ST The Empire in the ST

The start of Ep 7 may mirror the start of The Empire Strikes Back

Ep 5 text crawl - opening paragraph:

In hindsight, there was no continuity reason why the Empire rose back to power after the destruction of the first Death Star. The start of TESB could have been the opposite:

TESB could have started with the Rebels still strong and the Empire fairly weak. The Empire could have decided to develop a new Death Star on Hoth. The Empire launches a sneak surprise attack on Hoth and the Rebels are too slow to react. The Rebellion send Luke and others to help the troops on Hoth.

The start of TMSB is not consistent with the ending of ANH. There isn't that much story sense why the Empire was stronger than the Rebels at the start Ep 5. It doesn't make much or any sense given the fact the Death Star was destroyed, most or all of the high command were killed.

Fans accepted the start of ep 5 because it was more Star Wars. I never questioned the start. But looking back, it's not particularly credible. And now, with episode 7 about to appear, Abrams and Kasdan can repeat the same sort of start. The start of ep 7 can establish the Empire as more powerful than the rebel alliance (or whatever it's called). The precedent was established in TESB.

 

I never said a plot "to undermine their influence" - I said "to remove their influence over the Senate" - which would be the result of their destruction.

Where in RotS is there any indication that the Jedi Council suspected Palpatine of being Sidious or being in league with Sidious?

Yes, Windu's senses where accurate, but every Jedi probably figures that this was Sidious ultimate goal anyway.

How was Yoda's vision accurate? Ashoka was in it. Did she die in Vader's attack on the Temple? Was she even there?

Yoda knew the danger was there, but he didn't know how imminent - unless you are suggesting he was willing to just let it happen,

There is nothing in the OT to suggest that the Force Ghost can do anything except talk to Luke. Maybe the can't foresee things or go anywhere except where Luke is.

I think the Force Ghost's will have moved on - unless Anakin is still around trying to make peace with Leia. I would love to see that in either a movie or post-RotJ animated series.

I doubt very much that there is a Jedi Academy massacre in decades between the trilogies - either in dialogue or flashback. It is just too much a copy of RotS.

IF there is a flashback to a Jedi massacre, I think it would most likely be to Vader's attack on the Jedi Temple - perhaps this "Uber" guy was a survivor or Max von Sydow's character is recounting it - assuming he isn't "Uber" himself.

I hope there isn't flashbacks - not because they haven't been in the previous ones, just that if a character is recounting Order 66 or the Temple attack, it would be better to hear them describe it ... think Robert Shaw in Jaws, there is no way his Indianapolis story would have been better as a flashback than it was with Shaw's performance.

 

Just to add to my previous post...

You can argue it does make sense but it takes take a few liberties with the ending of ANH. Said in hindsight, the start of TESB might have been more 'realistic' had the Rebels been the dominant power in the universe and the Empire recovering. Personally, I would prefer this scenario at the start of TFA. I'd rather have the Empire - what remains of it - not the dominant power in the galaxy. Something happens in the story - a weapon is developed or new Sith or whatever it is - and this gives the Empire the advantage. I'd prefer this approach but none of the rumors suggest this is how The Force Awakens will start.

 

There is no "inconsistency".

The Empire lost a major installation but not not it's vast fleet.

Nor did they lose "most or all of the high command" - IF those officers from the briefing room were still on board they were probably only the Outer Rim commanders and their seconding-commands would step in immediately. As it is only Tarkin is shown to have been aboard - I don't think Motti is actually on screen in the battle.

It is not canon that Tagge, Motti or Yularan were on board.

In fact, I hope this was considered by the new comic writers - @Dra-, you mentioned Tagge is relation to the Dath Vader comic ... is he in it or just referenced?

 

Mace Windu: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

That dialogue is quite explicit I think. Sure they don’t know that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same... but they are cognisant of something going down, and it involving the chancellor

Yoda not only saw Jedi versus clonetroopers, he saw Padawans lying dead in the Jedi temple and the death of several Jedi Masters, at the hands of Sidious/Anakin, as they appear in the movie. I think that’s a pretty accurate vision of what actually happens when Order 66 is issued several months after.

I don’t think that’s incorrect. You’re forgetting that Qui-Gon communed with both Yoda and Obi-Wan. And as the films established both Yoda and Anakin have the ability to foresee events, I would expect that continuity to carry over to the ST, if the force ghosts return.

Possibly. I’m not married to the idea of force ghosts being in the ST, just that they would be conspicuous by their absence i.e. it would need some modicum of explanation.

I very much agree with you here. It’s too reminiscent of the PT’s Jedi purge for my liking, and I think it would require too much exposition in the context of a new movie that is also a sequel. Saying that, I also think that if there is no Jedi Academy in TFA, that too needs to be explained somehow... because it would be a logical assumption to think that Luke would try and train others post ROTJ. Perhaps he just never got chance if the Empire was still as strong and the civil was still rife?

Again I agree... and the Robert Shaw one is a good example of how film can paint vivid pictures with some good dialogue/acting (sometimes ‘telling’ and not ‘showing’ is good too). I too don’t personally like the use of flashbacks... I think they are sometimes a bit too easy. There are of course other cinematic ways to incorporate flashbacks that have more context within the narrative e.g. dreams, premonitions, recordings etc. etc. which I think is a far more preferable technique than the usually one. So I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to a flashback as long as it uses a kind of diegetic, as opposed to non-diegetic, technique e.g. the Pensieve in Harry Potter... or, dare I say it, the Vulcan mind-meld in Star Trek 09.

 

Well, you've got me there ... I have zero recollection of Windu saying "The Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor".

That opens a whole can of worms and raises a lot more questions for me.

I'm going to have a Star Wars-fest in the months leading up to TFA - movies, TV shows and canon comics & books - and try doing it chronologically as possible.

No doubt I'll be back at some point because by waking me up that reference I'' have more to discuss with you on this, hopefully.

I'll get to the rat of your post this evening as I need to get something to eat and it is already way past lunch

 

Tagge's actually in it. Palpatine promotes him to "Grand General" for having the foresight to leave the Death Star when Tarkin and Motti would not. Palpatine puts him in charge of the entire military. He commissions the construction of more Star Destroyers (including the Executor) as well as the second Death Star.

So in the new canon, the second Death Star begins construction almost immediately after the first one is destroyed. Unfortunately, it seems to confirm that Motti did not survive.

 

Haha...

 

I don't think the Empire was in any danger of being overtaken by The Rebel Alliance at any stage between ANH and ROTJ, as the gap was simply just too wide so long as Darth Sidious and Darth Vader were at the helm of the Empire.

After both Sith lords were destroyed, large parts of the empire were sure to break away. This fragmentation was to be expected, in a galaxy ruled by brutal Sith oppression and fear. When you consider the sheer scale of the The Galactic Empire at the time of the Death Star's destruction, It is unlikely that the Rebel Alliance were a direct match for them in the days, weeks, months or possibly years Immediately after ROTJ.

The Empire at the end of the day was a Sith Empire, and with both Sith Lords now dead, there was likely a massive power vacuum , breakdown in structure and perhaps even a Infighting among Imperial commanders or Inquisitors vying for control. This Infighting is likely what allowed some systems to break away from the central Imperial structure and In some cases join the Rebel Alliance group.

With Luke Skywalker, The rebel's had the Galaxy's most powerful living force user on their side. Technically they could have wiped out the Inquisitors, and systematically destroyed the Empire. However Luke is a Jedi and not a Sith, so wiping out seemed an unlikely option.

I think the Rebel Alliance gave all systems the freedom to choose either The Republic or The Empire, rather than attempting to force them by war. In some ways I'm thinking of post WWII and how Europe was divided into East/West, which was essentially the beginning of the cold war.

 

A "Grand General", not Grand Admiral ? What rank does Tagge have in ANH?

I'm happy that the writers and Story group have had the imagination and "foresight" themselves not to just have all those guys dead.

However, isn't that plot about the second Death Star inconsistent with the movies?

It took 20 years to build the first Death Star - getting the second that far in 3 years doesn't seem right.

Also, doesn't RotS end with Palpatine and Vader looking at two Death Stars under construction?

Something is either wrong with my memory or the writers/Story Group have made a goof - and I tend to think the former is more likely

The above implies that Luke is some kind of all powerful unstoppable warrior. We don't know just how powerful Luke is. He may not have anywhere near the potential of Anakin or a fraction of the power of Yoda.

One Jedi Knight doesn't exactly tip the scales in the Alliances favour when you consider the size and resources of the Empire. Remember hundreds of Jedi could barely take on the Separatists and without the millions of Clones at the their side, they would last.

I'm not saying Luke is pointless or wouldn't have a effect, but he is just one man.

 

I meant "rest" of course

 

Luke is so powerful that he can take down a star destroyer. At least that was rumoured 9000 times, before the Luke cameo rumours appeared.

 

IIRC there was also one about literally moving mountains.

 

They just meant he had faith the size of a mustard seed and that he sits on a mountain.

 

No, I think you misunderstand my point - yes it is accurate to what WE see, but I'm talking about the vision in terms of Yoda's perspective in the episode. Yes, he sees dead Padawans and Masters but he also sees Ashoka, who has exiled herself. Does Yoda take what he sees as what IS going to happen or does he believe it requires further interpretation?

After all, he does nothing about it? Does Yoda deliberately not intervene? Why would he allow it?

I see no reason why he would so I think that he was still trying to figure it all out (living Qui-Gon and good Dooku were also in his visions) - and therefore he hadn't anticipated the danger was so close - and living Qui-Gon and good Dooku were also in his visions, so perhaps

" ... at the hands of Sidious/Anakin ... " the figure was cloaked so from Yoda's point of view he couldn't tell it was Anakin.

I don't remember it in detail as to the Clones role so I'd have to rewatch it.

Yes, that is possible but Obi-Wan wasn't shown to have retained any Force abilities.

Perhaps, but wouldn't the fact that they are not in the movie be enough explanation that they have moved on?

Yes, I don't want remakes. And there doesn't have to be an Academy - Luke may train one or two at a time in their own hometown or the Force lead them to Skellig Michael.

If Luke is running a Jedi school, it won't be out of some giant temple or state of the art training centre. When I think of it in terms of TFA, I keep imagining a small village with the families of the students living with them.

However, I think the idea that Luke has trained individuals or small groups at a time is more likely.

I prefer the idea that the Jedi are very few in number and very much the underdog compared to the enemies they face, because we've already had a trilogy with being on top and one with them being all but extinct.

That moment with Shaw is one of the most memorable pieces in movie history, to say nothing of the film itself, and I think it safe to say that if Spielberg had made it as a flashback, that very few people would remember it.

I agree there are times when flashbacks, and similar methods work, like in LOST and Arrow where they are important elements in unveiling the whole story, but often times they are lazy.

Just to clarify, the "Harry Potter, Star Trek" flashbacks are good or bad? I can't tell because of how you phrased the preceding sentence

In regards to the general use of flashbacks, dreams, etc, in movies and TV, I have to say that one particular TV deserves create praise for their unique take on it and it is something that for years I wanted to see - the pilot episode of State of Affairs shows the flashback in the first person perspective and it is amazing just how much of an improvement it was over the standard method.

Dream sequences bother me to - they are nearly always supposed to "surprise" us... "oh wow that was a dream I couldn't tell until he suddenly woke up in shock" .

If a dream sequence is necessary then make it like a dream with all the weird elements in the sub conscience mind and tell it from the first person, because it isn't fooling anyone anyway.

 

There is a mountain on this island, so it fits.

 

Tagge was a regular general in ANH. I assume there will be Grand Admirals at some point, but right now we'll have to make due with Grand General being the highest military rank.

You need to re-watch ROTS. Only one Death Star is being built.

It was 4 years between the first Death Star and the second. Lucas says on the Blu-Rays that the first one took forever because the senate was still around trying to stall construction, there were labor disputes, etc. The Empire was going full boar on the second Death Star because there was no senate holding them back.

 

Without conspiring Siths or Dark Jedis muddling his sight, the precogniction of a powerful Jedi would be enough to tip the scales of war. He could know where and when the enemies are going to attack, locate their secret bases and fleets...etc.

Yes, I know Palpatine and Vader had trouble locating the rebels during the Civil War...I guess some personal involvement would be required to fully exploit that power, like piloting the scout starship yourself. Or maybe you would need to seek a given person or object that you have ever seen for that power to work, and "people who conspire to dethrone me" wasn't concrete enough.

 

No, this makes Luke, or any Jedi, way too powerful and that gets in the way because if a character is almost limitless in power they become uninteresting.

 

The power of a single, fully trained Sith or Jedi is always treated like it's a big deal in the movies. Yoda and Obi-wan focus all their efforts into destroying Vader and Palpatine, thinking that the key to victory. Before that, the Jedi Order at its peak was obsessed with destroying the Sith, treating them as more dangerous than the rest of the Separatist block even if they were just two.

Those people have many hundred of thousands of clone troopers, millions or billions of members of the planetary armies, militias and Judicial Forces, hundreds of thousands of warships and trillions of other craft, but when they want to get serious, they send a Jedi.

 

Yes, being Sith and Jedi is a big deal but even the most powerful of those are not all powerful.

That is why the Sith worked in secret for so long and why, even when his existence was exposed, still had to fight from the shadows.

Prior to the Clone Wars, the Republic had no massive army or vast fleet - the Clones came with the war and there was no one else but the Jedi to lead them.

 

Personally speaking, I think the notion the Empire is STILL the dominant force (pardon the pun!) in the universe in ep 7 is kind of silly but more to the point, I think it's deeply unoriginal.

I think my idea is, for lack of a better word, better. The start of EP 7 - the text crawl - states:

"It is a time of peace in the galaxy...."

We establish the fact peace now reigns. There's been no Sith/Empire for over 30 years. During a special commemoration party/event/reception etc - where many delegates/leaders of the NEW Republic are in attendance - the new Empire does a sneak attack. They destroy the New Republic's main weapons industurial complex, perhaps it's new space weapons. Sort of similar to the Japanese sneak attack on the US's Pearl Harbour base on Hawaii.

The attack is so sudden, so unexpected, it plunges the SW universe into a new war. I think this is a much better approach because you start out with A CLEAN SLATE.

Why oh why do Abrams/Kasdan have to be so unoriginal? More Empire chasing the Rebels? SHeesh, for 32 years? Oh please. Surely they can come up with something new? And the best way to do "new" is start with the SW universe at PEACE. It's all happy times and then

"By the holy stars...! We're under attack! Imperial starships!"

"That's impossible. There's been no sighting of the Empire for decades!"

I think this would be a classic, brilliant way to start EP 7. And it would be a brilliant way to get the original cast back into the storyline. Luke could be a loner on some planet, Han could be back smuggling, Leia could be doing her own thing. When the new Empire reveals itself, the new Republic ask Luke and the others to help. It would make perfect plot sense.

As the storyline progresses it's revealed how and why the Empire returned after so long. And to make it feel fresh, the Empire would have new ships, not the same old stuff from 1983! Time to move forward, folks! This is ep 7 (made in 2015), not ep 6 (made in 1983). Time for some radically different Imperial spaceships and land based craft.

All of my suggestions are not that radical. It's kind of common sense to imagine a huge gap in the SW universe could lead to peace. The Empire could have fallen for good after ep 6. But then.. something happened. The Empire returned in a new form in ep 7. And it's made clear how they returned. This is not the same Empire. No more white clad Stormtroopers, no more tie-fighters, no more triangular destroyers. All gone. This is a complete revamp of the Empire.

The teaser trailer has nothing fresh. Nothing. It's a total failure from a creative 'let's try something fresh' perspective. We've all just jaded, embracing zero originality. 57 million views on Youtube for something with not one jot of freshness. Wow. That's kinda depressing.

 

That would be a good way to bring them back. Surprise everyone by the sight of tie fighters and star destroyers and make it a shock like the Sith were surprising in TPM. Then as you've said, have some sense of a mystery as to why and how the Empire could suddenly return, or at least their ships and armor. Just saying "they were vast" isn't sufficient-not for a fantasy.

 

Let me see if I have this right -- you think your idea "would be a classic, brilliant way to start EP 7?"

I wonder why you would think that. Well, you better definitely get on the horn to Disney.

EDIT: Wait! jedijax likes the "mystery" behind the Empire has been hiding somewheres idea. Nevermind, don't call Disney. (Jedijax means well, but is wrong 99.9999% of the time.)

 

star wars geek

No, you are assuming it Empire chasing Rebels and a "revamp" because you are assuming it Empire chasing Rebels and "revamp".

There is nothing unoriginal about reusing certain elements - it is the use of them and the story that needs to be original.

At this time, we do not know this the story or the state of the Empire, etc.

As to the teaser? I fail to see how it isn't fresh or original - most of it was showing new stuff and the cip of the stormtroopers on the dropship (or whatever) looked completely different to anything from the previous movies.

That said, there simply isn't enough in it to judge the movie either positively or negatively.

Personally, I liked the look of it. And I don't get why so many people are so negative when there is simply not enough information or imagery to judge anything at all.

I am, supposedly, "one of the most cynical people on God's Green Earth" and even I don't know why people are so down in the dumps or angry about any of this.