THE EMPIRE REBORN....ugghh for a couple days that is.

Is it just me? Or are the Imp's in all the SW Books post Grand Admiral Thrawn all weak and stupid?!

HETHRIR??? PLEASE!

 

I'd certainly include Thrawn in that mix too. In 1991 he set the standard for weakness and stupidity for the rest to follow - something which they've done rather well.

 

THey were all power hungry idiots with a fleet at their backs. Most got their jobs through connections with Palpatine and not actual skill, and those who did have skill at one time(Daala)languished and lost their edge.

 

Actually I'd disagree with that Gengis12. Thrawn was the only Imperial except (arguably) Palpatine who left the Empire stronger after his death then when he found it. At the end of The Last Command the Empire has gained considerable ground for negligble loss in men and material. When Zsjni died he took a large portion the empire with him. Ysaard lost Coruscant on a plan that went arwy. Daala was indirectly behind the loss of Carida and even Pellaeon only managed to loose more slowly than the others.

The Empire that Thrawn left was a stable , powerful, viable warmachine and goverment which had fought the New Rebuplic too a virtual stalement. The offensive died with Thrawn, not his Empire.

Yours

~Ross

 

Emperor Palpatine mostly wanted to have ruthless and violent men in his empire, that way he could use them to punish the galaxy and brutally enforce his laws,Grand Moff Tarkin was the perfect example of this ruthlessly slaughtering those that opposed the New Order.

 

I have to disagree Ghenghis. I know you absolutely hate Zahn, but besides SOTME and the trilogy novelizations, the Thrawn trilogy was my first taste of the EU when I was 14, and it made my jaw drop. I guess I was at the perfect age to really get the impact and not worry about any of the plotholes etc. I thought Thrawn was a genius.

In fact, when I first read HttE, his tactics stunned me so much, that it reminded me of ESB when Han thinks he got away from the Star Destroyers, and then Fett was there in the garbage and trails him without anyone being the wiser...

I mean, there's way worse SW authors. I'm sure you've done it before, but can you say exactly the reasons you hate Zahn, and what your opinions are of others, like Hambly, KJA, Rusch etc.? I'd be interested in seeing your thoughts.

 

Trust me, you don't want to get Genghis started on Zahn. Better to limit things to specific complaints about Thrawn.

 

one word- pallaeon.

 

Alright, a whole lot of people brought up a lot of points. First off, Dev speaks much wisdom...
"Trust me, you don't want to get Genghis started on Zahn. Better to limit things to specific complaints about Thrawn."

Agreed. And first off, we have to address RNolan's points as they're a part of this...
"The Empire that Thrawn left was a stable , powerful, viable warmachine and goverment which had fought the New Rebuplic too a virtual stalement. The offensive died with Thrawn, not his Empire."

The Empire Thran left was much more unstable than the one he came in to. We know that things were bad, but they weren't at the point of all-out civil war:
"Grand Admiral Thrawn's huge success was limited to retaking terrirtory, not uniting the Empire itself. Instead of reuniting the disparate elements of the Empire, the UNFINISHED VICTORY ONLY SERVED TO PUSH THEM FURTHER APART..." (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 35)

Thrawn led the dawn of a new Imperial low as his complete and utter failure as an Imperial leader threw the remaining shreds of the Empire into complete civil war. But, only now, he gave the New Republic a major victory as well as clueing them in to the Emperor's secret storehouses, he facilitated the New Republic gaining a whole new species of hardened warriors - the Noghri - which they've used to safeguard Princess Leia for years now.

Sturm...
"I have to disagree Ghenghis. I know you absolutely hate Zahn..."

Not at all, he's written some very good short stories for the Star Wars Adventure Journal.

"I guess I was at the perfect age to really get the impact and not worry about any of the plotholes etc. I thought Thrawn was a genius."

Yes, like a whole lot of new fans which Zhan brought in to the Star Wars universe in 1991. However, Thrawn is a genius in only the same way that Daala is a genius - we are told that they are a genius by outside observers. Therefore, despite everything to the contrary, we have to take the words of observers despite all signs pointing to the opposite. I have a serious problem in literature using such parlor tricks.

"I mean, there's way worse SW authors. I'm sure you've done it before, but can you say exactly the reasons you hate Zahn..."

I dislike Zahn's Star Wars novels for a number of reasons. Most of them parallel those who submitted reasons as to why they think he has fallen out of favour in the thread "Why Has Zahn Fallen Out of Favour!?!" I'll try and dig up a link to it.

"...and what your opinions are of others, like Hambly, KJA, Rusch etc.? I'd be interested in seeing your thoughts."

I think the quality of all the Bantam Star Wars novels is about equal from Zahn to Jeter to Hambly to Rusch. Take that as you will.

 

NOOOOOOO!...You got him started!!!...and he even went so far as to compare Zahn and jeter (*! i spit at his name!)...and hambly! AGGH!

i think that Thrawn may not have been the imperial leader to leave the empire lessened least durring his rein......i mean, daala killed a few morons(leaving the leaders(albeit bad ones but leaders none the less) dead), destroy her four star destroyers and allow info about the Maw to become revealed and be destroyed.........Prune Butt reborn regrouped some forces, but ending up with the two largest weapons he had (Eclipse class star destroyer and Galaxy Gun) working together to destroy his planet base of operations and most of the imperial fleet......and most others did something between those two.........Thrawn did give the Empire somewhere near 200 Dreadnauts so he helped more then any of them...but he also lost them quite a lot......so in my opinion Pallaeon, was the most useful Imperial leader......durring Thrawn's era he didn't do a whole lot...however...in the Hand of Thrawn duo and onwards he brought stability and peace to the Empire...by that time, he could see that further offencive action, or even continued active defenceive actions, would only weaken it futher so he ended the war that had gone on too long(Decades before the movie, to decades after...).........had he not done that, some other leader would have led the Remnant on some damned fool crusade and destroyed what was left......

 

You forget that Palpatine Reborn was actually the worst of them all. He delivered the death stroke to the Empire. Twice. After the Endor death, a lot of the power-hungry individuals took much of the Empire for their own, leaving weaker leaders like Sate Pestage in charge. Ysanne Isard took quite a bit of it back and gave some strong-arm order, but the damage was done. In all this confusion, the absolutely puny surviving members of the Rebels were able to mount a on-going political/military campaign to take 30 % of the old Empire.

Flash forward three years. The clone declares he's been there all along, yet he's allowed his enemies to gain a lot of ground. After a miraculous alliance saved the Republic from the near-death Isard brought them to, managing to even defeat the crafty warlord Zsinj, the NR has continually being pushing at the Imperial loyalists, unaware that Thrawn was regrouping Imperial forces for a great campaign, which once began, rocked the Republicans and stripped them of their spirit. After Thrawn's death, their moral-boosting/warning to the warlords attack on Delak Krennel did not proceed exactly as planned. At this point, the clone has quietly taken command of Thrawn's forces and ordered an all-out attack on Coruscant, forcing the Republicans/Rebels to retreat, thus destroying their power base. Suddenly fractured, the most influential political leaders and the loyal units of the Republic military join together to keep up the fight in a Rebel Alliance-style command.

At this point, victory is at hand for the Empire. All it has to do is attack and destroy the Republic loyalists then the rest of the galaxy would be more or less helpless. However, instead the clone allows the divided forces on Coruscant to enter a Civil War with each other. He kidnaps Jedi hero Luke Skywalker and shows him his military dictatorship and forces in the heavily guarded Deep Core. Skywalker joins forces with him, then betrays and kills him and begins recruiting Jedi for battle with the Emperor and his servants. The clone returns. Instead of taking full command of his forces, he decides to wage a private war against the Skywalkers and their Jedi allies. He even personally goes to there stronghold where he is killed again and a Jedi Knight gives his life to prevent him returning. Whoops.

But even with the Imperials at each other's throats, the Rebels would not have been able to re-establish themselves, except for one important factor. The stupid clone left his vast and newly acquired forces and factories and resources in the Deep Core open. After a renegade Guardsman kills the surviving Dark Jedi leader, and a Yuuzhan Vong agent destroys the same Dark-Sider's political faction, the Deep Core is open to any one who wants it. With systems flocking to help the Rebels and so many warlords moving in to take control over the Core, the New Republic comes out on top, destroying the remaining Imperial forces, retaking Coruscant and guarding the Core to prevent the warlords from leaving. Once trapped together, they begin a mighty struggle for supremacy,that could never be completely resolved. Thus, the New Republic has the ability to rebuild itself and gain dominance in the galaxy. That i consider to be the worst flop in Imperial history and one that ultimately dooms the war effort.

 

Looks like Genghis12 beat me to the Empire immediately following Thrawn's death. And I was going to be the one to point to the Imperial Civil War, or so I thought. Oh well.

 

Ghengis12:"Agreed. And first off, we have to address RNolan's points as they're a part of this...
"The Empire that Thrawn left was a stable , powerful, viable warmachine and goverment which had fought the New Rebuplic too a virtual stalement. The offensive died with Thrawn, not his Empire."

The Empire Thran left was much more unstable than the one he came in to. We know that things were bad, but they weren't at the point of all-out civil war:
"Grand Admiral Thrawn's huge success was limited to retaking terrirtory, not uniting the Empire itself. Instead of reuniting the disparate elements of the Empire, the UNFINISHED VICTORY ONLY SERVED TO PUSH THEM FURTHER APART..." (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 35)"

After the events of the Courtship of Princess Leia the Empire enjoyed a small scale civil war over the territory left by Zsinj (sp). This is inferred at the end of COPL (pg 363):

"The monster has one less head," Leia said.
"Yeah," Han said, "now that the papa shark is dead, all the little baby sharks will have to start gobbling each other."
"And pretty soon, there will be a lot fewer sharks," Leia said.
Han added,"And in the meantime, the New Republic can rush into zsinj's old territory and take a few hundred star systems out of their hands."

Now while all this is merely the guesswork of a couple of clearly biased characters the evidence is quite strong that this indeed what happened as while it is mentenioned that the Empire is in control of a third of the galaxay in COPL by Heir to the Empire this has dwindled to barely a quarter of their former territories. it is of course possible that this impressive advance was achieved entirely by NR effort against the warlords but it is rather more likely that Hans thinking actually happened. What all this indicates is that the Empire was actually in the early stages (at least) of a de facto civil war. At worst then Thrawn merely delayed the civil war - he didn't cause it. The civl war was clearly unavoidable after Zsinj.

Ammended by this line of thought the extract you quoted could be read to mean that after a (brief) period of reunification under Thrawn the warlords where driven apart again. That is to say they are further apart than they where under Thrawn but EQUALLY at odds as in the pre-Thrawn period. All of this suggests is Thrawn in fact did achieve a somewhat hapazard stability that was sacrificed by his succesors. He did not create this instability by his death.


"Thrawn led the dawn of a new Imperial low as his complete and utter failure as an Imperial leader threw the remaining shreds of the Empire into complete civil war. But, only now, he gave the New Republic a major victory as well as clueing them in to the Emperor's secret storehouses, he facilitated the New Republic gaining a whole new species of hardened warriors - the Noghri - which they've used to safeguard Princess Leia for years now."

Thrawn not only didn't cause the civil war (see above) he greatly increased the power of the Imperial factions and made a New Republic victory far less likely. When Zsinj died the NR was in charge of most of the former Empire and clearly winning the war. when Thrawn when the Empire had sufficent strength to recapture Coruscant and shatter the NR. The Empire is in chaos at the beginng of Dark Empire but it is the chaos of victors not loosers. The NR is no longer more powerful than all the warlords combiened and it is at least hinted that should one of the factions have triumphed they would have little trouble in fighting the NR.

Palpatines treasure vaults appear to have been throughly unknown to most pre-Thrawn Imperials, and if known were completely unsused. The loss of them was unfortunate for the Empire, but considering the feeble degree to which they had been used pre-Thrawn or while under NR control it can hardly be described as a major victory. More an Empire blunder. The New Republic is at least daft enough to have destroyed most of it at once.

There is little evidence that the Noghri are a common species in the Thrawn Trilogy - quite the o

 

Genghis - Thrawn led the dawn of a new Imperial low as his complete and utter failure as an Imperial leader threw the remaining shreds of the Empire into complete civil war.

Utter failure, eh? Retaking a major portion of space territory and bringing the NR to cower behind the shield on Coruscant...

But, only now, he gave the New Republic a major victory as well as clueing them in to the Emperor's secret storehouses, he facilitated the New Republic gaining a whole new species of hardened warriors - the Noghri - which they've used to safeguard Princess Leia for years now.

Thrawn wasnt' responsable for clueing the Rebels into the store house, that was Mara Jade.

Yes, like a whole lot of new fans which Zhan brought in to the Star Wars universe in 1991. However, Thrawn is a genius in only the same way that Daala is a genius - we are told that they are a genius by outside observers.

So we should have first person Thrawn stories? Yes, I would love to have that. Then again, we should have first person from everyone to understand why they are heros. Luke looks like one... but really, we dont know, we've been told this..... WHAT?!?

Therefore, despite everything to the contrary, we have to take the words of observers despite all signs pointing to the opposite. I have a serious problem in literature using such parlor tricks.

Thats called writing. What book doesn't use this? Personal preferences maybe dictate your likes and dislikes, but I enjoyed it.

I think the quality of all the Bantam Star Wars novels is about equal from Zahn to Jeter to Hambly to Rusch. Take that as you will.

Wow, maybe Im strange, but I enjoyed a majority of the Bantam novels.

Personally, Im sick of seeing your constant attacks on Tim Zahn's novels. Yes, even I admit there are errors and that some things the editors could have changed, and that we are entitled to our own opinions, but your attacks on the TTT and HoT are really bothering.

 

Remember that the books are made for enjoyment, not to be critiqued by SW gooroo's.

Ths is a little off-subject. Bring it to a new thread.

 

The Empire Thran left was much more unstable than the one he came in to. We know that things were bad, but they weren't at the point of all-out civil war:
"Grand Admiral Thrawn's huge success was limited to retaking terrirtory, not uniting the Empire itself. Instead of reuniting the disparate elements of the Empire, the UNFINISHED VICTORY ONLY SERVED TO PUSH THEM FURTHER APART..." (Dark Empire Sourcebook, p. 35)

Weren't the sourcebooks recently given the Infinities label?

 

"forget that Palpatine Reborn was actually the worst of them all. He delivered the death stroke to the Empire. "


Uhm,At the end of Dark Empire the ENTIRE Empire has reaffirmed it's allegiance to Palpatine.The weak and stupid had been culled from the Empire's ranks.

During Empire's End the Rebellion is near total defeat.Most of the Galaxy is once again under the Empire's control.

Why did he go after Anakin?He was dying.The Empire COULD NOT exist without him.

And Byss was not left undefended.It's just too bad that that suicide plan devised by Lando Calrissian succeded.The Rebs snuck onto the Eclipse II in the middle of a battle.Artoo reprogrammed the Eclipse's nav computer.The Eclipse jumped to Byss and crashed into the Imperial Galaxy Gun just as it was being loaded.The gun misfired,and the Galaxy Gun's projectile hit Byss.

And rto think..the Rebels had just intended to take out the Galaxy Gun!But instead they take out Byss!Man what luck!

Once again the Rebels had luck on their side.

(I can just imagine what the other Jedi said to Palpatine has they directed his spirit to the madness of the Dark Side "Ain't life a bitch?" )

 

Nope...the source books aren't infinities.

Sorry.

 

In my opinion, the only "true" Infinities is anything that goes against the films, such as Infinities ANH, and Vader vs. Maul.

Even then, I consider some of that stuff to be in my continuity, such as the shuttle Tarquinas and the Jedi Council Temple being turned into some kind of Imperial palace.

 

The guy who did te most damage....Carnor Jax of course.

He poisoned the Emperor's clones and basically brought about the collapse of the Empire.

If it weren't for him the Emperor would've never gone to Onderon for Anakin,and Lando wouldn't have had access to the EclipseII.

 

Nope...the source books aren't infinities.

Okay.

//Runs away before Genghis comes back.//

 

Why can't we just use some of these forum frequenters much vaunted abilities at retconning and whataboutery to 'fix' that Dark Empire quote. If we take gengis's line it at best violates the spirit of a passage from COPL. My take on it is not only more logical in light of the defeat of zsinj, but also more agreeable all round - except of course to rabid Thrawn haters.

Yours

~Ross

 

It's worth noting that Thrawn and Palpatine had different goals, and looking at long term effects. The results of Palpatine's work were gone within a few years. Even though Thrawn didn't win, he accomplished his goal of bringing order to the galaxy. The documents found in the Hand of Thrawn prevented a civil war. His student, Pellaeon, was able to prevent the Empire and Republic from tearing each other apart. Were it not for Thrawn, the Imperials and Rebels near the Outer Rim would have practically destroyed each other, leaving it open to the Vong.

 

Palpatine's work was only meant to last as long as HE was around.Palpatine had intended the Galaxy to die with should he fail.

The Empire was supposed to collapse into total civil war and plunge the galaxy into chaos.

Luckily the bulk of the Imperial forces were destroyed at Byss.

 

Well actually Thrawn made trhe civil war worse.You see before Thrawn the legitamate heirs of the Empire(well as legitamate as you could get....Palpatine left no heirs ),the Moffs,the Grand Moffs,COMPNOR,the Inquisitorious,the UBIQTORATE....all worked together to preserve what was left of the Empire.The "Galactic Empire" held their own against the NR,and rogue warlords like Zsinj,Krennel,Harrsk,Terradoc etc etc.

Thrawn's victories though,drove those organizations apart.The Empire was on the verge of success once again,and everyone wanted a piece of the pie.COMPNOR turned against the Moffs,the MOffs turned againt the military and COMPNOR,everyone turned against the Inquisitorious,and the Inquisitorious turned against everyone.In fact they started an Inquisition and put Imperial officers on trial.It would be accurate to say,that for a short time after Thrawn's death,the Galactic Empire ceased to exist as it collapsed into FULL-SCALE civil war.

All that according to the Dark Empire sourcebook.