The Empire and Descrimination?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by senseless_apprentice, Apr 21, 2003.

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  1. vw_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2002
    star 4
    Now we don't know that for sure! Its a long time between AOTC and ANH and since the clone's template died on Genosis, its possible they had recruits and conscripts. How can you explain the Imperial Navy Troopers who are obviously not clones?
    IMO its a bigger assumption that all Stormies are clones than too conclude that the Empire is discriminatory.


    i would agree with you but i have the epII dvd and i have heard with my own ears during the commentary GL saying that the stormtroopers are clones of jango. hence the scene where jango hits his head while going up the ramp into slave one. it was meant as a nod to the scene in epIV when the stormie hits his head on the door. stormtroopers have the jango clumsy gene. that is the gospel according to GL not me.
    as to the navy troops that are not clones, well they are just that, not clones. that's why they don't wear helmets with masks. but the stormtroopers most definatly are.

    back to the main topic though. just so you know i do not discount the theory that the empire is discriminatory. notice in my last post i said "do i think that one can think the empire is racist based on things seen in the movies? sure why not." i see the evidense and admitted i can see that point of view. i just personally require more proof. like i said i'm more of the school of thought that believes that palpatine is just a power monger. he is out for no one but himself. even his officers are just pawns. he allows vader to kill them at will. even vader says that palpatine is "not as forgiving as i am." to me that's not someone who is out to promote the well being of his species over any other. he is just out for himself. all others, humans and aliens alike, are just pieces on his galactic chess board.

    now if you want to talk about real discrimination in the SW universe, talk about poor droids. now those poor guys really can't get a break. ;)
  2. ForceHeretic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2002
    star 4
    perhaps you should check the forum rules again before making deragatory statements. although i would guess that's much easier than coming up with a convincing point of view.

    The arguments have been presented, I've already posted my arguments and didn't feel like repeating myself. And if you don't agree that they're anti-alien you would have to be pretty dense, just look at some other posts and look at the movies

    We never see a single alien in the Empire while in the Republic and Alliance we see many, this contrast is there for a reason
  3. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    As for what George says, I do believe him about the clones. I believe that most stormtroopers are clones. But I also don't believe that they are exclusively clones. If they are, they'd be old and feeble by the time of ROTJ....they'd probably look worse than the emporer because they age twice as fast. Thus they need recruits!

    My evidence is in the Imperial Navy Troopers, they aren't clones. They are recruits!

    back to the main topic though. just so you know i do not discount the theory that the empire is discriminatory. notice in my last post i said "do i think that one can think the empire is racist based on things seen in the movies? sure why not."

    So you agree that there is enough evidence to conclude that the Empire is discriminatory? GOOD! Thats how I feel! Do I believe its set in stone? Of course not! George could always change his mind. But until then, in the oppinion of most of us. The Empire is a discriminatory organization.

    he is just out for himself. all others, humans and aliens alike, are just pieces on his galactic chess board.

    I couldn't agree more!!! All I'm saying is that he won't let any aliens in on his galactic control. Yes I know his officers and troopers are just pawns, but they do benefit from his control of the galaxy more than a regular alien on a controlled world.

    wouldn't you agree?

    and yes, the droids do need a robotic Al Sharpton cuz its getting pretty bad.


  4. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    You can't presume anything in SW. Unless GL said that the Empire is anti-alien - please show me in the direction, I would love to see it :) - you can twist what you see in the movies in any direction that you want.

    (I still think that the Empire is anti-alien. I'm just saying that it's possible for people to think otherwise - without being dense. :))

    Aunecah
  5. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    The only person that used the term "dense" was ForceHeretic. I don't share his view. I do believe that its a bit far fetched to not believe the Empire is discriminatory.

    People make the mistake of thinking that the Empire can only be discriminatory if they kill/torcher or single out aliens because they view them as inferior. This is untrue. The Empire is discriminatory because they only allow one species, and one color to work for them. Since they are the ruling party, those who have a job in it are beneficiaries of the regime. While every other race and species is left out to fend for themselves.

    It'd be like if the US army only recruited white males. Sure their not killing black/hispanics/asians but those groups don't have the chance to benefit from the army.

    In short, a regime doesn't have to systematicly single out different races/species for harassment to be discriminatory. The very fact that they don't allow diversity in their ranks, qualifies them as a Descriminatory rigime.

    questions? comments? discuss! :)
  6. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    I think that it is quite possible that the Emperor isn?t actually descriminatory, but rather, like whoever you?re arguing with said (I can?t remember the name, sorry), a power-monger. He oppressed the entire galaxy, not just particular groups of people. If he were a racist, then he probably would be torturing and oppressing aliens more than humans. >>

    Good point. He manipulated Padme, Anakin, Valorum, Bail Organa, etc...

    In theory it's possible that, as I like to believe, Palpatine believed there were two types of beings in the galaxy...Palpatine, and everyone else. He was interested in power above all, and if that meant allying with a faction of powerful potential supporters within politics and the military and adopting an anti-alien policy in order to convince them to go along (Palps would prefer somethign subtle like that than holding a lightsaber to someone's head, methinks) was more expeditious than adopting an "equal opportunity" Empire, then it's possible he could make that official policy without personally caring one way or another.

    Now, that's just me, and not supported by canon so far, but I don't think it's horribly implausible.

    Also, how much of the Empire do we actually see? The bridge of a Star Destroyer or a tiny portion of a Death Star in a gigantic vessel with tens or hundreds of thousands of officers and men on board, most likely. If cloning is prevalent in the Empire (makes sense if you need a lot of well-trained personell quickly, and consider the size of the army and fleet constructed by the Republic/Empire in only 22 years)

    Another explanation might be simple ergonomics. Would it be feasable to design a fighter cockpit which could be used equally well by a human and a 10-foot tall species with three compound eyes, a prehensile tail, four arms, and who communicated by telepathy? Okay, that's an extreme example, but it would make sense that if humans were the largest species in terms of population, the Emperor's military hardware might be designed around them.

    <<Now that I?ve finished my part of playing the devil?s advocate ? I think that the Emperor was fairly racist and speciest ? just not completely so. >>

    I agree. I don't think women or nonhumans (especially near-human species) being in the empire would be *impossible*

    -Tim

  7. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    If he were a racist, then he probably would be torturing and oppressing aliens more than humans.

    woah hold on there so sonnyjim, did you read my post from above? here it is again.

    People make the mistake of thinking that the Empire can only be discriminatory if they kill/torcher or single out aliens because they view them as inferior. This is untrue. The Empire is discriminatory because they only allow one species, and one color to work for them. Since they are the ruling party, those who have a job in it are beneficiaries of the regime. While every other race and species is left out to fend for themselves.


    However you do have a point that it would be way more convenient for the Empire to be all human sense the backbone of there military are human clones. I agree, but this policy of only humans goes farther than you're average foot soldier, there are zero aliens in the Empire. Not one. If they weren't descriminatory, there would be a bunch IMO.

    <<Now that I?ve finished my part of playing the devil?s advocate ? I think that the Emperor was fairly racist and speciest ? just not completely so. >>

    I agree. I don't think women or nonhumans (especially near-human species) being in the empire would be *impossible*


    You are playing devils advocate because you know its true! Furthermore, how can some one be fairly racist? When you hear a guy cracking racist jokes, is he just a fairly racist person? I think he's a racist.

    You see? We actually agree! pretty much....

    peace :)


  8. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    senseless_apprentice: No, I'm playing the devil's advocate to show that it's possible to interpret the lack of humans in the Empire in many different ways. I believe that's because the Emperor is fairly racist - but not completely so, because if he sees talent in an alien, then he won't simply throw the person away (read: Darth Maul). Others could believe otherwise.

    You could argue that if the Emperor was completely racist, then we'd see a lot of alien genocide - especially considering the fact that he's a Sith. Because we don't - I'm inclined to say that he isn't completely racist. :)

    Aunecah
  9. Zethlin_Maximus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2003
    star 4
    GL based a lot of the concept of the Empire on the Third Reich. Look to the Nazi idealism to find your answers. How many women did you see in Nazi ranks? How many black people did you see in Nazi uniform? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it definitely is a duck!
  10. Bravo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 6
    I will admitt that IO do beleive GL did base the Empire off of the Nazi regime. Although, I still hold to the fact that GL, at one point, had to make a decision about the political factor with races at the time.

    A key fact is that the Nazi regime employed woman in their military ranks, the Empire doesn't. I think GL had a choice: exclude one race from acting and allow all others or exclude two races that have the poloitical spot light?

    I am not saying GL is racists, but I am sure, as I stated before, he had to run across this line of thought more then once. Everything is political, and I think that is what a lot of people are forgetting here. Reguardless of what the Empire is and what it supports, GL had political reasons behind his acting choices. If he didn't, why didn't we see more, excuse my choice of words, blacks in the movies? What, we saw two, Lando and the pilot in the A-Wing who got blown apart after the shield generator blew apart on the Star Destroyer in ROTJ.

    If GL didn't have political reasons behind his acting choices, weather by choice or not, then why didn't we see more blacks among the Rebel Alliance? Yet again, sorry for my choice of words, no offense intended to anyone.




    How can you say this? Anyone of any importance or rank to Palpatine is a caucasian male. Not once have we seen a black/asian or female Imperial.

    How about Mara Jade? Although she was in the EU, she did have more power then even the Grand Admirals. As seen in Star Wars: Galactic Battle Grounds, her only rival for being second-command next to Emperor Palpatine was Darth Vader. Mara Jade did have power, enough power probably to destroy the Rebellion if Palpatine had sense and let her do it. If you are talking about the movies, then no, the Empire had no woman with that kind of power.




    As for the Nazi regime, look at the facts:

    stormtroopers: SS troops

    AT-AT/AT-ST Walkers: Nazi tanks

    Imperial officers: high boots, uniform, and Imperial officers never saluted, they always smacked their feet together, like what Nazi officers and soldiers did

    Empire: As stated before; political, etc.


    You get the picture. The Empire was based off of two major things: classical good against evil and the Nazi regime
  11. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Aunecah:
    I believe that's because the Emperor is fairly racist - but not completely so, because if he sees talent in an alien, then he won't simply throw the person away (read: Darth Maul). Others could believe otherwise.

    How can you say that some one is...fairly racist? Theres two types of racist people. Outspoken racists, and Closet racists. It doesn't matter which one you are, you're still racist! I see that some one has finally brought up Maul, he was a humanoid and the only exception to Palpatine's blatant descrimination. Why then, after Maul's death, do we never see another Alien holding a position as close to him as that? I'm not talking about Sly Moore or the aliens he has to manipulate in his rise to power, I'm talking about the EMPIRE! There are no Aliens that benefit from the Empire's rule in the OT. (Bounty Hunters excluded, thats Vaders gig)

    How about Mara Jade? Although she was in the EU, she did have more power then even the Grand Admirals.

    Sorry bud, but Mara Jade has no signifigance to this thread. Because if we look at the EU, theres alot of Aliens in the Empire which weren't in the movies. This being the movie forum, the EU is irrelevant.

    If GL didn't have political reasons behind his acting choices, weather by choice or not, then why didn't we see more blacks among the Rebel Alliance?

    I really don't think Lucas got to political about starwars when he was casting. Remember, these movies started in England, so most of the supporting actors were white Englishmen.

    I do agree that the Empire was fashioned after the Nazi regime. Any body who cannot see the resemblance doesn't know their history or his terribly misguided. IMO.


    peace out people. :)
  12. Aunecah_Skywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2002
    star 5
    How can you say that some one is...fairly racist? Theres two types of racist people. Outspoken racists, and Closet racists. It doesn't matter which one you are, you're still racist! I see that some one has finally brought up Maul, he was a humanoid and the only exception to Palpatine's blatant descrimination. Why then, after Maul's death, do we never see another Alien holding a position as close to him as that? I'm not talking about Sly Moore or the aliens he has to manipulate in his rise to power, I'm talking about the EMPIRE! There are no Aliens that benefit from the Empire's rule in the OT. (Bounty Hunters excluded, thats Vaders gig)

    Well, here we go. There are few yes or no type ideologies in life ? and racism is a complex enough topic that you can't simply say (IMHO) that you are either a racist or you are not, and that if you are a racist, you either publish it openly or keep it within yourself. There can be many explanations to why there aren't any women or aliens in the Empire:

    Aliens ? perhaps after Darth Maul got killed, Palpatine decided that aliens would all be like Maul and hence didn't want to risk wasting so much time and investment on them. Is that racism? From a certain point of view, yes. From another point of view, no. Something happened to Palpatine in the past, he applied it (wrongly) to the macro-environment, and came up with the (wrong) conclusion that he would run a much higher risk of wasting his resources on aliens. That's a wrong supposition, definitely, but it isn't racist because he isn't discriminating them based on race ? he is discriminating them based on his personal experiences.

    Women ? perhaps Padmé stands up to him and nearly threatens his power in EpIII and from then on he holds a deep hatred for all women. Does that mean that he is discriminating women? From a certain point of view, yes ? but from another, no. He is discriminating them from his own personal experience.

    A woman who is raped is not likely to hold men in a very positive light (IMHO). That doesn't mean she's discriminating against them.

    Anakin may hate aliens because of Watto did to him and he doesn't want any aliens in his government because they remind him of Watto ? that doesn't make him racist (not necessarily, I should say, because, after all, my argument is that everything is colored by your point of view ;)).

    Aunecah
  13. Bravo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 6
    Sorry bud, but Mara Jade has no signifigance to this thread. Because if we look at the EU, theres alot of Aliens in the Empire which weren't in the movies. This being the movie forum, the EU is irrelevant.

    Opps.
  14. senseless_apprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2002
    star 2
    Palpatine decided that aliens would all be like Maul and hence didn't want to risk wasting so much time and investment on them.

    If Palpatine decides the employment of aliens based on one humanoid zabrak, thats descrimination. Sure you can say from a certain point of view its not racism but think of it this way.

    My boss, when she was 13 she was raped by five black men. Now this is true, and now she hates black men with a vengeance. Now what you're saying is that from a certain point of view, its not racism. I disagree, hate breeds hate and it never solves anything.

    but it isn't racist because he isn't discriminating them based on race ? he is discriminating them based on his personal experiences.

    Well if we analyse his personal experiences he's judging every species other than his own on one cocky zabrak apprentice. Sure its from his experience, but its still racism and descrimination!

    I realize you're trying to play devils advocate, and you're doing a good job. But would it be okay if I hated dogs because I got bit when I was 10? I've been done wrong by other races but I don't hate their race, because that would be stupid. (stupid= racism)

    (not necessarily, I should say, because, after all, my argument is that everything is colored by your point of view ).

    Ha! I almost missed that little jab! The only argument thats colored here is yours my friend, because I don't see any! Be safe and have fun! peace. :)
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