The Empire is NOT bad....

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by MZEATCSH, May 19, 2005.

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  1. Vaderdj420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 1
    They took Palpatine to create a diversion since the jedi were so spread across the galaxy. Palpatine counted on Anakin to kill count Dooku, and wanted him to continue after Grievous..
  2. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The Empire's not about peace, it's just about power. Sidious feeds on power and the domination of others. He was happy to manipulate the entire galaxy into a war that cost (presumably) millions of lives. Even if the Republic was a corrupt and bloated entity, trading it for a repressive and murderous form of fascism is a giant step backward.


    Those millions were either genetically created duplicates or robots. Ultimately inconsequential--not many actual citizens lost their lives, especially since most of the fighting took place on sparsely populated Rim worlds.

    Furthermore, place kindly prove any repression or murder on the Empire's part. I'd like to see it. :)

    A government that willfully allows criminals to run entire systems versus one that universalizes law and order--which is the more evil?
  3. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Finally, was Palpatine on the Death Star? Did he give the order to fire? Before you suggest he would have or that he's responsible because he created the Death Star, I'll direct your attention to the Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope radio drama. In it, we learn quite clearly that the Galactic Emperor would have opposed the destruction of a Core world and that Lord Vader himself demanded that Grand Moff Tarkin speak to Palpatine before following through on his action. Tarkin paid Lord Vader no heed"

    actually, that radio drama shouldnt really be cited. it came out before ESB, and at the time, the emperor wasnt supposed tp be the ultiamte evil anyway. in fact, regional governors were the truly evil ones, who were using the name of the emperor to further their own agendas. the emperor wasnt made the ultimate bad guy until the time of ESB. the radio drama also names bail organa by another name, so it really isnt canon anyways.

  4. salaam1420 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    The Empire is communism. Palpatine=Fidel Castro.


    By the way, for me and my friends here in Spain the way of act of Palpatine reflects exactly the way of thought of president Bush.


  5. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    think about john locke people.

    he said, that if the people truly arent satisfied with the way a government was ruling, they (the people) have the right, to overtrow that government.

    its obvious, many oppose the way the empire conducts its business. therfore, they have the right to overthow it. what makes palpatine, and his empire evil, is that he resists the will of the people, and will do anything to stay in power, even destroy a planet to scare them into submission.


    and yes, the rebellion was a rising tide in the will of the people.
    "the rebellion will continue to gain a support in the imperial senate-"

    and come one, listen to the mace scene: "the opression of the sith will never return!"

    and mace and posse were only going to arrest palpatine, not kill him. remember he is the one who attacked. sure they sabres were up, but its the same with cops. they always point their guns when they arrest someone.

    not only that, the jedi knew palpatine was not only a sith lord, but a traitor to the republic. he manipulated both sides of the war, and the jedi were suddenly savvy to this. they had to arrest a traitor.

    its obvious the sith are tyrants.
  6. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    A coup is always an extra-judicial (aka illegal) act. Mace lied (Jedi seem to love to do this) about implying that he had the authority of the Senate backing him when he invoked their name. The Jedi practice deseit as much as Palpy, but they do it with a smile and babbling some meaningless platitudes about the "will of the Force" that only they can understand.

    Let us say that Palpatine, Yoda and Vader (pre-lava bath) look into a mirror. What do each of them see? Yoda cannot see the fact that he's a stupid, arrogant little weasel that doesn't have a compassionate bone in his body, but somehow he's able to rationalize it all away with that "will of the Force" crap that the Jedi essentially made-up to justify their power and authority. Palpy sees evil and revels in it; he's as close to being in a state of contentment and peace as a Sith is going to get. Neither of them deserve sympathy. yoda is a deluded fool, and Palpatine is seriously unstable, since he's just in this for evil's sake.

    Vader is the key. Looking in the mirror, he'd see the face of a young man betrayed by everyone--his wife, his "friend" Kenobi who leaves him to die, the arrogant little creep Yoda whose final advice to him could be summed up as: "Die everyone does; get used to it you must, kid."

    He sided with the person who had betrayed him the least. Wouldn't any rational person do this when faced with taking sides in such a gargantuan power struggle?
  7. SithLord4488 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 1
    the whole star wars story of the empire is based upon the roman empire which changed from a republic to an empire
  8. kramer_dke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 1
    Hitler in his early years as leader of Germany wasn't bad either. He was actually a political genius that united post-ww1 Germany under a new nationalism and stimulated economy, exactly what German needed at the time. Eventually his genius became madness, and his ideals became out of control. His vision of peace and prosperity was very intact, it just became opressive and didn't include peoples of the rest of the world. An Empire fueled by greed and lust for power.
  9. FurryFriend Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2005
    star 1
    >think about john locke people.

    >he said, that if the people truly arent satisfied with the way a government was ruling, they (the people) have the right, to overtrow that government.

    Then the Seperatists' fight against the Republic was a just war because John Locke would have argued those unhappy with their government has the right to leave and form their own union.

    Therefore, using your argument, the Jedis are evil for fighting the Seperatists instead of just letting them seperate.
  10. Hugh_Jass Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    star 1
    --The Empire is communism. Palpatine=Fidel Castro.

    The Empire isn't a communistic state, though it is a toltalitarian regime. People are still allowed to own and control private propery, though the state could sieze it at their convenience.

    -By the way, for me and my friends here in Spain the way of act of Palpatine reflects exactly the way of thought of president Bush.

    That's simply ludicrous. Now, I'm not saying I agree with a lot of Bush's policies, but he is NO Dark Lord of the Sith.
  11. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Furthermore, please kindly prove any repression or murder on the Empire's part. I'd like to see it.

    Alderaan. Caamas. The Falleen extermination. The segregation of aliens. Sexism in the military. Racism in the military. "Your hate has made you powerful." The economic and military decimation of Chandrila. Public executions of political opponents. The murder of Owen and Beru Lars without a trial or the ability to consult a lawyer. The murder of Morgan Katarn under the same circumstances. COMPNOR's loyalty tests. The regular execution of Imperial officers for mistakes, without trial. The Candorian plague that Madine felt so guilty about unleashing that he defected. The attempted bombing of a Corellian government building with civilians still inside. The Jedi Purge. The banning of Redshift Limit's album "Road to Mandalore." The Galaxy Gun. The Sun Crusher. The terrorist actions of the pro-Palpatine PCIF on Coruscant. The Ghorman Massacre. Tarkin getting promoted for carrying out the Ghorman Massacre. The enslavement of Wookiees. The kickbacks the Emperor received from organized crime syndicates like Black Sun. The dissolution of all citizen participation in government. The Tarkin Doctrine. The massacre at Abridon. The trial and attempted execution of Brenn Tantor for refusing to commit said massacre. The systematic rape of Kalaan's ecology. The sales of mothballed Victory-class Star Destroyers to ruthless institutions such as the Corporate Sector Authority. The murder of 300,000 Ploven in three coastal cities on their planet. The attempted subjugation of the Mon Calamari. The very existence of the Base Delta Zero directive. The attempt to BDZ Nar Shaddaa. The subjugation of Manaan. The attempted assassination of Jan Dodonna without any official charges. The attempt to consume Mon Calamari with the World Devastator war machines. The subjugation of Toprawa.

    That's all I can think of for right now. Sorry if thirty-eight separate incidents of or plans for Imperial-sanctioned repression and brutality isn't enough to constitute proof.
  12. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    Anybody who thinks the Empire is not evil is the same kind of person that voted for Bush.

    *raises hand and asks a mod for permission to flame* :p

    Here is my response to you, only a sith would deal in absolutes and your statement is an example of an "absolute". ;)
  13. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Anybody who thinks the Empire is not evil is the same kind of person that voted for Bush.

    Please name an equal or greater amount of absolute bloody atrocities or plans to create absolute bloody atrocities that I mentioned above, and I'll believe that George Bush is a Sith Lord. Not one second before. Only a few Presidents have come anywhere close to being a millionth as bad as Palpatine was.
  14. JedimasterMoon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 4
    The Empire is bad. They killed thousands of Jedi,and people from other planets. Padme's death was a result of the Empire,Anakin believed he could take over. It's bad,bad,bad! But hey, this is only my opinion.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
  16. vivatforx Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2005
    i'm sorry if this has been said a thousand times in this thread already, but you obviously didn't get the point. the emporer didn't want peace, he wanted power. he was also more than willing to lie to anakin to aquire his loyalty. i don't remember seeing the republic/rebels use an ultimate weapon to blow up an unsuspecting, weaponless planet.
    and as to your still liking anakin at the end, you are supposed to. he is what's known as a tragic figure. for all of his flaws and mistakes, you still know the good person he was, and you feel for him. but make no mistake, anakin was selfish and insecure, and that is ultimatly why he turned.
  17. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    Concerning the more outrageous charges of alleged atrosities . . .

    Alderran - A state-sponsor of terrorism. They had it coming. It isn't like the Alderaani were innocent and Tarkin just totally decided to destroy Alderaan at random. Alderaan's leaders are clearly terrorist sympathizers and collaborators, and, since its doubtful that Leia would ever serve a dictatorship, Alderraan is democratic, hence their leaders are elected, which indicates that the populace is strongly pro-rebel. I could just see Alderaan being a cess-pool of plans to overthrow the legitimate galactic government.

    Camaas - Given enough prodding they could have turned into another Alderaan. They had to go too.

    The Falleen - As I recall only 200,000 were killed. Vader was acting with the greater interests of the galaxy at heart: containing a plague.

    Chandrila - Mon Mothma represented them in the Senate. Another bastion of rebel scum. Should count their lucky stars they got to continue existing on their planet.
  18. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Concerning the more outrageous charges of alleged atrosities . . .

    Alderran - A state-sponsor of terrorism. They had it coming. It isn't like the Alderaani were innocent and Tarkin just totally decided to destroy Alderaan at random. Alderaan's leaders are clearly terrorist sympathizers and collaborators, and, since its doubtful that Leia would ever serve a dictatorship, Alderraan is democratic, hence their leaders are elected, which indicates that the populace is strongly pro-rebel. I could just see Alderaan being a cess-pool of plans to overthrow the legitimate galactic government.

    Camaas - Given enough prodding they could have turned into another Alderaan. They had to go too.

    The Falleen - As I recall only 200,000 were killed. Vader was acting with the greater interests of the galaxy at heart: containing a plague.

    Chandrila - Mon Mothma represented them in the Senate. Another bastion of rebel scum. Should count their lucky stars they got to continue existing on their planet.


    Of course Alderaan had it coming. That doesn't make it right or morally justifiable to destroy the entire planet. The same applies for Caamas and to a lesser extent for Chandrila's devastation. 200,000 were killed on Falleen because of an Imperial blunder that allowed a tissue-destroying bacterium to escape into the population.

    Even though the Rebels technically were terrorists, considering the ratio of their civilian kills (accidental) to that of the Empire's (which doesn't care and sometimes actively attempts to kill civilians) would you rather have Mon Mothma or Palps in power? The fact is that the government of the Empire was a bastion of morally bankrupt people who routinely oppressed and killed those under their rule. To say otherwise is a baseless, morally indefensible cop-out.

    Also, by the time of ANH, the Empire can no longer be considered a legitimate galactic government, because they have stifled all citizen participation in its activities.
  19. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Also, by the time of ANH, the Empire can no longer be considered a legitimate galactic government, because they have stifled all citizen participation in its activities.

    But we dont know if at the time of Republic, how many of those senators were from quasi-dictatorship planets. And we dont know what happened after ROTJ. Maybe the galaxy is ruled by Hutt-like mafiaoso type gansters.
  20. Agnes_Bean Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    A state-sponsor of terrorism

    It's only terrorism from the Empire's point of veiw. From other people's point of veiw they were freedom fighters.

    Or are you going to tell me that any group that fights agains the goverment are terrorists? Because in that case America was founded on terrorism, as were the large number of other countries that had to fight off colonial rule. And I'm sorry, but I'm with Locke on this one. if the people are not happy with the goverment, they are allowed to try to replace it, that does not make them evil.

    Besides, in ANH it is pretty much admitted that the only reason they are blowing up Alderaan is because they needed to set an example. And the choice of Alderaan seemed a lot more motivated by trying to get information out of Leia than because they thought it was a problem.
  21. danjoke Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    >>By the way, for me and my friends here in Spain the way of act of Palpatine reflects exactly the way of thought of president Bush.


    That is absolutely ridiculous and you have no knowledge of how America works if you really believe this.

    Bush went to both houses of Congress to get their backing to invade Iraq. Clinton did no such thing in Bosnia.

    Bush went to the UN and got a vote of 15-0 in the security council for serious consequences for failure to abide by resolution 1441. Clinton never went to the UN for Bosnia.

    I can go on and on and on.

    Your thoughts betray your hatred for the president. That is fine. You dont like him? I could care less if you do. but to say he is emperor palpatine, while your country and the rest of Europe did absolutely nothing in Kosovo or Bosnia, and again our president acted for you, but he didnt do half of the approval seeking that this president did is absolutely ridiculous!

    Try being a balanced human being and criticise everyone, including your own pansy ass country that just turned and ran away at terrorism. It is because of countries and leaders like yours, that the terrorists have become embolden to their cause.

    Go run and hid in Spain all you want. When you get invaded, I am sure you know the number to the white house, cause it will be us who come and save you pussies.

    I have only been on this board for two days, and I am now off it! I am simply disgusted by crap like this. I came to discuss Star Wars, not president Bush with a bunch of pussy spaniards!



  22. Sauron_18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2005
    star 4
    "That is absolutely ridiculous and you have no knowledge of how America works if you really believe this"


    The fact that you refer to the US as "America" is proof that you dont either, what arrogant comments you say



    And I think everyone has to admit that the empire was evil basically because it was run by the sith, during the NJO i found them to be pretty nice, a nation looks like its leader to the eyes of others,true or not, be it deceptive like some, evil like other, or benevolent like all should be
  23. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    And we dont know what happened after ROTJ.

    Yes we do. Go read the books. The Empire's policy of blowing the hell out of everyone they don't like is elucidated upon quite well in the literature.

    And the choice of Alderaan seemed a lot more motivated by trying to get information out of Leia than because they thought it was a problem.

    Well, Alderaan was a problem. And technically the Rebels were terrorists. Then again, so were the Founding Fathers, from a technical point of view. White male slave-owning terrorists. Doesn't make the ideal of democracy any less of a thing to aspire to, nor does it mitigate the Empire's reprehensible acts.

    Your thoughts betray your hatred for the president. That is fine. You dont like him? I could care less if you do. but to say he is emperor palpatine, while your country and the rest of Europe did absolutely nothing in Kosovo or Bosnia, and again our president acted for you, but he didnt do half of the approval seeking that this president did is absolutely ridiculous!

    Try being a balanced human being and criticise everyone, including your own pansy ass country that just turned and ran away at terrorism. It is because of countries and leaders like yours, that the terrorists have become embolden to their cause.

    Go run and hid in Spain all you want. When you get invaded, I am sure you know the number to the white house, cause it will be us who come and save you pussies.

    I have only been on this board for two days, and I am now off it! I am simply disgusted by crap like this. I came to discuss Star Wars, not president Bush with a bunch of pussy spaniards!


    ROFLCOPTER :p

    That was one of the most awesome flames I've ever seen. That was CLASSIC!

    It doesn't really make your case look good in a debate, but...well...ROFL!!!
  24. Sauron_18 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2005
    star 4
    "Please name an equal or greater amount of absolute bloody atrocities or plans to create absolute bloody atrocities that I mentioned above, and I'll believe that George Bush is a Sith Lord."


    Bush a sith lord? he can barely be a cowboy


    "Only a few Presidents have come anywhere close to being a millionth as bad as Palpatine was."

    Or as good for that matter
  25. alpha_red Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2003
    star 5
    Bush a sith lord? he can barely be a cowboy

    Exactly. I hate it in political debates when someone says Bush is the stupidest thing that ever walked on two legs and then states that he's the mastermind of some grand oil conspiracy. Morons can't be evil masterminds. Cowboy up and make up your damn mind, people.

    Or as good for that matter

    Ow. That's harsh. :p
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