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ST The Empire in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by purplerain, Oct 2, 2013.

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  1. loki41872

    loki41872 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 13, 2002


    I am kind of evil.
     
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  2. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Well no offense to ANY of you, but I am NOT interested in getting a massage with you! Sorry!
     
  3. thisguyisnotajedi

    thisguyisnotajedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 16, 2014
    Booo!
     
  4. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    I think some people actually want the bad guys to win in SW.
     
  5. loki41872

    loki41872 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 13, 2002

    The Empire Strikes back is my favorite one. And the favorite of many others. And keeps winning all those polls.

    Seems that people like it when the bad guys win. It's different from every other movie made.
     
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  6. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    I hate when the bad guys win except when it ties into the bad guys loosing later on.
     
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  7. Anakin's Daddy

    Anakin's Daddy Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 13, 2002
    (1) I agree.
    (2) Yes the Empire will look pretty much like it used to
    (3) Yes they will, and they'll infiltrate the Empire. The Sith will be back and it won't ruin ROTJ or Anakin's story. Anakin's story was already ruined when he turned into freaking Darth Vader. You simply cannot have Jedi without Sith.

    I'm evil too. [face_skull]
     
  8. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    What about all the millenia in between the formation of the Jedi and the formation of the Sith?

    I'd rather live in a galaxy with neither Jedi nor Sith than live in a galaxy with both Jedi and Sith.

    I'll say this: I don't care if the Sith and/or Empire appear but I do care how the Sith and/or Empire appear.
     
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  9. Artoo-Dion

    Artoo-Dion Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 9, 2009
    There's a reason there's not a rush to make a film telling that riveting story.
     
  10. thatguyswise74

    thatguyswise74 Jedi Padawan

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    May 31, 2014
    I hope it will be the Inquisitors who return to the Core when they learn that Vader and the Emperor are dead and quickly assume control of the Empire.

    Would love to see some sort of truncated timeline of scenes that takes us through the last 30 years that includes the Inquisitors arriving on Endor, pulling what's left of Vader's mask out of the ashes and vowing revenge.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I would rather have a cartoon that tells the story directly after the events of ROTJ then flash backs.
     
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  12. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

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    May 21, 2014

    Jedi Sith Stormtroopers
     
  13. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    May 25, 2000
    As I've said before, the Alliance threw everything they had at the Empire, took a serious pounding, and almost lost. Meanwhile, the Empire could easily devolve into warlordism and "mini-Empires." Returning Sith could easily take advantage of "Joe Sentient's" weariness of the chaos and longing for a time when at least the shuttles ran on time.

    Returning Sith could also represent a threat so fundamental that the factions cross the Godzilla Threshold, casting aside their differences to work together.
     
  14. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Are you suggesting the Sith and Jedi join up against the remaining Empire? Or are you suggesting the Empire and Jedi/Alliance join together to beat the Sith? I was confused.

    Why not both? Why not the Sith AND the remaining Empire join up with the Jedi/Alliance to defeat a power greater than all of them?
     
  15. CairnsTony

    CairnsTony Force Ghost star 5

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    May 7, 2014
    I'm pretty sure JM means the latter. I've already suggested a couple of times that this may be what we get. I've a hunch the Sith may use the Empire to build their power base and then discard them like yesterday's news.
     
  16. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    I would like that. Because it makes the empire still apart of the plot but not the main antagonist.
     
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  17. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    It puts a purpose to having the Empire if not for the sake of the Empire itself. It shows the rebuilding of the Republic from all of the entities of government (or lack thereof) in the galaxy.

    Plus it sets up potential for something completely different if there is ever a 4th trilogy.
     
  18. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    Good points. Id like to ask a question though though. What if they just pulled an TOR and the true sith empire came out of hiding would you hate it or like it?
     
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  19. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian Future Films Rumor Naysayer star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Correct. Plus, the last straw to cause the remnant to team up with the Alliance would be their "sudden yet inevitable betrayal" ;) by the Sith.
     
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  20. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    I don't know what TOR is, but I think that most people assume that some sort of past Sith would likely rise, whether it be Plagueis who didn't die, Bane who is resurrected, or something. I'd be fine.Personally, I like the idea of unveiling an evil from a planet that seems to be a hotbed for resources that will help struggling worlds that never got their feet back on the ground after the Empire. Then a deal is made-kind of a "resurrect me and I will help you become rich" type of thing but more complicated.
     
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  21. Redimet

    Redimet Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 2, 2014
    TOR is the old republic mmo
     
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  22. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    I think a strong theme for the ST might be reintegration of old elements, which would suggest that whatever Imperial remnants exist should be brought back into the family fold of the Republic.

    However, I don't think I want this to take the form of the Imperials joining our heroes to defeat a greater enemy. Why? Because the Imperials are totalitarians. They shouldn't be represented in a heroic light -- ever. Doing so suggests to people that totalitarianism can be just in the right context.

    So how to reintegrate Imperials without unconsciously validating an unjust system?

    You have their own totalitarian projects destroy them or self-destruct. Then the forces of democracy, the Alliance and Jedi, simply step in to save the people forced to live under Imperial systems. The Imperial troops are routed by some force they helped to create. Their people are vulnerable and must be saved, and then reintegrated back into the Republic -- but no totalitarian figures should be validated in the process. That is, unless they denounce their system, or defect. That's the only way in my estimation any "heroic Imperials" should be saved and re-appropriated.

    Absolutely no Imperials that are true Imperials should be shown to be heroic, even if in reality they might be. All that kind of misguided realism does is put forth the belief that totalitarians aren't so bad. That's not the kind of message movies should send, IMO.
     
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  23. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    Couple of things.

    First, your synopsis would make it seem more centered on the Imperials as the story. That's not what most people see SW as.The Jedi described above are pretty much the Red Cross, coming in with humanitarian aid while the focus is on the Imperials cannibalizing each other. So you either (a) have the Imperials taking each other out which would take focus away from the characters who are supposed to be the focus or (b) you have the Imperials take out the main villains WITH the heroes.

    Second, Palpatine was the true dictator of the Empire. Sure, you had Tarkin and others who weren't shown, but from their point of view, they were acting as a re-named Republic with complete control BUT only at the whim of Palpatine. They saw Rebels as nuisances trying to start trouble. Thirty years later, anyone from the OT who was in leadership under that regime would be in their 70's, 80's, or 90's. You have a new generation and this faction would look very different. If they DO hold the same beliefs and power, it's back to square one and we have the OT all over again. It was good, but it's time to move forward.

    Therefore, I am not sure how this would really be able to be incorporated into the SW world and still be SW in essence.
     
  24. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 30, 2012
    That's a pretty sweeping statement on your part, and I'm not sure where you come by your information. Certainly we know you don't want Imperials to play much of a role in the ST, but it doesn't mean others don't see an important role for them. In fact, your recent poll suggests otherwise -- that most people here view an important role for the Imperials in the ST.

    Also, what I gave above was not a story synopsis, as you seem to think, but a general idea of how Imperials might work in the overall theme and plot of the ST, if reintegration were to be a main theme. I think the Jedi and our heroes would obviously play a center role, and probably the Sith, or someone like the Sith, with the Imperials playing an important part.

    I don't think the Red Cross analogy makes much sense at all. I think if Imperial Forces were defeated by some greater power, or even destroyed each other, then the people in their systems would be in danger of attack. The Jedi and Alliance/Republic forces would have to come in fighting to save them. Or alternatively, we just hear at some point in a quick line or two of dialogue that the Republic has reintegrated these desperate systems back into the family.

    It's a bad idea to have Imperials fighting with the Republic and Jedi because it's like showing Nazis joining the Americans in a common cause. It's just not something you want to depict if you're anti-totalitarian or anti-fascist.

    What would be necessary is to show some of the Imperials disliking totalitarian thought and beliefs. Only then could you depict them as heroes at some point.


    I'm not sure why people think it's important to show that most Imperials are really good guys/gals. I've noticed people have a fascination for this sort of portrayal on these boards, which I would guess is out of a misguided valuing of realism that thinks even in a fantasy-mythological mode one must show that not everyone is evil. Or perhaps it's because people are uncomfortable with the West's own Imperial tendencies, and want to pretend that soldiers have no idea what injustices they commit (I'm certain all soldiers know what collateral damage is or that all wars are not fought for just reasons, but usually economic reasons). However, I don't agree that it's important at all to show totalitarianism in a fair light. It's an unjust system and it should be represented so.

    If there are any good Imperials, they should be shown to be defectors, not honorable soldiers who simply follow orders. There is such a thing as free will. If a stormtrooper is ordered to kill innocents, like Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, they have the choice to resist. If they don't, they are as culpable for atrocities as leaders like Tarkin and Palpatine who command them.

    Also, I'm not a fan of this idea that totalitarians have mysteriously become nice people simply because older totalitarians have died. This is a weird kind of cause and effect that ignores that Imperials are all indoctrinated with a powerful ideology. Why have the leaders become lovers of democracy over the past 30 years?


    This conclusion doesn't follow from your points. If we have the OT all over again, then we don't have SW? In fact, most people I've seen in this forum believe that SW is usually about clear depictions of good and evil. You're arguing for showing totalitarians in a grey light. I don't think that is very SW at all (not that I mind greyness in general).
     
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  25. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

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    May 2, 2013
    That's what the OT was. They were called Rebels. The in-fighting was called the Rebellion. It was successful.

    You made it sound as if the Empire would be fighting each other and those caught in the cross-fire would need assistance. If part of the Empire defects and joins the former Allies and the Jedi, it's no different than the Rebellion. It's just more....rebellion. Maybe I'm missing something that isn't translating properly through the internet.

    I agree only if the "Imperials" were the same as they were in the OT. I don't see that at all. I see it as separate worlds struggling to hang on, desperate to cling onto hope and obtain resources for their people following the collapse (or mostly collapsed) Empire can no longer provide the basic needs and there's no central government stepping in to do so. Japan changed dramatically by 20-30 years after WWII and now they are among our best allies.

    Again, the Imperials of the OT will have been long gone. A new generation comes along. Things are not all hunky-dory, but it's not the war of the OT-maybe a Cold War. SW isn't the real world. We saw Anakin redeemed even though he murdered little children JUST because he saved his own son. I have no idea at all where you were going with the West and injustices, etc.

    Nobody's trying to show the evil Empire as good. But if we have the same ol' Empire, as evil as they were before and the Alliance can't beat them, then the new baddies should be the ones to wipe out the Empire altogether. Better yet, leave the Empire defeated as we WERE shown at the end of ROTJ. As I've said dozens of times, continue to have worlds that are struggling and not completely in line with the Alliance, but not the Empire etiher. Maybe they question whether they were better off with an Empire. Now, some of them want to create their own regime. A New Empire of sorts.
     
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