The Empire is NOT bad....

They don`t want peace for people they want peace for themselves

 

Getting peace for themselves would naturally lead to peace throughout the galaxy. It isn't like they're two guys wanting to bring peace to their apartment building and nothing more.

Then those stupid rebels had to rock the boat with their dealistic democratic nonsense which is fine if you're talking about one planet, but not an entire galaxy.

Palpatine was the problem. Anakin/Vader was always rational (although I feel some of his summary executions were uncalled for) in his own mind. It wasn't like an lieutenant brings him a report two minutes later then he expected it, and he kills the poor guy. Vader only kills for what he perseives to be major screw-ups.

Palpatine was just a nihilistic animal.

 

Destroying the Jedi was a good thing. They were a stupid, corrupt oligarchy. They were a mystical cult. Brain-washing was part and parcel of Jedi indoctri--I mean training.

It isn't like these baby-snatchers where going to be training them to be doctors, where all that would be necessary is technical training.

The Republic entered into a dangerous pact with the Jedi. Not having a professional military and depending upon a group of mystics who do not have any loyalty to the Republic, but have a loyalty to this intangible "Force."

The Senate could not call "the will of the Force" to testify, which is what the Jedi ultimately claim they serve. What is to stop the Jedi from enforcing their own will behind a smoke-screen that it is the "will of the Force?"

There is no Senate oversight over Jedi training? The government has no one sitting in on Council sessions?


These are all very good points, I certainly agree with them, but I'm not sure they offer proof that the replacement of the Jedi and the Republic with the Sith and the Empire is in any way a better alternative.

If we look at a few examples from the OT at what the Empire does against non-rebels/neutrals we can see they aren't any better at all: the murder of the Jawas and Owen and Beru Lars over something they would have had no knowledge of (namely that their newly acquired R2 unit held the plans for the Death Star) and the deal-breaking and hostile takeover of Bespin after Vader had already achieved what he wanted there.

Also you can look at what the Empire does with its own people--Vader force chokes officers who fail him or insult him, and has no regard for the safety of his ships when he orders them to pursue the Falcon into the astroid field.

The Jedi are ascetic fundamentalists who have no love for anything of this world (which is a classic problem with priests of any order) and since they leave aside "attachments" to the living world they allow the institutions that the living must rely upon to be corrupted by greedy, selfish men like Palpatine and Vader. Both sides are morally bankrupt, which goes for the "democratic" Republic as well since it stood by while its members attacked each other and lacked any power of its own to establish law and order. Of what use is any regime that lacks the teeth to protect its own liberty?

Religious extremists, weak or stagnant rulers, power-hungry individuals and ham-handed bullies: not much to like in that galaxy.

 

I think both the Empire and the Republic are bad. With the fall of the Republic (a bloated, stagnant, corrupt, and decadent society), you go from the frying pan to the fire - the Empire (a Sith-led police state with limited personal liberties). I say no to both.

 

The Jedi are ascetic fundamentalists who have no love for anything of this world (which is a classic problem with priests of any order)

SO disagree with this. The Jedi are ascetics within their Order. They ask no one else to live like they do. Only those accepted into their Order follow their Code. And they do love. They have compassion for all living beings. Even Anakin says this.

and since they leave aside "attachments" to the living world they allow the institutions that the living must rely upon to be corrupted by greedy, selfish men like Palpatine and Vader.

Do they? Per the movie, they're already investigating Palpatine, tried to arrest him for the good of the Republic (i.e. the people). They're well aware of how they're being wielded.

And for fricking sake, get it through your heads people, PARENTS gave the Jedi their force-strong children, they were NOT kidnapped! How many times does this commonsense statement have to be said?!?! In case you missed it, they live in a Republic! How long would an organization last that allowed baby-snatching?! Jeez

 

SO disagree with this. The Jedi are ascetics within their Order. They ask no one else to live like they do. Only those accepted into their Order follow their Code. And they do love. They have compassion for all living beings. Even Anakin says this.


The first point is an irrelevant strawman since nowhere did I or the person I was quoting suggest that they enforced their codes upon people outside their order--it's what they do within their order and their allegiance to it that's problematic.

On the second point, compassion does not equal love. Compassion (cum + passus, "to suffer/endure with") is a form of self-love wherein one sees another who is suffering and mentally puts him or herself in that place, thus they can be said to "feel" the suffering of others as they themselves can identify with it. Love, however, is much more than that: in part it's being able to see the good in people and regarding that good as something more noble than your own good. And this is why Luke is better than any Jedi since he loved his father and saw that there was still good in him, even unto the brink of death.


Do they? Per the movie, they're already investigating Palpatine, tried to arrest him for the good of the Republic (i.e. the people). They're well aware of how they're being wielded.


Maybe I went too far with that statement, but note that the Jedi only became involved in the initial dispute once the Sith started to show signs of activity, and then after that to deal with one of their own who had fallen. They do investigate Palps in ROTS but ultimately it's because they sense he's clouded with the dark side of the Force.

If the Jedi really had the Republic in mind I really think they would have participated in its governance, but their chief interest was always in their view of the Force (i.e. their religion).

Edit:
And for fricking sake, get it through your heads people, PARENTS gave the Jedi their force-strong children, they were NOT kidnapped!


Maybe not kidnapped, but did the children ever have a choice to dedicate themselves to that religion? Was there ever a moment where, after passing a certain age when they can make their own decisions, that they can back out with no shame of being a failure or a "lost" Jedi? And people in our day are critical of parents who raise their kids to conform to whatever their religious beliefs are; well this seems a little more extreme.

 

SO disagree with this. The Jedi are ascetics within their Order. They ask no one else to live like they do. Only those accepted into their Order follow their Code. And they do love. They have compassion for all living beings. Even Anakin says this.

The first point is an irrelevant strawman since nowhere did I or the person I was quoting suggest that they enforced their codes upon people outside their order--it's what they do within their order and their allegiance to it that's problematic.

Alluding that they are 'fundamentalist' implies that you believe they have a unbendable Code and this leads to their 'not loving' anything of the real world. This is clearly not the case. See master of bending the rules Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan allowing his padawan all sorts of actions that would have been normally censured, the training of Anakin Skywalker.

On the second point, compassion does not equal love. Compassion (cum + passus, "to suffer/endure with") is a form of self-love wherein one sees another who is suffering and mentally puts him or herself in that place, thus they can be said to "feel" the suffering of others as they themselves can identify with it.

Not at all. Jedi most certainly can. They can sense other people's emotions through the Force (see Yoda feeling Anakin's pain, Ben Kenobi feeling the cries of the doomed on Alderaan) they have great empathy because they can and do share the feelings of other.

Love, however, is much more than that: in part it's being able to see the good in people and regarding that good as something more noble than your own good. And this is why Luke is better than any Jedi since he loved his father and saw that there was still good in him, even unto the brink of death.

Yeah, kinda. Love can be defined in all kinds of ways. Anakin defines compassion as a type of 'love' that is encouraged.

Do they? Per the movie, they're already investigating Palpatine, tried to arrest him for the good of the Republic (i.e. the people). They're well aware of how they're being wielded.

Maybe I went too far with that statement, but note that the Jedi only became involved in the initial dispute once the Sith started to show signs of activity, and then after that to deal with one of their own who had fallen. They do investigate Palps in ROTS but ultimately it's because they sense he's clouded with the dark side of the Force.

And your point? If Padme and Palpatine know the Senate is corrupt and only concerned their own individual needs in AOTC, betcha dollars to doughnuts the Jedi do too because they deal with the Senate every single day.

If the Jedi really had the Republic in mind I really think they would have participated in its governance, but their chief interest was always in their view of the Force (i.e. their religion).

Then they would become partisan. They serve the Republic, they don't run it.

 

I wondered this for a while too, but I have decided that peace does not equal freedom. I guess it's your personal coice:

peace or freedom?

 

>>I realized that the emipire is not bad. They also want peace.

huh?
Palpatine starts teh invasion of Naboo, which sets everything into motion.

Palpatine manipulated Amidala into a vote of no confidence to oust General Zod, er I mean Chancellor Vallorum.

I would think it is implied that Palpatine uses his sith power (like the jedi mind trick) to get elected chancellor.

Palpatine somehow get Siphodius (sp?) to order a clone army for the republic and then kills him, or orders a clone army under Siphodius' name, and then kills him.

Palpatine uses Dooku to start a separtist movement and create the need for an army to defend the republic

Palpatine manipulated Jar Jar into a vote into emergency powers so that he can create an army that he pre ordered 10 years earlier.

Palpatine manipulates both sides of the clone wars for however long they lasted.

Palpatine manipulates the senate by not giving up his powers when he should

Palpatine stages his own kidnapping and resue to add a feeling of losing to the republic since they attached the capital of Coruscant to kidnap him

Palpatine manipulates Anakin (maybe even planting the nightmares of Padme's death) to joining him on the dark side.

Palpatine makes everyone think the Jedi have turned against the republic

Palpatine takes over as Emperor, and creates the galactic empire to be ruled with fear and cooercion.

and all because Anakin kills the separtists at the end the empire is not evil?

I dont understand that at all.

The empire, palpatine, and dart vader are nothing but evil.

They are evil incarnate.

 

Having seen RotS I can now understand why Vader made such reckless military decisions. Its all perfectly consistent with his character. I had initially seen his decisions before and after Hoth as the actions of a military incompetent, a military hack like a commissar in the Red Army under Stalin or a National Socialist Leadership Officer in the spasmodic death throes of the Third Reich.

Before seeing the film, I had used the situation around Hoth--from killing Ozzel, to the persuit of the Falcon through the asteroid field up to the execution of Needa--and characterized them as the acts of an uncaring madman.

Now I see that the problem is one of Vader caring to an excess. He has a big hole in his heart that can only be filled by family: either his mother, his wife or his son; had he known about Leia, his unilaterally changing the deal he dictated to Lando would have also been perfectly consistent. He lost his mother, he lost his wife, and he wasn't about to lose his son too.

Just a small deviation here. I see no split personality in Anakin and Vader. Anakin=Vader; Vader=Anakin. Anakin believed in dictatorship; so did Vader. Anakin loved his family; so did Vader. Anakin wants stability and order; so does Vader. And if they are trult two seperate identities, why would Vader give a damn if Padme is dead or alive? Palpatine=Sidious; Anakin=Vader.

Surely Vader knew he was dying before he threw Palpatine over the railing down into the reactor shaft. He didn't do it to destroy the Sith--just doesn't make sense based on his character--he did it to save his son, he knew he was going to perish on the DS 2; he didn't want Luke to share in that fate. He wanted the child he truly knew to be able to have something he hadn't had since he was 9: happiness and if that means stringing him along with your dying breaths that you're redeemed blah, blah, blah, then so be it. Vader was a crafty fellow.

Imagine how unhappy and melancholy Luke would be if his father gave him nothing to believe in; Luke was used to lapping up lies and gullibly believing them anyway. Then Luke would have been as lost as Anakin was.

 

Alluding that they are 'fundamentalist' implies that you believe they have a unbendable Code and this leads to their 'not loving' anything of the real world. This is clearly not the case. See master of bending the rules Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan allowing his padawan all sorts of actions that would have been normally censured, the training of Anakin Skywalker.

Yes, and notice that Yoda and the rest of the Council won't allow Qui-Gon to train the boy, nor do they easily assent to his training even though it was Qui-Gon's dying wish (Obi-Wan basically has to threaten doing it on his own). Qui-Gon is kept off the Council because of his divergent, often disobedient views.

Not at all. Jedi most certainly can. They can sense other people's emotions through the Force (see Yoda feeling Anakin's pain, Ben Kenobi feeling the cries of the doomed on Alderaan) they have great empathy because they can and do share the feelings of other.

Well, this is the difficulty of relating to Force users since that kind of supernatural empathy doesn't exist in reality and as such renders moot any discussion of what compassion is within the Star Wars universe. Regardless, I still contend that literally feeling someone else's pain isn't the same as loving them: to love someone you really have to know them, and that takes more than just feeling.

And your point? If Padme and Palpatine know the Senate is corrupt and only concerned their own individual needs in AOTC, betcha dollars to doughnuts the Jedi do too because they deal with the Senate every single day.

I'm not saying they don't see it's corrupt, they clearly do, but do they actually do anything about the Senate? Seems like at best they complain about it (Obi-Wan's diatribe against politicians), and at worst act outside the rule of law (Mace taking his Jedi posse to go kill Palps).

They serve the Republic, they don't run it.

I thought they served the will of the Force.


Edit:
Now I see that the problem is one of Vader caring to an excess. He has a big hole in his heart that can only be filled by family: either his mother, his wife or his son; had he known about Leia, his unilaterally changing the deal he dictated to Lando would have also been perfectly consistent. He lost his mother, he lost his wife, and he wasn't about to lose his son too.

Okay, fair enough, but the results of his actions are still the same regardless of whether he does it out of excess love or out of malice, incompetence or whatever. It's simply bad policy to attack neutrals or kill your loyal subordinates, often with bad results (Lando, a former neutral, leads the attack on DS II for example).

 

ITS ONLY A ******** MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYONE RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ITS ONLY A ******** MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYONE RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ITS ONLY A ******** MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYONE RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ITS ONLY A ******** MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYONE RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

We are all fans. Fan is short for fanatic.

No offense, but such a comment just makes you sound like a casual movie-goer who wouldn't know the difference between a Hutt or a Rodian.

Of course its just a movie, but this episode reveals that very little seperates the Jedi and the Sith. They're both extremely Machiavellian.

Edit:

I have strongly argued that killing Ozzel was a serious error inn judgment. Vader just didn't kill some enlisted crewer that may have given him some bad news, he summarily executed a Fleet Admiral right before his forces would be engaging in battle.

It was still a stupid move, but now I understand it wasn't the act of an irrational madman. It was a perfectly rational calculation made based upon Anakin's personality over two prior decades.

 

I am sorry i dont sit at my computer all day and analize wat connections star wars has with history and the bush administration....yea i did vote for bush....and damn proud of it....you all need to relax...this post was a joke...i made this clear yesterday....i am scared that one of you 30 year old nerds living with your parents in your basement are going to go crazy about it...ps yall need to get some action and get out sometime...

 

MZEATCSH posted "After watching the movie last night...I realized that the emipire is not bad. They also want peace. The only reason they are "bad" is because of the way Lucas directs your view on the JEDI. Don't get me wrong I love yoda and obi..but I still loved ANAKIN at the end of the movie (Before the suit but killing the sepertist)...I never figured out the moment when Anakin turned...It could have been when Mace was killed but I wasn't convinced of that at that particular moment."

YEah, and Hitler, Stalin, and Napoleon wanted "peace" in Europe but on their terms. Lucas' view is the moral view that he wants to share with us the audience.

 

DID YOU NOT HEAR ME!!!! I POSTED THIS AS A JOKE! YALL NEED TO CHILL ABOUT IT OK!? YOU NEED A FREAKIN LIFE

 

I'm a history major. This sort of analysis comes naturally to me. And I'm done with classes till September, so I have a lot of time on my hands.

 

LOL. I figured it was either ignorance or sarcasm! You handled yourself well in your reply to me considering I didn't attack you personally.

 

HAHA DID YOU TAKE THE CLASS ONLINE IN YOUR MOMS BASEMENT?

I DONT CARE IF IT COMES NATURAL TO YOU...IT WAS A JOKE TAHT I POSTED THIS!!!!


**** *****

 

Exactly!

All they did was blow up a planet!

 

L-O-S-E-R-S

 

Alluding that they are 'fundamentalist' implies that you believe they have a unbendable Code and this leads to their 'not loving' anything of the real world. This is clearly not the case. See master of bending the rules Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan allowing his padawan all sorts of actions that would have been normally censured, the training of Anakin Skywalker.

Yes, and notice that Yoda and the rest of the Council won't allow Qui-Gon to train the boy, nor do they easily assent to his training even though it was Qui-Gon's dying wish (Obi-Wan basically has to threaten doing it on his own).

But they do allow it.

Qui-Gon is kept off the Council because of his divergent, often disobedient views.

Yet he is not prevented from becoming a Jedi and a master and reputedly one of the best of the Temple.

Not at all. Jedi most certainly can. They can sense other people's emotions through the Force (see Yoda feeling Anakin's pain, Ben Kenobi feeling the cries of the doomed on Alderaan) they have great empathy because they can and do share the feelings of other.

Well, this is the difficulty of relating to Force users since that kind of supernatural empathy doesn't exist in reality and as such renders moot any discussion of what compassion is within the Star Wars universe.

Since we were talking about GFFA it's quite clear that compasssion is best for the Jedi instead of love.

Regardless, I still contend that literally feeling someone else's pain isn't the same as loving them: to love someone you really have to know them, and that takes more than just feeling.

Yes, but in reality you can never really 'know' anyone. You can only think you can as millions of divorced people can tell you. In the real world you can only really know yourself.

And your point? If Padme and Palpatine know the Senate is corrupt and only concerned about their own individual needs in AOTC, betcha dollars to doughnuts the Jedi do too because they deal with the Senate every single day.

I'm not saying they don't see it's corrupt, they clearly do, but do they actually do anything about the Senate?

And what do you do in a democracy? You investigate charges of corruption and if evidence is sufficient you bring them to light and make charges. That we don't see the Jedi doing it, doesn't mean that they don't.

and at worst act outside the rule of law (Mace taking his Jedi posse to go kill Palps).

Actually they went there to arrest Palpatine in the name of the Republic Senate - which they are supposed to do (we are keepers of the peace). What Palpatine did is called 'resisting arrest', 'assault with a deadly weapon', 'murder'. Mace and the others were well within their rights to respond with deadly force.

They serve the Republic, they don't run it.

I thought they served the will of the Force.

They do both, hence the conflict. The Force ain't paying their bills.

 

YOUR MOM PAYS THE BILLS YOU LOSER!!!!!


GET SOME ACTION MEN

YOU ARENT GOING TO GET WITH PRINCESS LEIA OR PADME!!!

 

MZEATCSH,

First, how old are you? Did you sneak onto the computer without Mommy or Daddy's permission? I was gracious enough in my reply to even crack a joke at my expense and you reply with profanity.

Riddle me this: Who is more pathetic . . . a fan discussing what he got out of a film or someone just posting a topic that I have been reflecting a lot upon since seeing RotS as a joke and then rudely insulting those of us who find the question to be of considerable importance and worthy of a lengthy discussion?

And no serious individual majoring in the Humanities or Sciences would ever take a course online. They just don't have enough academic "street cred" to be taken seriously by mainstream academia.

 

Good Reply, Admiral.