ST The Empire in the ST

There´s also the head-bumping thing that GL made a point of.

 

I am not sure what is unrealistic about the "fairy tale ending". Gadaffi's regime sure went down quickly after he was killed. Therefore it is completely reasonable that the Empire collapsed shortly after Palpatine's death.

Storywise the Empire was shown as defeated and utterly humiliated (the Ewoks even use stormtrooper helmets as musical instruments). I don't think it can ever return as a credible threat, no matter how many planets it destroys.

 

Darth_Pevra, it seems that the fans hate happy endings.

 

I'm a fan and I like happy endings. But I also like sad endings, and I like foreboding endings.

I don't think I could handle 9 happy endings in a 9 part story though

 

Or change. That pesky change thing, we hate it! Lets bring back everything from the OT.

 

Well, for one there's a difference between the way a single country and nation can collapse after a regime and the way a huge Empire collapses. The Roman Empire had dozens of Emperors murdered over the course of it's history, many civil wars and uprisings and self-proclaimed rulers and it endured for centuries. The comparisons between a single country and a vast empire are not really fair ones.

And I did say that it is possible for an overnight collapse to happen even to a galactic Empire, just that I personally prefer the more prolonged decline approach

 

The worst offender is "Sith is an idea". No, it's not an idea. It's a sect.

StoneRiver, I was talking about a happy ending for the saga more than I was talking about happy endings for individual movies or trilogies.

 

And sects are based on certain specific ideas.
I don't really see what's your big problem with the fact that Sith path is a philosophy just like the Jedi path.

 

And there is also a difference between a spacefaring Empire and ancient Rome. One has instant communication etc. and the other has ... well. The comparison isn't really a fair one.

 

Jedi and Sith are both far more than philosophies.

 

Remnant that can't do much until a charismatic leader takes charge and wins a big enough battle to really get things going again (perhaps in a reversal of ANH it's the New Empire that wins the day by the end of the first film). Or any other number of things. I honestly think Disney would care less about how the Empire is back and more about the simple fact that the Empire is back. I think it's kind of interesting that so many fan theories are situated around the return of the Sith when at the same time so many fans yearn for a return to the spirit or essence of the OT or however you want to put it. To me the OT is much more Empire focused than Sith focused. When I watch the OT as an isolated story, I actually think it's a bit jarring for the Emperor to be revealed as a cackling wicked witch type. Not that the throne room scenes aren't effective, but there's still something about the emperor that doesn't quite mesh with the atmosphere I got from ANH/ESB. Not to mention that the word "Sith" isn't even used in the OT (unless I'm forgetting something). Shadows of the Sith was a rumored title, but I think Disney would prefer Shadows of the Empire if only the latter hadn't already been taken.

 

They are based on philosophies and certain ideas. Someone is identified as Sith not just because he can spew lightning and wield a red saber, but because he follows a certain set of beliefs, ideas, practices and adheres to a certain philosophy. Being a good guy who can move objects around and build a blue saber does not automatically make you a Jedi. If you are self trained and have nothing to do with the Jedi Order you are not a Jedi.
If you constantly disagree with something I said and feel the need to bring it up multiple times, I would very much like to hear your views on it, but you're going to have to elaborate a bit more than just disagreeing and posting five word replies

The system of government is similar. Based on a totalitarian, almost god-like ruler, who appoints governors to personally oversee sectors (provinces) and enforce his authority by any means necessary. The speed of communications and the advances in technology do, of course, play a part in it, but not something that would alter the course of events all that much, only speed them up. When an Emperor dies without an heir, pretenders rise from every crevice of the system and rebellions flare up in many provinces. A certain someone then gains power, support from key figures, suppresses these rebellions and reinstates the Imperial rule. This, also, doesn't happen overnight. Such a conflict can rage for years.
Again, I am not saying that this has to be the case, but it is certainly a possible scenario in GFFA, of course on a much larger scale.
There is also the already mentioned example of Macedonian Successor Empires after Alexander. That's probably even closer to the situation of Palpatine's Empire, because of the timeframe involved in their respective rules and the cult of personality around which it was based.

 

Yes, it can happen, but the movies themselves suggest otherwise. The party scenes at the end of ROTJ are symbolic and are meant to convey that the war is over. Also a total collapse of the empire wouldn't necessarily be a fairy tale ending as it is a pretty realistic possibility.

Maybe we'll see an imperial remnant but I hope its role will be much different. It could be a less brutal regime and might even become an ally of the Republic under the right circumstances.

But I disagree on principle that technology doesn't play a huge role. In fact I think its role can't be overstated! Whether or not part A and part B of a regime are connected can mean a completely different outcome of a civil war.

 

Well yeah, it is a pretty realistic possibilty, as well.
That's what I think is the good part about using the Empire in ST - they can really do anything with it and it can still make sense.

It's still there in some way? Sure, it can be done.
It's a Remnant that controls a small portion of the galaxy? Yep.
It's still a powerful force under new leadership and in a state of Cold War with the Republic? Why not!
It's totally and absolutely gone since it's been 30+ years since ROTJ? Of course, it makes sense.

And so on, and so on

 

In fact, WWI was partially caused by the development of the technology needed to fight it.

 

That is true... However, for the comparrison to be comparrable, one would have to hypothesise what would have happended to Rome if the Carthaginians had destroyed Rome's fleet, raised the city of Rome to the ground and killed it's leaders (all in the same day) I'm pretty sure Rome would not have survived that (with the assumption that, in victory, the Carthaginians wouldn't have destroyed themselves with internal in-fighting).

 

I prefer that both the Empire and the Sith die with Palpatine.

 

Right. Re-instate the Senate, recall the Senators, disband the regional Governors. Have a free and fail election or a referendum on the role and influence of money in politics. The Jedi Order is either re-instated, restructured, reformed or all three.

 

When did the Rebellion raze Corcusant to the ground? There was just some citizens there having an illegal party, nothing more... so nothing is stopping an army of Stormtroopers and All Terrain Walkers charging them minutes after that scene from RotJ special edition if Lucas wanted it so to set up the Sequel Trilogy. A few well placed shots from a Star Destroyer would send those guys packing too... just look at what happened in Iran a few years back after they rigged their last election. The people marched on the streets in protest, camera took tons of iconic shots, then the army showed up with helicopters and machine guns... there's been no protests on that scale there sense then and Egypt just proved the military can act without a leader, so what that the top two are dead and a fleet is gone... all this means is they get a promotion in their pov.

Next off that was just a single fleet of the Empires, they had hundreds if not thousands more. Rome lost fleets and many a legions all at once before (where do you think the phrash 'give me back my legions' comes from other than a roman emperor). Plus historically half of Rome survived their down fall, the Byzantium Empire (romes eastern half) lasted a thousand years longer than Rome... and it took gun powerder to defeat them. Empires endure in some form or another historically for the most part, look at Russia, they still have huge influence in there part of the world and still manipulate the political atmosphere in there firmer satalite nations, even though the USSR fell 20 years ago.

 

I have a feeling the problem of corruption won't be so easily solved either. The Empire was able to arise because the Republic was in decay, so all those issues will still need to be dealt with. I hope they can find a way to deal with politics in a way that's more palatable for the audience in the ST, because it would really be a betrayal of the story to drop the ball by skirting that element of it all. To me, this trilogy should be largely about rebuilding the Republic and the Jedi Order in such a way as to finally overcome the problems they faced in the past to which the Empire was presented as a solution.

 

You don't need a dictatorship to act on an invasion. Perhaps the ST can show that.

 

The films, not EU, show thousands of people partying in the streets of Coruscant. The clear implication is that Coruscant has fallen. There is also nothing in the films, other than Solo's line about the command ship, that alludes to the notion that Palpatine's forces are elsewhere - this was a plan to destroy the rebellion after all. Also, Palpatine refers to "the fleet" not 'a fleet'. In this context, "the fleet" means just that i.e. the fleet of the Empire. Both the Roman Republic and Roman Empire never suffered a defeat (and survived) as calamitous as Palpatine's/the Empire's defeat at Endor (based on the assumption that the Coruscant fell and that the majority of their forces were destroyed or captured).

Now of course, as you state, KK and JJ could simply ignore these facets and show Coruscant still under Empire control etc. However, based on what's in the films to date, I don't think that's either logical or likely (that's not to say it won't hapoen the way you describe).

Re. your quote. "Give me back my legions' is actually seen as a mistranslation (well most of the best scholars believe it to be ) of the original Latin of a quote credited to Augustus. Most scholars believe he stated "eagles" and not legions ('eagles' being the standards of the legions which were lost in Germany... and a standard being lost was seen as a very bad omen... particularly to the very superstitious Romans).

 

I doubt what was left of the Empire had the desire or competence to stop the party on Coruscant. In fact, I'd bet plenty of Imperials hated Palpatine.

 

Very true...