PT The Emperors Facial Transformation.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DARTHKANISS, Oct 17, 2013.

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  1. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I like that idea, too.

    The whole concept of surfaces and facades has not been seriously explored in/with the SW saga.

    Yet it's undoubtedly, in my mind, one of the major thematic preoccupations of all six movies.
  2. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    TESB was my favorite loaded gun.:p

    Darth Vader: "If he could be turned, he would be a powerful ally."

    ***
    Darth Vader: "Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this...."
    Cryogenic likes this.
  3. Mzukiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    I like believing that his skin actually melted. Yeah, the dark side corrupting his face thing sounds cool. But it's a bit too predictable. It means more if he was just literally scarred by his own power.
    Vialco likes this.
  4. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    After all the debate here, I'm starting to think he just picked the wrong day to run out of that night-cream from Avon... boy that stuff does wonders....
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You don't really need the quotation marks there, if it's the product of some kind of Sith alchemy...
  6. AplagueOnTheWise Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2013
    star 1
    In the Darth Plagueis novel it also supports the "mask" theory. When Sidious is fully engulfed in the dark side while running through a compound seeking revenge for the attempt on his masters life. After the carnage Sidious looks in the mirror and describes his true face.
  7. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 22, 2013
    star 3
    Welcome to the boards AplagueOnTheWise.
  8. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    See, I don't really see Anakin as some chump. I always saw him as this arrogant kid who thought himself as a demi-god. And thinking that he had the ability to do incredible things, and that he was the chosen one, he just assumed that he could achieve even more power. The problem is, everyone made him feel like he was this special being, and Anakin ended up believing that he was.

    And as far Sidious's transformation goes: if it was his true appearance, then why didn't he use that look when conversing with the Seperatists? Wouldn't it have been wiser to use that look than use his Palpatine visage?
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Oct 27, 2013
  9. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    From the script:
    Not really a definitive answer, but it sort of describes his face distorting and his eyes yellowing as a result of increasing his power, possibly taking away energy that would have been spent retaining his human image. Also, I think it's notable that it doesn't say anything about scarring or melting.

    Upon seeing the transformation, Windu comments "you Sith disease."
    Last edited by SlashMan, Nov 15, 2013
  10. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    I dont' think anyone saw him in RotJ and thought "that guy is scared", just "that guy is really old". He is described in the script as a shriveled old man. The "hiding his true self" and the "scared from the lightning" things both work, but neither was really needed.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He looks more than just really old. His head is starting to look like he's some kind of alien and old people don't have eyes like that.
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3




    It is, I agree, infantile. But it goes a little further, I think, than simply childrens' stories. If you have read Homer, at all, then the 'beauty' of a character is a signal of their 'nobility'.

    In a way this can be seen as a 'mythical' standard, but I think that the reasons behind it are rarely understood. Those who were of noble birth - born of aristocratic families - would have been particularly well fed. They would have had a relatively strong physical upbringing. The wheat in their bread would have been well ground, they would have fed on the better cuts of meat and would have been, in general, in better physical condition than the peasantry. They would not have been subject, as much, to the diseases and illnesses that best the peasantry. Their skin will have been healthier, they would be less likely to contract such as rickets or other growth related illnesses in their youth.

    It is widely believed that people were shorter in the middle ages. This is not necessarily true. What was actually going on was that people's growth was restricted by poor dietary and hygeine so that - where today people have generally grown to their full physical extent by 18 - people were still growing and maturing physically into their late twenties; and not that many reached their late twenties.

    The reason beauty is associated with good and ugliness associated with 'bad' is the same reason that we have terms like 'villain' and 'devil' from de ville (of the village). Even the term pagan (with its negative connotations in Christianity) comes from the Latin pagus, which referred to smaller political entities (ie village communities). The idea of beauty=good, ugly=evil is from the same base idea that nobility (and think about the meanings of the word 'noble') have some innate right to their power.
  13. Merkual Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 4
    having Palpatine literally using the force to hide his true appearance on many occasions and in front of Jedi council members is an even bigger nail in the coffin for how stupid the PT Jedi are.

    there are other points to suggest that the "masking idea" doesn't work

    1. why does he feel the need to "hide" his appearance in front of Maul and Dooku, or is this mask a permanent thing that can only be foiled by..literal force electricity? :confused:

    2. It works that nobody had a clue Palpatine was Sidious because Palpatine had never had to use the force in all those years, look on the invisible hand for instance, there was no clue Palpatine was helping in that situation even though his life was at risk. Doing so would make note that the guy was a force sensitive.

    3. [IMG] < Palps in AOTC, notice the redness around the eyes, and raw complexion

    [IMG] < Palpatine in ROTS, looks a lot healthier despite being older, and the stresses of the job

    in conclusion, it seems that Lucas was playing with a gradual transformation and then changed his mind, this is pure speculation, but to me seems evident.
    Last edited by Merkual, Nov 16, 2013
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It doesn't work that way. He doesn't have to use the Force in front of the Jedi.
  15. Merkual Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 4
    so are you saying he was wearing make-up and cosmetic powder to conceal his identity?

    (this isn't a factious question, since you didn't follow up your statement with anything conclusive to what you meant, prove to me I'm wrong, don't just say I am)
  16. TX-20 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 4
    I bet the Sith have access to the face making technology from the Mission: Impossible franchise.
  17. Merkual Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 4
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, I'm saying he uses Sith alchemy.
  19. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    This discussion is all well and good, but it's worth noting that there is simply nothing in the movies to support the "mask" theory. Prior to the Mace Windu duel, Palpatine is always seen as the handsome senator, even during his private discussions with Maul or Tyranus or the holo-images with the Trade Federation. Yes, his face is partially obscured, but it's clearly still an unscarred face. After the Windu duel, he never returns to being the dashing senator. Furthermore, no other Sith Lord engages in any sort of transformation.
  20. Merkual Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 4
    No, I'm saying he uses Sith alchemy.
    -------------------------------------------------

    As I don't follow EU, I don't accept that explanation,

    unless I'm missing something from film evidence that such a thing exists, if so I apologise and would be grateful if you enlighten me, as to which scene in what movie (either OT or PT) this Sith alchemy is in.
  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I don't think what you're saying quite correlates to the origins of those words -- but it's a neat theory.

    It's interesting how even the Old Testament enshrines the nobility and awesomeness of a city as the ideal state. Read, for example, the instruction in Deuteronomy (22:24) -- pretty abhorrent by today's standards, but a clear demand that the city be kept clean and unsullied.

    Star Wars notably shares this feature of reverence for cities / the city state. In an early part of TPM, for instance, Qui-Gon is stopped dead in his tracks when Jar Jar mentions knowing "Gunga City" -- "A city?" -- while Qui-Gon warns Panaka against pushing Padme onto him as they prepare to head off to Mos Espa: "the spacesport is not going to be pleasant". Yet arguably, for them, at least, it doesn't turn out all that unpleasant. Later still, Anakin seems awed by Coruscant (an awe partially shared, it seems, by his chaperone, Ric Olie: "The entire planet is one big city") -- look at him looking around on the landing platform -- while more subtle city-awe (from the filmmaker to the audience) is implied in the remainder of the PT's visuals (especially those in the opening act of AOTC; even with this film being at its most critical of such urban futurism; and Coruscant is clearly an early form of the approaching/soon-to-be-developed Death Star). In TESB, Luke practically has an orgasm when he recalls his vision to Yoda: "I saw a city in the clouds!"

    Thanks for that thoughtful post. I'd been meaning to spill these mental meanderings for a while.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So what? How does the above observation, which doesn't conflict with the mask theory at all, have any relevance?

    Because at that point he can use his appearance as evidence of the "Jedi rebellion".
  23. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    What part of "there is simply nothing in the movies to support the "mask" theory" do you not understand? All I'm saying is that purely from a movie perspective, there is nothing there to support these claims.
    Weaksauce. The brain dead senators believe anything and everything this guy has said for about a decade. He didn't need physical scars - especially ones so pronounced - to get them to believe in the notion of the Jedi rebellion.
  24. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Between the script saying that his features distorted as he struggled to intensify his powers and John Knoll on the DVD commentary saying that it is the strain and exertion that disfigures him, I'm inclined to think that neither the mask theory nor the lightning scarring theory are entirely accurate.

    A mask implies that he was actively disguising himself, and the lightning theory implies that it is the lightning arcing back on Palpatine that deforms him.

    The script and Knoll seem to suggest that it isn't the lightning arcing back on him that scars him, it is the exertion of calling on such powerful Dark Side energies to FUEL the lightning that deform him. Otherwise why wasn't Mace scarred?

    But nor was it a mask IMO, it wasn't some disguise being lifted, he was being deformed right then and there.

    To sum up: Palpatine was scarred, but due to the energy required to fuel the lightning, not as the result of being hit by it.

    (All IMO)
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The part where it isn't true. The so-called "mask theory" didn't come out of nowhere. It's prompted by some things from the films and promoted by the actor who played the character, who presumably knows a little bit more about Lucas' intentions than random people on the internet. And the fact that the word "alchemy" never comes up in the films doesn't really matter all that much, because the films do talk about Sith midichlorian manipulation, which in this context amounts to the same thing. Once the films express the idea that the Sith have access to unnatural and esoteric powers, it's pointless to act as if all possibilities have to be explicitly spelled out to you on screen.

    The script and Knoll don't even say that he was "scarred", because he wasn't. He now has perfectly symmetrical facial grooves - are we supposed to think the lightning somehow hit him in an exactly symmetrical way? And what about his "scarred" Sith-like eyes, or his "scarred" nasty-looking teeth? These sources seem to present a case for transformation rather than simple deformation, and that would fit with McDiarmid's claim that Lucas considered showing Palpatine alternating between the two forms during the course of the film.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 18, 2013
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