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CT The Empire strikes back, but the good guys win!

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Lulu Mars, Aug 9, 2015.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    We see one Imperial character being overtly noble in the movies - that's Needa - and his nobility is only in protecting his own crew from Vader's reprisals by "assuming full responsibility".
     
  2. Jangounchained1990

    Jangounchained1990 Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 31, 2015
    I would still argue that the head of the rebel allience(Leia Princess) is good while the head of the empire(Lord Palpatine) is evil and in that sense the rebels are still more good guys then the empire.
     
  3. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Head of the Alliance? Is there really such a thing?

    The Empire is oppressive, which to me makes it evil, even if many of it's servants have good intentions.
    That doesn't make the Rebel Alliance good, though. If the Rebels are good, then they are good because of what they do, not because of what the Empire does.
     
  4. Jangounchained1990

    Jangounchained1990 Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 31, 2015
    Opression to some is order for others. Depends on your perspective.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes. Mon Mothma is the leader after Bail's death.

    Only for those who have been mislead. Once oppressed people realize how bad things are in their lives, then they're going to want freedom.
     
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  6. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    The truths we cling to depend greatly on our points of view. Oppression can be orderly (as seems to be the case with the Empire), but I'll probably always see it as evil.

    I thought the Rebels would have a group of leaders, BTW. Maybe they have a sort of council, with Mothma as the president/chairperson?
     
  7. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 1, 2014
    Darth Vader learns that he has had a living son for decades he didn't know about and loses him to the rebellion. This is more painful for him than it is for Luke.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    There were many military leaders, but in terms of political ones, it was mainly Bail Organa and Mon Mothma. The old EU indicated that the Senators seen in the deleted scenes from ROTS, such as Fang Zar, were either arrested or killed following Empire Day. Lucas never addressed those characters other than Bail and Mon who had been created for the OT first. Leia had assumed a leadership role prior to the destruction of Alderaan, but it was definitely not as high ranking as Mon Mothma.
     
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  9. Obi-Ewan

    Obi-Ewan Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2000
    The rebels simply escape with their lives. That's not much of a victory.

    As for Vader, he hasn't personally come any closer to the decision that redeems him. If anything, learning about Luke
    has caused him to dig himself in deeper, attempting to make Luke over in his own image.
     
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  10. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Escaping alive is a victory. Especially when that's what you set out to do.
     
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  11. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 20, 2015
    I don't think the Rebels won. If anything, none of them did. Empire had their victory at Hoth but the Rebels never really had an "official" victory. They just escaped the Empire twice.

    To me, if you have to escape, the other side may have won.
     
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  12. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Yes, may have. The Rebels never tried to overpower the Empire on Hoth, though. Their plan was to escape and they succeeded. Thus, they won.
     
  13. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    To be honest, I always interpreted it as Vader saying, "If you anger me, I just Force Choke you to death. If you anger the Emperor, you get to look forward to dying in a slow, excruciatingly painful way."
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    That said, the pre-ROTJ EU (which for obvious reasons had no Mon Mothma) did tend to paint Leia as the political figurehead of the Yavin IV rebels, with Dodonna answering to her, and doing his best to prevent her from going into dangerous situations, until she pointed out that this was a mistake.
     
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  15. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 24, 2015
    I got the opinion that no one really won. There were losses and gains on both sides.
     
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  16. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    This is getting into a semantic argument, but "escaping annihilation" is by no means equivalent to "winning". The Empire sought to root out the Rebellion from their sanctuary, and succeeded in this while killing numerous Rebels. That's a win for the Empire. Later, Vader planned to trap Luke by capturing and torturing his friends, and again succeeded. That's a win for the Empire. Luke was defeated in combat, lost his hand and his weapon, learned a crushing truth about his past, and only escaped death at the last possible moment. That's a win for the Empire.
     
  17. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain.
     
  18. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    The Empire's goal was to destroy the rebellion and turn Luke to the dark side. They failed on both counts. Does one side's failure count as the other side's victory?
     
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  19. TX-20

    TX-20 Force Ghost star 4

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    Jun 21, 2013
    It was the best Maury Povich ending ever.

    Darth Vader: "The results are in... Luke, I am your Father!"
     
  20. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    That's the trick though.

    In TESB the Empire ARE the good guys!
     
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  21. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015

    The Empire's long-term goal is to destroy the Rebellion, no disagreement there. But their immediate goal during the events of ESB is to win the Battle of Hoth, which they do. A single ground battle against a regiment of Rebel forces is not going to dismantle the entire machinery of the Rebellion. The Hoth base under Princess Leia is destroyed and the Rebels are scattered. That's an Empire victory. Han is captured, Leia and Chewie are tortured, 3PO is blasted to pieces, Luke loses his hand and his saber and is soundly defeated in combat. None of those are Rebel victories. By film's end the heroes are on the run, taking solace in each other and hopeful about the future, but decidedly licking their wounds.
     
  22. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Yes, the Empire clearly gained some advantages, made some tactical advances, but they did not reach the ultimate strategic goals they had set themselves.
     
  23. Hogarth Wrightson

    Hogarth Wrightson Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 2, 2015
    In other words, the Empire struck back. :D
     
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  24. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I think that the Empire technically won in TESB because they got the Rebellion off of Hoth, which was strategically important. It was Vader who didn't entirely win. He failed to obtain Luke for his own plans against Sidious. He did, however, manage to get Luke to question himself, but that was a small and questionable victory. Vader was affected by telling Luke that he was his son, and it awakened suspicions in himself about himself and his past. For Vader, it made him question his role in the Empire and more importantly his overall life choices up that point. For Luke, it showed him that being a Jedi is more complicated and challenging that he could have possibly imagined. It also inspired him to become a stronger person in order to be the Jedi he sought to be for the galaxy.

    I don't really agree with the title of this thread. TESB is the most morally ambiguous story in the OT. I don't think anyone wins or loses in the story. Also, although we sympathize with Luke, Han, and Leia in this story, Vader is not totally in the wrong. Although he's violent, obsessed, and, let's be frank, abusive toward Luke in this movie, Vader does want to overthrow Palpatine. He may want to do it for selfish reasons and ambitions, but Vader is when you come down to it trying to do something good. Darth Sidious is evil. He's the Hitler of Star Wars, and plus, he's a really horrifying emperor and totalitarian monster. Vader probably could be a bad dictator himself, but it's difficult to imagine him being as bad a tyrant as Palpatine. Maybe Vader is not as politically skilled as his lord and master, but let's be honest about this. Sidious was good at conquering the galaxy through his machinations before and during the Clone Wars and Order 66, but he wasn't always competent at managing the totalitarian system he set up. Vader, similar to individuals like Tarkin and Thrawn, was more skillful in maintaining order than Palpatine was. I'm not saying that either of them were good people, but politically and realistically speaking, Vader was more adept at controlling a massive military system than Palpatine. Palpatine was more interested in staying in the Imperial palace to study the dark side, since he viewed himself a god and savior by that point. Vader was a bit more practical.

    Anyhow, that's my take. I can see why Luke would be tempted to join Vader. Luke may not have been entirely satisfied with how strict and harsh Yoda could be, and Vader would be an appealing teacher who could offer him even more powers as a Sith. But Luke, despite being intense and petulant at times, was not one to rush to judgment in every single case. Luke understand the desperation of the Rebellion, but he also knew that the Empire, as racist and sexist as its leaders were, was a force for order and stability in the galaxy, while the Rebellion, though hopeful, was less practical and less organized. But Luke is a dreamer and he believes in liberty for himself and the galaxy's citizens, and he wants to go with the right choice: the more difficult path. He doesn't want to become what Vader became. He is shocked and confused by the revelation that Vader is his father, but it fails to dissuade him from what he had determined he should do. In some ways, it actually persuades him to be a Jedi, and a better one.

    That's what I love about this movie. It's morally ambiguous in a lot of ways. Vader isn't totally evil or a monster, even though he is very scary and ruthless in this film. And Luke and the others aren't totally right, either. Yoda himself is kinda dark in this movie if you listen to him and watch his face. Yoda is grieving and he's on a planet tainted by the dark side, and so even though he's trying to do the right thing, he's more jaded and bitter than most recognize at first glance. Just because Yoda is very wise doesn't mean he's completely right. He has is own emotions to do deal with. Yep. Oh, my goodness. What a movie!
     
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