CT The Empire strikes back, but the good guys win!

TESB has always been talked about as one of those special movies where the bad guys win, but I'd argue the opposite; In actuality, the good guys come out on top.

Think about it: The Empire are the ones seeking to crush their enemy, while the Rebels' only goal in the movie is to get away. With that in mind, it's easy to see that the Empire fails spectacularly, since most of the Rebels live to fight another day (which eventually leads to the Empire's ultimate defeat).
What's more, Luke's physical defeat against Vader is really a major victory against the dark side. Not only is he denied revenge but also, he willfully renounces the dark side by choosing possible death over siding with his evil father. Even though he is conflicted at the time, this ultimately saves him and, at length, the whole galaxy.

The movie might feel like a downer at first glance, but upon closer inspection, it becomes pretty apparent that the only real problem is that Han is taken to Jabba the Hutt and that the big loser of the movie is Darth Vader.

 

It was a victory for the rebels at the end considering most of the heroes were still together and intact. But for the main heroes it was a loss due to Han Solo being lost. Also a victory for Luke moving Vader one step closer to redemption. Or that was the first step itself with Vader when he faced Luke for the first time.

So in a way when Luke first faced Vader that was kind of the beginning of the end for the Empire. Or the end of the Sith as well.

 

Exactly right! The seeds for Anakin's redemption are planted here, since his revelation to Luke sparks Luke's belief that his father can be brought back from the dark side. He simply doesn't want to believe that Anakin is lost forever. All his life, he's dreamed of knowing his father and here he learns that he's been alive all this time. No way he's giving up on that dream now!
Anakin unwittingly brought about his own salvation by telling his son the truth. He did hope that the revelation would bring Luke closer to him, but not quite the way it ultimately panned out.

 

well the title just says they 'Strike Back'. it's dark in that it leave's off with Han frozen and the audience shocked with Vader's revelation and the rebels with no home and on the run.

 

Glad you see it that way however I don't see the Rebels as 'good guys' and Empire as 'bad ones' and no one 'won'. I don't see this film as amazingly atmospheric like many here, either it's the one I can even barely get through!

 

I remember the first time I saw ESB back in 80, at the end when the Rebel fleet was cruising along all together, I felt like "OK, the Empire struck back. But now, it's our turn!"

 

Oh yeah!

 

I think when people talk about the "darkness" of this movie and the bad guys winning, it's a relative statement, compared to every other movie.

But yes, the rebels escape (and hand out some strikes of their own), and at the end there is hope. That's what the (rather beautiful) final scene shows, hope; a fleet recovering its strength, a man putting his arm around a woman (brother and sister, as we later find out), and together they look out at the galaxy and hope. They've survived, they made it through the Empire's retaliation, now they're on the other side, and they're stronger for it.

Yes, there's darkness, but there's also light, there's hope.

 

I think the end is more uncertainty about whats gonna happen next than either side won.

 

But it also shows that the rebels still remain hopeful at the end, even after the worst circumstances. And when viewed in the total story narrative we see in the next installment that the rebels strike back even harder! We also see Luke jump back even stronger even after the worst emotional and physical pain he endures.

 

I always thought it was just the Empire striking back. Y'know, handing the Rebels their own ass after the first movie was the reverse. They didn't completely demolish them, but they did leave a bloody black eye. The Hoth base destroyed, one of the VIP members MIA and the other sans a right hand and suffering from trauma from learning a dark secret from their past. If you really want to see the bad guys win, watch Revenge of the Sith. Even with the hopeful spot of the babies, that doesn't change the fact that the galaxy has 20-23 years of darkness to look forward to before it's all over.

 

^^^ This. It's not called The Empire Wins Decisively after all.

 

I'm curious. Does that second Rebel transport actually escape or does the Empire destroy it? I'm pretty sure we don't learn the outcome in the movie, but maybe some EU source has the answer.

(Maybe Iron_lord has the answer!)

If that 2nd transport is destroyed, then that would be a pretty big loss on top of those losses we see on the battlefield.

 

Apparently, they lost 17 out of 30 of those transports, as well as other transports not depicted, in the EU (The Essential Guide to Warfare is the source cited):

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Hoth

 

It's not really about how I see it. The movie itself clearly sides with the Rebels, which is why I chose to phrase it that way. I personally agree with you, though, in that things aren't really as clear-cut as the films would have you believe initially and I could easily have written "but the Rebels win".

There's another dimension to consider, though: Pacifism scores a victory of sorts, since the major conflicts in the film are resolved through evasion rather than violence. People are scarred and, shall we say, disappointed at the end, but they all survive and the hope for peace survives with them. That is a victory for the good side of humanity, which means that in a sense, the good guys do win

 

The film siding with the Rebels does NOT make them right. Thanks for explaining your stance but I still don't agree with the labels.

 

You have a great perspective on ESTB, but I wouldn't go so far as to say the Rebels win and the Empire loses. Rather, I think both sides win. It depends on whether you can call "escaping" a win. Some people prefer to just label victories (ex: Yavin, Endor, etc.) as wins, whereas others would include escapes.

Empire:
-- Destroyed much of the Rebels' forces in the Battle of Hoth
-- Incapacitated one of the Rebels' top generals (Han Solo)
-- Dismembered the Jedi's arm, and shattered his perception of the world

Rebels:
-- Escaped the Empire, so the Fleet can fight another day
-- The Millennium Falcon Squadron (sans Han) escapes Vader
-- Luke resisted Vader's call to the Dark Side, and escaped, unknowingly planting the seed for redemption

 

Fighting tyranny and oppression is not right? What is it, then? Wrong?!

 

That depends on how you're fighting - and who you're asking.
I don't believe anyone has said that a movie siding with someone automatically makes that person right, though.

enigmaticjedi: "Empire Strikes The Back"?
I see your point, but I still kinda have to see the Rebels - and the light side - as the victors, since they accomplished their goal. They were decimated, but they did get away.
Of course, the Empire may have counted on that - especially since Vader was mostly interested in catching Luke - so they can, as you say, be considered partially victorious too.
The part with catching Luke, though, was definitely a failure on Vader's part and, to my mind, a success for Luke (times two, since he got away and renounced the dark side).

 

Oh, my bad

There we go: TESB

Glad to see we agree about both sides being partially victorious. I do see what you are saying about how Vader's goal for TESB was to make Luke his apprentice, and he failed. However, I think the Alliance suffered enough losses to make both sides partially triumphant. It's too bad Lucas revised the "Bring me my shuttle" scene. It conveyed the fact that Vader was infuriated about his failure to turn Luke. In the new version, it still seems like he has things under control.

 

On one hand you have a point (re: "bring me my shuttle") but on the other hand, I don't see Vader losing it that easily. Luke is his son, so he knows that he's good - so it won't be that easy. Plus it seemed like he had tolerated Ozzel for awhile, and he gave the Moff in ROTJ lenience as well.

 

Good point. On the other hand though, Vader spent the entirety of TESB trying to track down Luke. Vader lost it in ANH when the Rebel did not disclose Leia's location. In the end, I am probably fine with either version.

 

Imagine being there in 1980 and just having a major WTF! moment after the big reveal and then having to wait three years to finally see what happens. To anybody who was there, were there any major discussions on plot and spoiler alerts and all that hoopla that goes on today?

 

So, the Rebels are not right in stopping a tyrannical Empire from blowing up planets, in order to save countless lives and restore personal freedoms to the galaxy? You do know that where you live is a country that was founded on obtaining personal freedoms? You do know that wars have been fought against oppression and tyranny? But yeah, the Empire is noble because your favorite actor was in it.