PT The Emperors Facial Transformation.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DARTHKANISS, Oct 17, 2013.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not really, no.

    "He’s leaving out some key details (...) but he isn’t lying. The best plots depend not on lies, but on manipulating your opponent to do what he’d rather not."
  2. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    What a hollow distinction that makes an absolute mockery of the word "truth".
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "I have the power to save the one you love"
    vs
    "If we work together, I know we can discover the secret"

    was the most overt contradiction.

    The RoTS novel did seem to support the notion that it was the lightning itself that had somehow damaged his face:

    "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—"
    Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
    "Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.
    The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.
    ...
    Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat.
    The hand on his shoulder was human. The face... wasn't.
    The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast.
    Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow.
    Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.
    "Now come inside," the darkness said.
    After a moment, he did.
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It only distinguishes between factually true statements, the "whole truth" ( snicker), and What's Good For Poor Widdle Anakin.

    And it's not even a contradiction. In fact, the second statement, if taken at face value, makes the accuracy of the first statement a logically necessary result.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 22, 2013
  5. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Interesting. It does explicitly say that most of it is from the lightning, but the line about "the yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh" is the only part that would suggest otherwise.
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, he lies to him outright. He tells us the story of a master passing on everything he knew to an apprentice who is then murdered. Passing on EVERYTHING he knew. He then says that the power to save people from death was only achieved by one, and that the secret needs to be discovered. These are not compatible statements. Something is a lie.
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The words "as though" may be significant.

    You only assume the "he" referred to the master and not the apprentice, but it can be interpreted either way.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 22, 2013
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    we've been down that silly road before. Even if what you suggest is true, and I am in no way conceding that it is, that means it's a power that was known to more than one. Which would again make that statement a lie.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 22, 2013
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You're getting confused. You're the one saying it was known to more than one, not me.
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Actually, Palpatine is the one who said it. This is just a silly exercise in semantics
  11. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I tend to agree with Yubnub's summation here - however I think there's enough evidence or supposition on both sides to support whatever you wish to believe....
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    I find the idea of physical ugliness as a reflection of evil infantile and worthy of fiction for the kiddies. People can be very beautiful and evil at the same time. I'm wondering why this is difficult for many people to accept. Why does an evil character have to look ugly?


    For me, that kind of characterization is solely for kids. But apparently, many adults are incapable of rising above such characterization.
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 22, 2013
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  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Roald Dahl's The Twits was a classic example of this.

    Still- just because kiddie fiction does it, does not mean that the concept is only for kiddies.
  14. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4

    Yeah, you're being very mature, here. :rolleyes:
  15. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    I just figured it was inspired by the old belief that using Black Magic brings power, but results in the body degenerating. So, Palpatine always looked degenerated, but used his power to hide it for as long as it suited his purposes.
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  16. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    I think it's a dangerous characterization to make frankly - especially for kiddos.... Take the inverse, would you then suppose that all ugly people are evil? Who determines ugly? And in a further step - would we say physically beautiful people are always good? That would be absurd. Physical beauty relationships to inner beauty (or benevolence of character) is precisely what I'm trying to tutor my children AGAINST...
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True. Still, the idea is that it's magically created ugliness, not the "normal" form - and looks somewhat different.

    Very much like Voldemort in Harry Potter. Initially an extremely handsome teenager, whose face warped over time thanks to his use of Dark Magic in attempts to make himself invincible.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 23, 2013
  18. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Understood - and true that we can always say that evil is ugly... however ugly is not always evil... Not saying that argument is not valid - just saying we have to tread lightly and be very specific with our language as we discuss it.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed. In The The Twits example, the narration, after saying that evil thoughts can corrupt the appearance of a pretty person, goes out of the way to say that physically unattractive people with "inner beauty" will have this shine through:

    "You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely."
  20. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    That's the exact logic I used when I proposed to my wife... and surprising enough, it worked... :p
  21. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Guys, this is pure Star Wars. Sidious' warped face is the same as Luke and Leia wearing white, Darth Vader wearing black in both the PT (well, Anakin's darker robes) and OT, the Empire dressing up like Nazis, the clone troopers practically goose stepping in AOTC, Darth Maul's demonic appearance, the Hutt's obesity, etc.

    Palpatine didn't have to look ugly, it's just cool that he does. No one finds it hard to accept that sometimes evil is beautiful.

    This is a huge part of what makes Star Wars what it is.

    This pic shows the light side and dark side of various player character models from the video game Knights of the Old Republic, I thought it was really cool to see yourself change due to your decisions over the course of the game.
    [IMG]
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  22. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Understood - and I can follow and appreciate the logical relationship between evil and ugly. In that respect, the Star Wars universe has a very "black & white" view of the universe as a whole.

    Refocusing on the original question - I tend to agree with the multitude of posts here referring to Palp's original human face as gradually becoming a facade over time as he became more and more intuned with the Dark Side. Eventually allowing that facade to fall as it no longer was required... he had achieved all his goals which required him to keep up the masquerade... The work ahead only required brute force and ruthlessness.
  23. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all the senators..."

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transpired

    tran·spire (trn-spr)
    v. tran·spired, tran·spir·ing, tran·spires
    v.tr.
    To give off (vapor containing waste products) through the pores of the skin or the stomata of plant tissue.
    v.intr.
    1. To become known; come to light.
    2. Usage Problem To come about; happen or occur.
    3. To give off vapor containing waste products, as through animal or plant pores.
    [French transpirer, from Medieval Latin trnsprre : Latin trns-, trans- + Latin sprre, to breathe.]


    * * *


    I lean more toward the idea that the "Emperor" face is Palpatine/Sidious' real face at the moment in which he "creates" it.

    Sort of the end product of his contained odium, now transpiring because the organic mask of Palpatine -- a face, in essence, as real as any other; at least, while Sidious chose it to be -- can no longer hold it in.

    That might sound like a cop-out, but what I'm saying, in essence, is that Palpatine was undergoing a bit of a struggle with his own Dark Side, with himself as the eventual loser.


    * * *


    This Q&A session from eight years ago may also be helpful:

    http://uk.ign.com/articles/2005/10/12/interview-ian-mcdiarmid

    IGN: How tough was it to go from the subtle evil in the first films to the over-the-top aggression the Emperor shows in Episode III, particularly given the fact you already established his behavior in Return of the Jedi?

    McDiarmid: Well, it's very interesting. I've said this a few times, but in the notes that George gave - not really notes, it was just talking - he said that you should think of your eyes as his, Sidious' contact lenses. In other words, my face is his mask, which is an extremely interesting thing to say to an actor. I knew that this face would have to burst through my own mask, so in a sense I couldn't wait, and I also knew that they would mix it from one face into another - my sort of Dr. Jekyll-Mr. Hyde, Dorian Gray moment, where outer good is subverted by inner evil. So I was really looking forward to it, and to the moment when Palpatine's voice goes from one to the other - from lightish gray to darkest black. It was a scene I was really looking forward to, and one that I embraced, and when we were filming it, George got closer and closer and closer with that camera - he was practically up my nose for the final shot. So I knew it was a moment that I had to do my best to get right.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Oct 24, 2013
  24. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Very interesting part of the definition... lends itself to an interpretation of what happened here for sure... For a Sith, the "waste products" could be considered the seemingly civilized and benevolent face that Palps retained to that point.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    [IMG]

    Visionaries was all I needed to read.;)

    [IMG]

    Like Darth Zannah's spell for a false light side aura, Sidious presented a facade that his own lightning "melted away".
    Arawn_Fenn and Cryogenic like this.
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