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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

THE EMPIRE REBORN....ugghh for a couple days that is.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BOOSTERERRANT, Jul 22, 2001.

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  1. Orion_Star

    Orion_Star Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2001
    Three things, maybe four:

    1) A complete hatred for the NR, its heroes, and all it stands for.

    2) The power and resources necessary to topple, no, CRUSH it.

    3) The means and opportunity to utilize those resources.

    4) and COMPLETE control over said resources.

    Thrawn didn't hate the NR. It was simply in the way of his goals, therefore it needed to be elliminated. The hatred that the Emperor had for the rebels wasn't carried over to most of his underlings.

    Others, such as Isard and maybe even Zsinj, had the resources necessary to crush the NR, but lacked both the hatred necessary to fully live up to their villianious potential and the means, opportunity and level of control necessary to do the job right, thus they failed, both in their endeavors, and in our ability to appreciate them as true villians on Palpatinisitic scale.

    Palpy is almost... one of a kind, I'm afraid. Perhaps if there was more individual Vong character development we'd have another true villian instead of a collective race of droid hating nasties, but such is not the case.
     
  2. Sreya

    Sreya Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2000
    Oooooooo.... You know, that hatred comment is really a good one. Especially for Star Wars. If you look at the movies, there really was a lot in there about the stronger emotions we have. Love, hate, anger, despair...

    Oh, wow, you've touched on something that I hadn't even begun to think of. Thank you for that bit of insight!

    How about anyone else? I promise to share my ideas later this evening, right now I'm about 10 minutes away from going home from work, so I don't have the time to really think out the ideas.

    Sreya
    (gosh, this is getting good!)
     
  3. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    "Of all those who stood at the head of The Empire, it is the two Interim Council chairmen---Lord Jax "


    Maybe that should be Lumiya,Jax,and Carivus.

    *ahem*according to the revisionist history in Gamer 5 anyway...

    Vader trained Lumiya as a Sith Lord.Lumiya trained Jax,and it's quite possible that she was the mastermind behind Palpatine's downfall.She was Jax's master after all.
     
  4. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2000
    Palpatine was nothing more than a Hitlerian tyrant. Him and his precious superweapons and this pathological hatred of the rebels. The man only understood force. He utterly failed to attempt to use diplomacy to acheive his goals--not like the rebels would have negotiated, but still.

    Palpatine was most certainly an idiot. The rebels couild have been irradicated at Endor if he had given Piett orders to engage the rebel fleet with his Star Destroyers. Palpatine was the greatest bungler in Imperial history.

    And his contineously being resurrected was done by a comic book writer who couldn't come up with a villain of his own.

    And Thrawn only had one problem: an intelligence one. A very important piece of information that he did not know: the fact that Luke has a sister. Other than that, his operational plans more or less went like clockwork, although he hadn't anticipiated just how ambitious and mad C'Baoth was, but Thrawn certainly could have dealt with the insane Jedi or leak information to the NR as to his whereabouts and let them take care of him.
     
  5. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    ...

    Palpatine created the Empire...he toppled the Old Republic...

    Thrawn would not have served under an idiot.
     
  6. Orion_Star

    Orion_Star Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2001
    True, the fleet Palpatine had assembled at Endor could have and SHOULD have crushed the Rebellion in orbit over the sanctuary moon. However, the fact that Palpatine did not commit those resources to combat is not unintelligent idiocy.

    Those Star Destroyers were there for ONE purpose: to prevent the Rebels from escaping while the shielded Death Star reduced their fleet to atoms. As Luke said, Palpatine's overconfidence (in himself, his shielded and therefore invincible Death Star, and Vader's immutability) was his weakness. This does not make him an idiot, it makes him overconfident. Pride. It's a killer.

    Palpatine was overly confident that his legion on the ground would keep Solo, his wookie, Leia Organa, a dozen Infiltrators, and two droids out of that bunker. They did. Palpatine just didn't count on three legions of Ewoks and the strength of rebel spirit.

    That the rebels succeeded is a tribute to both luck (or the Force) and their fighting spirit, not a failure on Palpatine's part. He had more than enough men on the ground to keep those shields up, thus preventing it's destruction by Antilles and those pesky starfighters.

    Meanwhile, their main hope, Skywalker, is in his hands and since he didn't ever think Vader would betray him, Skywalker will turn or die. Problem number two, solved.

    Third, the fleet he assembled will be able to keep the rebel fleet in place while the operational Death Star, (the true operational state of which was masterfully kept from Rebel intelligence) reduces the stirling rebel fleet to nothing more than atoms and space debris. A sound plan, just based on faulty intelligence. Intelligence he could not have had. The man was only human and was remarkably effective while he was alive.

    But, to quote Corran Horn, "I'll remember that the next time I dance on his grave."
     
  7. The Tears of Palpatine

    The Tears of Palpatine Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2000
    ------
    Palpatine was nothing more than a Hitlerian tyrant. Him and his precious superweapons and this pathological hatred of the rebels. The man only understood force. He utterly failed to attempt to use diplomacy to acheive his goals--not like the rebels would have negotiated, but still.
    ------

    HIM The Emperor was not at all like der Reichskanzler. If you think that he is, you are obviously ignorant of HIM The Emperor, or of Adolf Hitler, or of both.

    Der Reichskanzler was a petty, bourgeois fanatic with a golden tongue and a warped view of reality. He was an obessive little man, with no true sense of politics---he was a vulgar man, with vulgar tastes, and pedestrian talents. He possessed no finesse, no true skill. He simply screamed at the top of his lungs and was a callous bully.

    HIM The Emperor is a horse of a different colour, so to speak. HIM The Emperor was a first class grand strategist, a master of psychology and psychological warfare. He was a masterful manipulator, a puppeteer with such consummate skill that his puppets could not even see their strings.

    Look at the glowing descriptions of Senator Palpatine in the pre-Empire era. He was a popular political theorist---his essays were required reading at prestigious universities. He is a masterful orator, not some shrieking demagogue.

    Indeed, your description of HIM The Emperor is exactly opposite to the truth---HIM The Emperor is a chess player on a galactic level. Observe the brilliance of his scheme to gain the supreme chancellery: Not only was he handed the reins of power, he did not even appear to desire them---remember, this is the selfsame senator who declined appointment after appointment to important posts and committees.

    Indeed, subtlety is the order of the day for HIM The Emperor. Not crude use of engines of destruction.

    Pathological hatred of the rebels? Whence does this come? In Return of the Jedi, HIM The Emperor calls makes reference to the "insignificant rebellion." He brushes aside reports of its activities: It is of no concern.

    If anything, HIM The Emperor is guilty of exactly the opposite---he has not the slightest regard for the rebels. The only thing about the rebel Alliance that concerned HIM The Emperor was the presence of Commander Skywalker. That---and that alone---was enough to bring the Supreme Dark Monarch out of seclusion to personally oversee the final strokes of the trap.

    As you say, the rebels would never have negotiated. Why, then, should diplomacy be used? The rebel Alliance was a terrorist entity. It is not the policy of legitimate governments to deal with terrorists. How often do you think that terrorist cells receive state visits from autocrats plenipotentiary?

    Use of superweapons? Do you then consider General MacArthur to have been a National-Socialist style despot?

    Do not forget that it is this selfsame man who created the most powerful government that the galaxy has ever known. It was he who built the New Order. It was he who was the architect of the Galactic Empire. It was he whom the Imperial Starfleet served. It was to him that the grand admirals swore fealty.

    If such brilliant minds as Grand Admiral Thrawn, Mme. Director Isard, HE The Grand Vizier, and the other grand admirals swore their allegiance to HIM The Emperor, surely he must be something infinitely greater than a mere bourgeois thug?

    ------
    Palpatine was most certainly an idiot. The rebels couild have been irradicated at Endor if he had given Piett orders to engage the rebel fleet with his Star Destroyers. Palpatine was the greatest bungler in Imperial history.
    ------

    The ambush at Endor was designed not to crush the rebel fleet---that was merely a bonus, a beneficial by-product. The true impact of the ambush was the psychological effect on Commander Skywalker. It was designed to drive him to despair and hopelessness.

    Fleet Admiral Piett's sole purpose at the Battle of Endor was to prevent the rebel fleet from leaving prior to the firing of the MAW. Once this was accomplished, HIM
     
  8. skawookiee

    skawookiee Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2000
    Wow. I'm impressed. TOP, you certainly know your stuff. You also have a way with words.
     
  9. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    Bravo Tears,Bravo.

     
  10. DaJames

    DaJames Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2000
    Thrawn's fatal mistake was not overconfidence, it was indeed an intelligence issue. The vital nugget of information, the one item which Delta Source had not picked up because it was kept dead secret. The fact that Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo were the children of Darth Vader. Thrawn knew he had the absolute authority over the Noghri because Vader gave it to him. He may have suspected a Republic insertion onto Honoghr, but he knew that no diplomat on the enemy side could possibly make the Noghri betray him. He didn't know that they did in fact have two people with the authority to persuade them.
    Otherwise, he would have sent different commandos and would not have had one of them as a personal guard.

    The same mistake, but to a different degree brought down Endor Palpatine. He knew who Vader's children were, yet he did not understand fully what that meant. Being so completely in the Dark Side, he could not predict that a father-son bond could defeat the Dark Side and allow Vader to turn on his Master. He had no clue. Also, his primary goal at Endor was to turn Luke. If it was to destroy the Rebels he would have ordered an all-out attack rather than the slow, inevitable victory designed to crush Skywalker's spirit. As such, it left the Rebels with an opening that they took to win.

    Palpatine was chess player of the highest order. He was able to manipulate anyone and everyone. But actually making a battle go exactly to plan was not what he was about. Just having a battle was considered a victory in his game, much like Naboo, where he manipulated the Nemoidians into attacking when by all rights they shouldn't have.


    Warning : Cloak of Deception spoilers !



    I found it ironic, how with controlling his military policy and thus encouraging massacres and the like, HIM made the outlying systems turn against him. The very same regions he carefully divided from the Core decades earlier, thus creating a character in the typical outlier systems that would rise up against the Core (or the Empire in this case).

    Note : the following is THEORETICAL, based on fact, but no fact itself.

    Thrawn is considered less of a villian than the others because his motives were more or less good. Think about, he's an alien from the Unknown Regions, part of the Chiss military, that is constantly under attack from aliens who would like to do a Palpatine. So when he captures these outside (Imperial) forces, he attacks them, presuming they're probably enemies. Just in case, he takes the commanders prisoner. Kinman Doriama (sp) convinces him that a ship is coming to attack (i.e the Outbound Flight). Being highly suspicious of alien craft in the first place, Thrawn believes him and attacks the Outbound Flight, killing the Jedi. When the Chiss investigate and discover that the Jedi are actually guardians and protectors, they exile him.

    When he's brought back to the Empire years later by Parck, he's probably still a bit angry about the deception. You notice that Doriana does not have any later appearances, could that be partly because of Thrawn ? Anyway, either way Thrawn does not give total loyalty to the Emperor. HIM may have had trouble reading Thrawn's mind, due to his alien thoughts. Thrawn also went in search of Force-defying weapons. A bit suspicious methinks.

    According to the residents of the Hand of Thrawn, Thrawn's still on his original Chiss mission : protect against outside threats. Not exactly on Palpatine's agenda. When HIM encounters the Ssi-ruuk, rather than fight them, HIM gives them prisoners to assimilate. The Chiss, on the other hand, burn the evil lizards to the ground.

    Thrawn also knows what he is ; a warrior, master of military tactics. He does not mix and match like Palps did at Endor. He is a political disaster and he knows it, that's why he doesn't play in that arena. His appearance at Court was not great for him, and soon he leaves on a 'secret mission' to the Unknown Regions to start unifying and creating forces there for Imperial control. Palpatine was doing the same type of thing in the De
     
  11. BOOSTERERRANT

    BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Thrawn and Daala aren't, in my definition, pitiful villians.

    Yes, they failed at their campaigns, but look at their comrades!!!

    Hethrir: Emprie Reborn with teens! Please.

    That Hutt from Planet of Twilight: A Hutt Sith Lord??? AHH!

    All the executed warlords in Darksabre: there's a reason why Daala executed them. It wasnt because she thought them to be competant and a threat to her.

    Durga and the rest of the hutts: failure in the most disgusting form.

    Bevel Lemmisk: all superweapons destroyed. failure rate 100%.

    Ssiruuvi Imperium: Not Imperial but...AHAHAHA!

    theyre all horrible!

     
  12. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    The Hutt was not a Sith Lord.
     
  13. BOOSTERERRANT

    BOOSTERERRANT Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    thats irrelivant. he was a horrible bad guy
     
  14. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Everyone exept pellaeon and the cloned tierce
     
  15. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The Imperials in the galaxy proper were the same Imperials that HIM used for him.

    I don't think he is an idiot. He was thought of as a good figurehead by others in the Senate when he was elected. He fooled them all.

    However, his loyalists either were loyal for fear, power, or the ideal of the Empire. I seem to recall the EC stating that Palpatine chose officers for ambition.

    Thrawn however, had his officers join him because he had a mission. He wanted to keep the galaxy safe. Even the Chiss were in need of help. As shown in Mist Encounter, he joined the Empire only to help the Chiss, and as time went on, the galaxy from the threat that was coming, be it the Vong or something else.

    Another example of his leadership is HoT. The people under his command were still loyal to him, even ten years after his death.

    The Civil War after his death was caused because they didn't have anyone like him. Pellaeon would most likely be the successor, but others don't see any reason he obey anyone with the same skills as themselves. Isard--when in control of Imperial Center--, Thrawn, and Palpatine all had many loyal personnel. Only after their defeat were their Civil Wars.

    However, Isard losing Imperial Center was a mistake. Even if the Krytos Virus had worked, needing the Rebels to attack later, the Warlords were created. Harrsk, Terradoc, Tavira, and many others became warlords at that time. Captain Yonka also intended to defect to anyone, including the Rebels, which he did. He only took orders from the stable Isard, operating from Coruscant.

    Isard fell prey to the same thing that Palpatine did. They both were undone by people they could not defeat by psycological means. Palpatine could not believe that anyone would Dare to disobey him. A "weak" Jedi would try to trick him, even after all the Palpatine had taught him. Isard had the same probelm with Antilles.

    Thrawn, however, would have kept his cool, and his mind. He would try to clearly rethink the situation.
     
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