jedi masters."

From the script...

---

[b]BEN - [i]"He was betrayed and murdered ... bya young Jedi, Darth Vader. A boy I was training, one of my brightest disciples, one of my greatest failures ... He used the power of the force for evil - to help the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights, now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force and it consumed him."[/i][/b][hr][/blockquote]Unfortunately, as of this time, it appears that the Jedi Purge won't be shown in Ep.III (except the beginning, [i]a la[/i] "Clone War"). I have a feeling Anakin will be in from the beginning, though I wouldn't be surprised if Anakin starts helping right after the Purge begins.

[i]"If the purges were used as a tool to turn Anakin then this proves that Palpy did think that Ani was the chosen one and wanted his power on his side"[/i]

As for Anakin being the Chosen One...[link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=12186291&replies=673]Anakin isn't the Chosen One!!!!!![/link] ;)

I also proposed a scenario where [i]Palpatine[/i] considers [i]himself[/i] to be the Chosen One as well, in [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11620901]The Nature of the Prophecy?[/link] (This last one is a [u]very long read![/u] ;) )