The Empire and Descrimination?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by senseless_apprentice, Apr 21, 2003.

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  1. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Well if we are taking the EU into account then, yes, there is Thrawn and Daala...but I'd like to keep this topic with in the movies if it's possible.

    Don't you think Sidious would view Tyrannus as superior to Maul? Perhaps Sidious made a snap judgment on all species when he saw the the diplomatic and fighting skills of Tyrannus.

    I'm assuming that Sidious was watching the AOTC duel because you can distinctly here his chuckle.



  2. Bravo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 6
    As far as the films go, look at them in order.

    TPM & AOTC- no particular pattern regarding men, women, white, black, human or aliens.

    AOTC- lots and lots of white men are being manufactured.

    ANH, ESB, ROTJ- Empire is entirely made up of white men.


    You don't need to put discrimination in there to make an explanation...


    SomeRandomNerd, if you arew refering to stormtroopers as being clones, just view my latest posts go to "Are Stormtroopers clones?". I am about stormtrooper bumbed out from all that, and the debate still rages although it has died down because everyone has facts that support equally each side. But, you are talking more about Clone Troopers, some surviving to become Stormtroopers later on. It does not answer the question about the ship crews.


    I wonder if the empire descriminated between races of humans?

    I can only recall white imperials. How about you guys?

    p.s. Lando doesn't count!


    As for that, look at the time period in which the OT was made. Lucas was dealing with an issue that was an ongoing debate and if he made one wrong move, he ccould very well have started a very violent (sp?) debate and maybe even riots, very deadly riots.

    Most sadly, from my point of view, GL had to cover his tracks on that and thus was more or less forced to have the Empire and other groups mostly white humans in TPM, AOTC, and probably ESP. III. Personally, if I was GL when I made the OT, I wouldn't care either way really and just made the film with whatever actors I got, the best get the role. But yet again, GL was forced to look at the political side of things at the time. Vietnam was over but the after affects were very strong, Civil Rights movements were still going, and America, more or less at the time, was a battleground for Civil Rights.

    I am not saying this is what GL did, this is what I think he had to do and from my point of view, this is probably something he had to think about more then once.


  3. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    So your saying that GL didn't put in one Black or Asian Imperial because he was afraid of race riots? I doubt it. I think George made the Empire an intolerable authoritarian rigime by making it racist and speciest.

    There is no evidence that suggests the Empire is not racest and speciest except for Maul. I think Sidious was able to look beyond his species since he was humanoid and was exceptionaly skilled.



  4. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
    Correct, Palpatine employed aliens and women if they had exceptional skills. The Neimoidians were just pawns.
  5. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    I never saw an Imperial woman before. Can you point one out? (no EU). The only aliens that the Empire employed were Bounty Hunters and that doesn't really count.

    Vader was using unconventional tactics to reel in an unconventional enemy. Besides, Boba made the find so it was all good with Palpy, if he knew, and if he cared.

    IMHO The Empire is based on the Nazi rigime, not completly, but they share alot of similar traits.

  6. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    I don't think anybody's denying that the Emperor is descriminatory. But the very fact that Sidious had Maul as an apprentice suggests that he won't back down from having a potentially useful (slave) servant just because (s)he's non-human.

    Aunecah
  7. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    so far as i can tell there is nothing that suggests that the empire is a racist government or that palpatine himself is racist. yes he does use alien races as pawns, but doesn't he also use all of naboo as a pawn? were they not his own people? granted there were gungans, but he also placed all of the "human" populace at risk and many died during his plot to become the supreme chancellor. i would think it is more fair to say that palpatine is ruthless and cares not for anyone except himself, unless they are of limited service to him. even all his apprentices were pawns to him, and they were the closest to him.

    before anyone points out to me that all you see in the empire are "white males" remember that until ROTJ we didn't see any aliens in the service of the rebellion either. would that make you think the rebellion was also discriminatory until that point?

    VW
  8. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Thanx for posting, I was beggining to think this thread was dead :)


    so far as i can tell there is nothing that suggests that the empire is a racist government or that palpatine himself is racist.

    How can you say this? Anyone of any importance or rank to Palpatine is a caucasian male. Not once have we seen a black/asian or female Imperial. Furthermore, there were zero, count them, zero aliens in the Empire.

    "i don't think they had wookees in mind when they designed her chewie" -Han

    I think its safer to assume that Palpatine is racist/speciest given the evidence we've seen. There's absolutely no evidence within the films to believe otherwise.

    (Except for Maul, the basis of this thread, which was discussed before)

    before anyone points out to me that all you see in the empire are "white males" remember that until ROTJ we didn't see any aliens in the service of the rebellion either. would that make you think the rebellion was also discriminatory until that point?

    No one assumes the rebellion is discraminatory because in ROTJ there are aliens. Sure if its 1981 you can make that assumption, but as far as I know ROTJ is part of the Star Wars saga, wouldn't you agree?

    Also the rebellion are the good guys, we know they aren't discriminatory because they need all the help they can get!

    Lets just say the Empire isn't discriminatory, why wouldn't they have a diverse upper echelon? Or heck maybe some jawa janitors for christ's sake!

    There is way more evidence pointing to the Empire being discriminatory, and its good enough for me. If the Empire was truely politicaly-correct, we would have seen some aliens in Imperial uniforms on the Death Star. The only alien on the Death Star was Chewie and he was most unwelcome.

    Draw you're own conclusions, but the evidence is right there in the films.

    Have a great day and thanx for posting! :)





  9. RogueWompRat Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2003
    star 4
    For this matter, why do all the officers in the Empire have a British accent?
  10. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    remember that until ROTJ we didn't see any aliens in the service of the rebellion either. would that make you think the rebellion was also discriminatory until that point?

    No? What about YODA and Chewie? :eek:
  11. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Oh yeah I totally forgot! The Rebellion even gave him a snazzy medal.

    The rebellion wouldn't be a rebellion with out the aid of many different species.


    unlike the empire.....
  12. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    No? What about YODA and Chewie?

    i'm sorry but i don't remember yoda or chewie holding an actual rank in the rebellion. especially yoda. he was a jedi master and at no point actually affiliated with the rebellion.

    i think you missed my point. it was that just because you don't see any aliens in the empire does not mean that the motivation behind that was "discrimination." just like the fact that you don't see an abundance of aliens in the rebellion until ROTJ does not mean the rebellion discriminates.

    if you reread my post i state that i think palpatine is not so much a "racist," but a power monger in general. he is oppressing theWHOLE galaxy, aliens and humans alike. i don't see any evidence of genocide toward any alien species do you?

    i can concede to the fact that there is obviously an abundance of white males dominating the imperial officers. but i refuse to think of the empire as racist based on that. there are no bothan only prison camps that we know of. or ewoks being sent into gas chambers. i mean the only planet ever destroyed by a death star was alderan. and it was populated by humans! not aliens!

    palpatine was an equal opportunity oppressor.

    VW

  13. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    i can concede to the fact that there is obviously an abundance of white males dominating the imperial officers. but i refuse to think of the empire as racist based on that.

    Not abundance. ALL of them are white males. One other thing: remember when Vader hired many bounty hunters (some of them not human, I think) during ESB? Remember the reaction of his officers? ("We don't need that scum" - I think one of them says). It's not a proof that the Empire is racist, but I'd say there's strong evidence for it.


    palpatine was an equal opportunity oppressor.

    :D
  14. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    i'm sorry but i don't remember yoda or chewie holding an actual rank in the rebellion.

    So Chewie got a medal for nothing? Oh and I guess he didn't save Leia or turn the tied of the Endor battle? Gimme a break, he's part of the rebellion.


    On topic, obviously this is a difference in perception. I think that if Lucas wanted to present the Empire as a multi-species, multi-race rigime. He would have!


    it was that just because you don't see any aliens in the empire does not mean that the motivation behind that was "discrimination."

    Well what are we supposed to think? There are millions of species out there, some are smarter than humans and the Empire doesn't use one? Not one single alien Imperial and no asian/black or females either!

    .....or ewoks being sent into gas chambers.

    This thread isn't debating whether the Empire practices genocide, its about whether they are an equal-opportunity employer. They are obviously not.


    palpatine was an equal opportunity oppressor.

    I totally agree! But he obviously doesn't have any aliens in his gigantic army.

    The Empire is descriminatory, you know it to be true!

    peace out! :)
  15. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    so far as chewies medal goes- big deal!
    general solo,
    commander skywalker,
    ? chewbacca?
    do you see the pattern?
    why was chewie not given rank? now im not saying the rebellion is racist, what i'm saying is that one can twist the facts any way they want to create a desired point of view. if i wanted i could now say that the rebellion was discriminating against the poor wookie who played just as big a part in destroying the death star was han and luke. get my point yet?

    sensless- show me one quote spoken from anyone in the star wars movies that lables the empire or emporer as having racist motavations. there isn't one. the rebellion was not fighting for equel rights.

    the theory that the emporer was a racist is purely EU and based on the so called "new order" from the star wars novels. coincidently that theory or term was never once mentioned in the star wars movies.

    is the rebellion also racist just because it is lead by monmothma and general nadine and general dodona all white humans? like i said until ROTJ we don't see any aliens as leaders of the rebellion and even then its only one admiral(ackbar).

    i'm sorry but i refuse to believe that GL was trying to convey the empire as a simular organization to nazi's which is basicly what you supporters of this theory are purporting.

    VW



  16. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    commander skywalker,
    ? chewbacca?
    do you see the pattern?


    You're right, Chewie wasn't given a rank. Now lets avoid this issue because it really doesn't have any validity to our argument.

    sensless- show me one quote spoken from anyone in the star wars movies that lables the empire or emporer as having racist motavations. there isn't one. the rebellion was not fighting for equel rights.

    I can't show you a spoken quote proving the fact. Just like I can't give you a spoken quote that confirms Palps=Sidious, even though we know its true! What are we supposed to think? That the Empire merely looked over billions of aliens for no reason? They have to believe humans are superior because if they didn't, they would recruit aliens! Where am I going wrong here?

    the theory that the emporer was a racist is purely EU and based on the so called "new order" from the star wars novels. coincidently that theory or term was never once mentioned in the star wars movies.

    Please do keep the EU out of this. Perhaps you don't know, but I detest the EU. My argument is not founded on something I hate. Its founded on what I've seen and percieved from the movies. Just like you!


    is the rebellion also racist just because it is lead by monmothma and general nadine and general dodona all white humans? like i said until ROTJ we don't see any aliens as leaders of the rebellion and even then its only one admiral(ackbar).

    My point is this.

    Rebellion: Aliens in service, fighting for the common good. (Lando's co-pilot, Chewie, Admiral Ackbar etc)

    Empire: No aliens, zip, none, nil. NOT ONE ALIEN!

    This leads me to believe that the Empire at least believes that humans are superior. Making them discriminatory.

    Just because Mon Motha doesn't stand up and say "The Empire is discriminatory" doesn't mean that it really isn't. Somethings are better meant to be implied.

    If the Empire isn't discriminatory, then why don't we see Alien Imperials? Why not just one? Please don't use the "lack of rubber masks" reason.

    Here's some indirect quotes that support my theory:

    "I don't think they had Wookies in mind when they designed her chewie." -Han

    "Where are you bringing this...thing" -Imperial detention block guard.




















  17. Lord_Ogli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2001
    star 4
    Any one who has read the EU knows that the Empire discriminates against non-humans, GL wouldn't have allowed this if it wasn't what he intended.

    Also look at the guy in the detention block in ep.IV "Where are you taking this" look of discust "Thing"

    The troopers behind him didn't say "shhh, or he'll get the Imperial alien union on you"
  18. J-Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 4
    i'm sorry but i refuse to believe that GL was trying to convey the empire as a simular organization to nazi's which is basicly what you supporters of this theory are purporting.

    The whole rise of Palpatine to power is based on Adolf Hitler. From politician to Chancellor to Dictator.

    One other thing: the stormtroopers are called this way because of the nazi stormtroopers.

    Convinced? No? Well....that's it then. :)
  19. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    senseless_apprentice: I can't show you a spoken quote proving the fact. Just like I can't give you a spoken quote that confirms Palps=Sidious, even though we know its true!

    Actually, you might be sure about that ? but there are people who think that Palpatine and Sidious are actually two very different people. Go to the 3SA forum, and you?ll see a Is Palpatine Sidious (or something like that) thread in there that has quite a few posts to it and has a healthy count for its version number.

    What are we supposed to think? That the Empire merely looked over billions of aliens for no reason? They have to believe humans are superior because if they didn't, they would recruit aliens! Where am I going wrong here?

    Not really. There are many other explanations for not recruiting aliens ? language differences, for one. Imagine a human trooper and a Wookiee commander, in the middle of a heated battle:

    Wookiee: ?GAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGH.?
    Trooper: [stars blankly]

    Pretty soon, the Empire?s going to be talking about translation droids and a bunch of other support equipment. Or what about if our Wookiee and Trooper crash on a planet in the middle of the planet, and the Wookiee?s translation-droid gets destroyed? Now what?

    I, for myself, believe that the Emperor is ? at least partially ? a specist ? but that doesn?t mean that that?s the only explanation for the lack of aliens in the Empire.

    This thread isn't debating whether the Empire practices genocide, its about whether they are an equal-opportunity employer. They are obviously not.

    On the contrary. Considering how he tortured Luke in ROTJ for refusing to stand with him, and how he is a Sith Master, you would think that he would practice genocide on aliens if he is actually a racist ? since we didn?t see any evidence of hateful alien torture in the movies, you can?t say that Emperor is a racist with one hundred percent certainty. It is also, of course, worth noting that if Emperor truly was a racist, then he probably would NOT allow his ?right hand? (Vader) to go struck deals with alien bounty hunters, either.


    "I don't think they had Wookies in mind when they designed her chewie." ?Han

    Which proves what, exactly? Wookiees aren?t the only aliens out there in the galaxy. Maybe the ship and the chairs were designed with Mon Calamarians in mind.

    "Where are you bringing this...thing" -Imperial detention block guard.

    I?ll give you that this sounds most speciest, but just one officer doesn?t equate the entire Empire.

    I think that it is quite possible that the Emperor isn?t actually descriminatory, but rather, like whoever you?re arguing with said (I can?t remember the name, sorry), a power-monger. He oppressed the entire galaxy, not just particular groups of people. If he were a racist, then he probably would be torturing and oppressing aliens more than humans.

    Now that I?ve finished my part of playing the devil?s advocate ? I think that the Emperor was fairly racist and speciest ? just not completely so. :D

    Aunecah
  20. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I always thought it was a widely accepted fact that the Empire was very anti-alien. The only imperials we ever see are humans

    And the one time we see aliens working for the empire, the bounty hunters, they are reffered to as scum

    Not necessarily because they were aliens, I doubt high ranking officers would hold bounty hunters in anything but low regard, but I'm guessing it was a mixture of that and the fact that most were aliens

    Remember Chewbacca was enslaved by the Empire and Han rescued him, which is why Chewbacca owes him a life debt

    The Empire is very much anti-alien IMO
  21. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Actually, you might be sure about that ? but there are people who think that Palpatine and Sidious are actually two very different people......

    Yes I have been to that forum. Its safe to say 99% of people in there believe the truth. Furthermore it seems that most anti-cloners rather distort and confuse the facts for fun. IMHO.

    I, for myself, believe that the Emperor is ? at least partially ? a specist ? but that doesn?t mean that that?s the only explanation for the lack of aliens in the Empire.

    So you believe some one can be half-racist? Maybe Trent Lott tries to fit that criteria, but a racist is a racist and a speciest is a speciest. IMO.

    you would think that he would practice genocide on aliens if he is actually a racist ? since we didn?t see any evidence of hateful alien torture in the movies, you can?t say that Emperor is a racist with one hundred percent certainty. It is also, of course, worth noting that if Emperor truly was a racist, then he probably would NOT allow his ?right hand? (Vader) to go struck deals with alien bounty hunters, either.

    Just because Palpy didn't torture aliens doesn't mean he isn't speciest. Do you really think that every racist person torchers their hated race? I don't see Trent Lott doing that! Also, we don't know that the Emporer knows about Vader's bounty hunters. Furthermore, Boba Fett caught up with the gang of rebels so it doesn't matter!

    If he were a racist, then he probably would be torturing and oppressing aliens more than humans.

    To quote a member of your camp of thought, Palpy is an equal opportunity oppressor. Sure he's not going to go out of his way to torcher an alien just because! What do you think happened to those bothan spies!

    I think that the Emperor was fairly racist and speciest ? just not completely so.

    I dunno about you, but IMO there is no such thing as a "fairly racist" person. They're racist as racist can be, because they are racist!!!!

    On that note, I'm going to rest my hands because they hurt. peace out people :)

    you know it to be true Aunecah!

  22. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    lord_ogli- Any one who has read the EU knows that the Empire discriminates against non-humans, GL wouldn't have allowed this if it wasn't what he intended.

    i'm sorry but the EU has no bearing on the movie universe. GL also allowed a lot of things in the EU that he completely disregarded in the movies, i.e.- stormtroopers as human conscripts. we now know they are clones...ect... ect...

    j-solo- The whole rise of Palpatine to power is based on Adolf Hitler. From politician to Chancellor to Dictator.

    if that were so then we would no doubt see genocide happening to entire races of aliens. we don't, as i've pointed out in my prior posts. all we see is the galaxy as a whole being oppressed, aliens and humans alike.

    senseless- Rebellion: Aliens in service, fighting for the common good. (Lando's co-pilot, Chewie, Admiral Ackbar etc)

    Empire: No aliens, zip, none, nil. NOT ONE ALIEN!

    This leads me to believe that the Empire at least believes that humans are superior. Making them discriminatory.

    Just because Mon Motha doesn't stand up and say "The Empire is discriminatory" doesn't mean that it really isn't. Somethings are better meant to be implied.

    If the Empire isn't discriminatory, then why don't we see Alien Imperials? Why not just one? Please don't use the "lack of rubber masks" reason.


    you are obviously correct that we don't see any alien imperials. i can't dispute that. but think about this. until GL let's us know something we just don't know what we are seeing. we didn't know stormtroopers were all clones until we saw it in epII. for all we know the empires officers are all citizens of naboo, which would make them al human. i mean did we see any humans crewing the war ships of the mon calamari? no, we saw their species. think about the precursors of the star destroyers we saw in epII. they were manned by cloned humans. so doesn't it stand to reason that humans are who would crew these ships?

    "I don't think they had Wookies in mind when they designed her chewie." -Han

    of course they didn't! they had clones of a human in mind.

    "Where are you bringing this...thing" -Imperial detention block guard.

    how do you know that he wouldn't say the same thing about a hairy dirty human? imperials are arrogant to begin with. there is nothing to prove his distaste was fueled by the fact that chewbacca was a wookie. shoot, if it was a smelly wet dog he probably would have said that also.

    on a final note i will say this. i believe that there are plenty of ways to twist things any way you would like to fit a certain opinion. in my prior posts i have even shown how i can twist things done in the rebellion to make them look discriminatory. do i think that one can think the empire is racist based on things seen in the movies? sure why not. however i personally require more than pure opinion to be swayed. i will not assume anything. i will go with what is pure fact. and as of right now the pure fact is that there is nothing that proves 100% that the empire is a racist organization. there are only assumptions.

    VW
  23. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    I think anyone who doesn't accept that the Empire was pro-human and anti-alien has got to be pretty dense

    But really who knows if it was racist against non-white humans, we really don't see enough to know for sure

    Although it reall wouldn't shock me
  24. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    I think anyone who doesn't accept that the Empire was pro-human and anti-alien has got to be pretty dense

    very convincing argument. [face_plain]

    perhaps you should check the forum rules again before making deragatory statements. although i would guess that's much easier than coming up with a convincing point of view.

    VW
  25. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Now now boys..... lets keep it civil

    i.e.- stormtroopers as human conscripts. we now know they are clones...ect... ect...

    Now we don't know that for sure! Its a long time between AOTC and ANH and since the clone's template died on Genosis, its possible they had recruits and conscripts. How can you explain the Imperial Navy Troopers who are obviously not clones?
    IMO its a bigger assumption that all Stormies are clones than too conclude that the Empire is discriminatory.

    you are obviously correct that we don't see any alien imperials. i can't dispute that. but think about this. until GL let's us know something we just don't know what we are seeing.

    So in order for something to be true, George has to explicitly state it in an interview? Do you know how many holes there would be if we left all theories to that qualification? Now, it might be how you judge if something is true or not, and thats great! but it isn't for everybody.

    how do you know that he wouldn't say the same thing about a hairy dirty human? imperials are arrogant to begin with. there is nothing to prove his distaste was fueled by the fact that chewbacca was a wookie. shoot, if it was a smelly wet dog he probably would have said that also.

    We obviously interpret this scene differently but IMO the Imperial is at a loss of words when he tries to identify the supposed prisoner. If it was a dirty human wouldn't he just say, "where are you bringing this...dirty dirty man?" or if it was a dog he could say "get that dirty dog out of here!" Its all open to interpretation and I think thats really the basis of our argument. Perhaps the basis of all arguments in the JC! I personaly believe he showed a general distate for Chewie because he isn't a human. Its probably the first alien he's scene in a long time and a scary one at that!

    however i personally require more than pure opinion to be swayed. i will not assume anything. i will go with what is pure fact. and as of right now the pure fact is that there is nothing that proves 100% that the empire is a racist organization. there are only assumptions.

    Sure I hold an opinion, but it wasn't swayed by any one else. I took it from the movie. You are correct when you say there is no 100% proof, but please don't call our theory an assumption because its more than an educated guess (hypothesis), we've seen evidence for our theory and thats why it is.

    Nonetheless, you have brought up some very good points and I thank you for that. :)



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