main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST The Empire in the ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by purplerain, Oct 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    Answer: Sith Holocrons. Some evil Force-sensitive finds one of those, and on time he re-learns all the Sith philosophy and techniques.

    The same could happen to the Jedi Order, but I don't think those new Light-Side-of-the-Force users would be real Jedi. The Jedi were a lot about discipline and responsability and obedience, about fulfilling their role within the Republic and following the instructions of the Council...it would be weird for a dude in Backwater Planet Nº 345678965 to find an Holocron, learn all about the Jedi and impose upon himself (or herself) all those responsabilities and duties and rules when he or she is just a person who has found and studied an old artifact.

    I mean, if I were a Force-sensitive in the SW Universe and I found an Holocron I would teach myself to cheat at pazak, to predict the winner in pod races and to predict the behaviour of the stock market; maybe I would teach myself to use the Force to navigate the Hyperspace and to find precious metals in asteroids. I would probably learn how to heal people, and how to prolong my own life. But I wouldn't renounce love, leave my family and my worldly possessions, build a lightsaber, dress in a brown kimono and proclaim myself the defender of the Republic.
     
  2. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    1. If I was a Sith, I wouldn't record my philosophy and techniques in a holocron. I don't want someone using that knowledge to challenge me.

    2. (Opinion Alert) Finding a holocron would be an extremely lame villain origin, even lamer than a secret apprentice.
     
    nightangel and Hoggsquattle like this.
  3. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009

    No, Jedi AND Sith need a teacher. You can't learn everything from books.

    And why would a "self taught Sith" be a real Sith but a "self taught Jedi" not be a real Jedi?

    Both Orders have aspects for which guidance is needed that only a real teacher can provide.

    If only a Holocron was needed, then why did Obi-Wan not have to pass on to Luke in case either he or Yoda died too soon. And why where Bariss Offee and Pong Krell so interested in finding Darth Sidious if it is so easy to be a Sith?

    Also, Sith Holocrons are not canon and only Jedi have Holocrons ... at the moment any way.


    To the first point, yes and no - they wouldn't want to risk any secrets getting out and disruptions to their plans, however, anything that a Force user would learn from just ac "book" would be much of a challenge. Also, the Sith are all about getting challenged - but by their apprentice, not any jackeen of the street. ;)

    The second point - agreed ... insanely boring origin story ;)
     
    darklordoftech likes this.
  4. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    Holocrons aren't just books. They contain the personality of the person that created them. They interact with the user, try to influence him or her, and can refuse to help.

    Sith are, at the core, all about selfishness and using the power of the Dark Side Force to benefit yourself and to conquer and subdue other people. If a dude who dreams of conquering the Galaxy uses an Holocrom to learn the Sith philosophy and techniques and uses these as tools of conquest, he or she is pretty much behaving like a Sith. Maybe not a "perfect" Sith, but many Sith Lords didn't give a damn the Sith Order anyways; Darth Tenebrous thought that the Sith Order was so stupid as the Jedi Order, and wanted to use the Sith techniques only for his own benefit; Darth Plagueis rejected the Rule of Two, and considered beating the Jedi less important that making himself immortal...etc., but those are still Sith Lords.

    1. But the Sith DO create holocrons that teach their philosphy and techniques. That is true both in the EU and in the new canon.

    2. There is a theory around that the new baddie is a failed disciple of Luke. Maybe a son of Solo and Leia who rejected his uncle's teachings and decided to learn the ways of the Dark Side instead.

    Luke would have gotten seriously depressed because of his failure as a teacher and lost his connection to the Force.
     
    Dra--- likes this.
  5. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Yes, I know they aren't "books" - but an interactive device is not the same as a flesh and blood teacher. Or even a Force Ghost teacher.

    "he or she is pretty much behaving like a Sith. Maybe not a "perfect" Sith" - "Pretty much" being something is a fry cry from actual being something.

    It doesn't make sense that you can't be a real Jedi, but you can be a real Sith, without an actual teacher.

    "Sith Lords didn't give a damn the Sith Order anyways" - yes they did. That is why worked in patience for a thousand years to get revenge on the Jedi and conquer the galaxy. If the Sith didn't care about the Sith, they wouldn't be Sith and they'd have gone off to do something else.

    There is no "Darth Tenebrous" and there is no mention of Plaguesis rejecting the Rule of Two in canon - however let's assume he did, I will counter with the fact that Sidious did not reject it and considered it pretty darn important (see TCW "The Lawless" and the the fact that neither Ventress nor Savage Opress were Sith).

    Also, let's pretend both of those things you describe are canon - over the the course of a thousand years there are bound to be a few Sith who don't fully tow the party line and get caught up in their "thing". That doesn't mean all Sith have rejected the Sith Order.
    .
    The EU/Legends is irrelevant. I have Googled Sith Holocrons and can't find any reference to them being canon - Holocrons on the star wars.com Database show an "affiliation" with "Jedi,Sith" but might just mean that Sith are related items of interest. Where have they been mentioned in the new canon?

    Yes, but learning it from an interactive computer, no matter how advanced, is still lame. A real teacher - be it human, alien or a spirit is far more interesting.

    You mean suffers "Spider-Man 2 syndrome" - where all his powers just suddenly disappear because he is upset?:rolleyes:

    Hopefully not. ;)
     
  6. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    1. If you have a new canon example, I'm all ears. I'm not aware of any new canon Sith holocrons.

    2. What's your point?
     
    Hoggsquattle likes this.
  7. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009

    I had a look myself but can't find any - of course, that doesn't mean there isn't ;)

    I believe that IG Lancer was giving an example of how someone could utilise a Sith Holocron to add to their previous training.

    EDIT: Not trying to step on yout toes IG Lancer, just wanting to help ;)
     
  8. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014

    The thing is that we don't know what happened in the years between ROTJ and TFA. While killing the Emperor was a major victory, I doubt even most of the Imperial fleet was destroyed. It's possible that the Alliance had great momentum, only to run into an Imperial commander who was a great tactician and strategist (Thrawn, anyone?) who managed to hold the Empire together. Besides, if the Emperor had a successor who wasn't as bloodthirsty or Stalin-like as he was, it's possible that would also keep the Empire together.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  9. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    Maybe a purist wouldn't consider somebody who lacked an actual Sith/Jedi teacher a true Sith or Jedi, but my point was about somebody learing the philosophy of the Sith or Jedi and taking their role.

    If some ambitious, evil Force-sensitive who wants to conquer the Galaxy learns to use Sith techniques, adopt their philosophy call himself/herself a Sith, and starts conspiring to take over the Empire, the Republic or both, that character is performing the same role as a Sith.

    Oh, sure, if some real Sith tested him he/she would probably not pass it, but the rest of the Galaxy would never notice the difference. If crossguard lightsaber dude is a Dark Sider who uses Sith techniques, calls himself a Sith and tries to conquer the Galaxy, everybody will consider him a Sith, save maybe some Force Ghosts in Korriban.

    But the Jedi were guardians of peace during the Old Republic. They were part of the government. If somebody learns how to use Jedi techniques and adopt their philosophy, that character couldn't just walk to Coruscant and start to behave like the Jedi of old. If that person arrived to a planet that was suffering a civil war and tried to mediate, he/she wouldn't be treated like a diplomat representing the central government, he/she would be treated like a nutso with a brown kimono and a lightsaber. If that person tried to take Force-sensitive children from their parents, he/she would be sent to jail. If that person tried to tell the Chancellor what to do, he/she would be treated like a nutso or a criminal. It would be a Don Quixote situation.

    There is also the fact that the Sith path appeals to ambitious, cruel people, but a new Jedi would have to teach himself/herself to avoid attachement, renounce his/her family and worldly possessions and spend his/her life serving the Galaxy without all the recognition and respect the old Jedi had...why would anybody do that to himself/herself? Couldn't she/he just try to help others in his/her own way without mimicking the Jedi?

    The use of the Force is dependant on your mental state. If you lose confidence, you can't use it. If you grow too hateful, fearful or angry, you fall to the Dark Side.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Holocron/Canon#cite_note-The_Secret_Jedi-0
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  10. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Jedi and Sith are just factions in a whole universe of Force users, as has been made clear in canon.

    There is more to being Jedi or Sith than learning their philosophises or techniques. If Luke re-establishes the Order but abandons the idea of a Council, serving one central government and allows his students to decide for themselves if they should have families, does that mean they are no longer Jedi? No it doesn't.

    It is more complex than that.

    Just because we don't know the intricate details of what makes a Sith a Sith doesn't mean that a Dark Sider who uses elements of the Sith are Sith.

    Kylo Ren owning a red bladed lightsabre does not make him a Sith. Nor does wanting to conquer the galaxy or hating the Jedi.

    And what is the point of a villain only pretending to be Sith?
    If he or she isn't actually going to be a real Sith then why not just create a whole new faction or motivation for the bad guy.

    The use of the Force is dependant on your mental state. If you lose confidence, you can't use it. If you grow too hateful, fearful or angry, you fall to the Dark Side.[/quote]

    Lacking confidence, faith and belief affects a person's ability to use of the Force (e.g Luke and Ezra), but there has never been any mention of a Jedi, especially a Master, of losing their powers or connection due to depression or such.

    Are Sith Holocrons mentioned in that book? Do you know the details?

    As best I can tell it is a collection of season one episode summaries.
     
  11. IG Lancer

    IG Lancer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2015
    The article is about holocrons in the new canon, and it gives that book as a reference about Sith holocrons.
     
  12. DaddlerTheDalek

    DaddlerTheDalek Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 31, 2014
    Is it just me or is this thread slightly off-topic right now?
     
  13. nightangel

    nightangel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2014
    :oops::rolleyes:[face_not_talking]
     
  14. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Indeed it is. Let's try and get back to the Empire and all of it's glory, we've got other threads for Jedi/Sith philosophies.
     
    DaddlerTheDalek likes this.
  15. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 2, 2013
    To me the whole Empire thing is about progress versus stagnation. Having the Empire "gain ground" in 30 years is very tiresome, very boring, very stagnant, and offers absolutely NOTHING to prospect that this vast empire can be defeated. Therefore, there pretty much is really nothing the rebels (seems utterly ridiculous to call them that after 50 years) can ever gain ground if they didn't gain ground after ROTJ. And there's even less to indicate that these rebels have any chance to beat such a vast empire.

    So therefore, what are the good guys even fighting for? Nothing they can do can wipe out the empire. The OT was about how they were supposed to have defeated the Empire. The ST should be about how a Republic is formed after that while a new threat comes into play. Like I said before, this is like the Boy Who Cried Wolf over and over again. You beat the empire-everyone celebrates-yay! But then they come back. How do you have a victory and celebration bigger than the ones we saw? The answer is YOU CAN'T. So Rian Johnson has a very very difficult situation on his hands.

    I really liked the ideas developed a while ago here:

    The celebrations after ROTJ were short-lived. Those who were glad the Empire was defeated began to govern for themselves. However, the resources that had been meagerly provided for them were vanishing. Now they had to resort to piracy, theft, and crime to obtain what their individual worlds needed.

    During this time of piracy, a few groups stumbled upon a mass of supplies leftover from the Empire. This abandoned outpost contains stockpiles of stormtrooper armor, weapons, and equipment. In desperation, this group begins to use these to create terror around the galaxy in order to provide for their people. In the midst of this underhanded technique, they stumble upon a Sith ancient ground which unhinges a spirit from the past.

    This makes more sense considering that the ships and armor hasn't changed in 30 years.
     
  16. ArchStanton1862

    ArchStanton1862 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2014
    The armor has changed a good deal. As have the ships, judging from some of the concept art and descriptions. But the idea that the Empire still being in charge means stagnation and tedium is dead on. I do think though that the phrase "gain ground" is implying something different from that though. Think about it. In ROTJ how many systems were under Alliance control? As near as we could tell none, although they did have bases and such on unoccupied or abandoned worlds. Essentially, they were a group operating inside the giant Galactic Empire, not an actual government controlling a set territory. If they never really grew beyond that then it doesn't seem like they even gained any ground to lose. What, are they going to have the size of their bases shrink? It'd be ludicrous.

    What that says to me is that they did have some victories and they did drive the Empire back, but they never completely exterminated it. And now the Empire is having a resurgence in power, possibly due to the rise of some new Sith, which means that they are gaining back some of their lost ground. After all, if they never lost any ground (only a few battles) then what is left to take back?
     
    Dra--- likes this.
  17. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    So jedijax you don't care if the Sith come back time and time again, but not the Empire. How consistent of you.

    And of course you also don't mind some other baddie taking the Empire's place, although that contradicts your basic unspoken assumption that the heroes deserve to progress after ROTJ.

    In fact, the Empire really is so big that it would be nearly impossible to defeat them completely. So not only does it make plot sense, it also makes fan sense, since most fans IMO actually like the Empire as an enemy.
     
    darklordoftech and starocean90 like this.
  18. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2009

    No, it gives the book as a reference about Holocrons, not Sith Holocrons. The wiki entry itself says Sith Holocrons exist but is all it says - it offers no source.
     
  19. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 2, 2013
    The Sith are an ancient religion steeped in mythology. There are a million things you can do with it. Besides, a Sith created the Empire anyway. The Empire is a stagnant, boring set of military stiffs without the SIth. There's little more you can do with tie fighters, star destroyers, and death stars that would be remotely interesting. Besides, you pretty much need the Sith to make the Empire relevant anyway so that tells us that the Sith are much more interesting than the Empire ever will.

    In addition, as you stated, the Empire is SO vast (but that is truly supposition) but followed the Emperor. As he himself stated, he controlled the Senate-probably using mind control anyway. It's like saying if Sauron died, why wouldn't Orcs go on without him? Or the death eaters without Voldemort? If, in fantasy, a symbolic victory like shown in ROTJ isn't good enough to defeat the Empire, it's pretty safe to say that nothing could so there's really no point in continuing the story. It would literally take hundreds and hundreds of years before the Empire would gradually fade away if this were the case. Since the Sith are mythical, there could be some power somewhere that, when turned off or destroyed, ends the Sith. Maybe a planet? Maybe a crystal? Maybe a vault? Who knows.

    The point is that the biggest argument against the Empire being gone is that they are so vast. But this is a fictional story and belief must be suspended.Nobody has offered a good idea on how the entire Empire would be defeated if they haven't already been defeated. Sure, the superweapon could do it? Maybe the Sith themselves destroy the parts of the Empire they control? Who knows? Maybe parts of the "cold war-ish" Empire join the alliance to battle the sith, forging a final truce between the two that leads to the Republic? I don't know-there's got to be a deeper story reason for having the Empire intact than just "they are too vast" or "their ships and stormtroopers bring in toy sales" because having an endless battle that never ends doesn't really offer any kiind of happy ending.

    This is where the idea that a faction, dissatisfied and angry at the way the galaxy is being run (or not run most likely) comes in. Factions that once celebrated the overthrow of Palpatine suffered for a while and then somehow began to, ironically, create an empire of its own. Freedom actually brought about terror. We've already heard there will be gangs, pirates, etc. Whose to say some of these, possibly leftovers from the Empire who had no place else to go, got a hold of Imperial gear and started the whole thing over again. Perhaps the "Empire" is not really the empire we knew but either a group who supported the alliance and have turned on them or former imperial insurgent groups that organized to create something that resembles the former empire but is far worse.
     
    KenW likes this.
  20. DarthLightlyBruise

    DarthLightlyBruise Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Personally, I found Tarkin to be the best villain in the OT, so I disagree. Still, I do want there to be Sith in the ST.
     
    Dra--- and darklordoftech like this.
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    The irony here is that Vader and Palpatine are Imperials (in addition to being Sith). In fact, they're introduced as Imperials before they're established as Sith.

    Also, if the Empire's so boring, why do KOTOR and TOR copy it? Why does everyone and their mother cosplay Stormtroopers? Why did Reagen compare the Soviet Union to the Empire and not to the Sith?

    In fact, the original premise of Star Wars was the war between the Rebels and the Empire, with Jedi vs. Sith being just as much a part of that war as X-Wings vs. TIE Fighters.
     
    Dra--- and Force Smuggler like this.
  22. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    edit: double post
     
  23. ArchStanton1862

    ArchStanton1862 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2014
    Just because the films start out with the Empire around doesn't mean they end that way. The Empire could be destroyed by IX. There's no point ruling that out as a possibility until we see what the writers come up with. Or they could all decide they can live with each other if only those pesky Sith weren't in the way. I quite like the idea of Imperials and Rebels teaming up to face a bigger enemy. Either way, there's plenty of room for a happy ending in there. If this is about the rebuilding of the Jedi order like many suspect it's practically a given. And it would need to come from a place of relative darkness for it to have any meaning.

    As far as the repetitiveness issue goes though, we've had rebels as the bad guys, we've had the established government as the bad guys, if we genuinely want something new then having the remnants of a toppled regime attempt a comeback is really the closest we can get. The previous films were also very much coming from a background of peacefulness or constant oppression, so having an uneasy peace as the background for this one seems a clever move. I get that you don't like Imperials as villains, but if you remove them then what do we get? The PT all over again. An established government (the Rebels) facing a Sith insurgency. At least having a changed and shrunken Empire trying to turn back the clock has the potential to show us something new.
     
  24. jedijax

    jedijax Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 2, 2013
    Video games? We're using video games as comparison?o_O

    I'm fine with Imperials as enemies as long as they have a story that covers what happened in 30 years other than "they were just too big to destroy". That argument gets old very quickly and works with history but not so much for a saga that only spans a certain amount of time. So, as I've asked before, if they couldn't be defeated before, how would they be defeated now? I've offered several possibly explanations in concession that they will exist. I've said that maybe some of them join the alliance to defeat the last sith and thus the New Republic is born. Maybe the Sith actually destroy the rest of the empire or enough of it to scare the rest into joining the alliance. Yet, even as I've offered ideas, every single one of them has been shot down. That's fine-I can accept that, but only in place of ideas offered by others. Some have said that maybe the Empire dissolves from within. The big problem with that is that the movie is not solely about the Empire and if it dissolves from within, it would be strictly an empire movie and not involve the heroes.
     
    KenW likes this.
  25. Dra---

    Dra--- Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2012
    What jedijax and those who think he like he does are confused about is they assume the majority agrees that the Empire is boring and repetitive. But that assumption lacks warrant IMO as most people like stormtroopers and Imperials as enemies.

    jedijax also never answers this contradiction implicit in his argument:

    But this is exactly what he wants. He just wants a new enemy to take the place of the Empire. Or he wants an old enemy as long as its one he likes (the Sith).

    If the Sith could be destroyed forever and a happy ending achieved at some point, then the same can happen with the Empire.

    In fact, it makes much more sense that the Empire is more difficult to destroy than the Sith because they are much greater in number. And yes, this is backed up by Vader 2 when Tagge explains that they'll focus on creating a vast ocean of Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers throughout the galaxy.

    If you kill the emperor, it should be obvious they still have Moffs and Governors in charge. To compare these people to Orcs is ridiculous and just exposes jedijax 's bias.
     
    starocean90 and darklordoftech like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.