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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT The Empire Strikes Back: Forever the best and worst of Star Wars movies?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Qui-Riv-Brid, Mar 12, 2015.

  1. darth_mccartney

    darth_mccartney Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2008
    How ANYONE can rank ANH above TESB is beyond me. ANH is riiiiight at the bottom of my pile. Far below even my second least favorite movie (AOTC)!
     
  2. Saga Explorer

    Saga Explorer Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2015
    She and others can . :p
     
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  3. darth_mccartney

    darth_mccartney Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 3, 2008
    Fair point [face_laugh]
     
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  4. Sith-I-5

    Sith-I-5 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 14, 2002
    For me, the best.

    The gritty realism of the Hoth Battle, compared to Space Battles, were what clinched it for me.
     
  5. Polydroxol

    Polydroxol Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2014
    I think that the real triumph of TESB is found in its focus on character development, not necessarily its development of the overall Star Wars plot. It is true that TESB does not aid in developing the overall story much from ANH to ROTJ, however I think that it succeeds in in adding compelling depth to each of the main characters which in turn, allows the story to be completed as it was in ROTJ.

    In the case of Luke, we see his trials and progress as a Jedi in training, at the end of ANH we know of Luke as a farmer turned rebel Pilot, whose first use of the force is the climax of the film. In ROTJ, we see the same Luke Skywalker wield a Lightsaber as well as The Force with considerable skill and acumen culminating with his defeating of Darth Vader in a duel on the Death Star. If the events of ROTJ took place directly after those of ANH, this improvement would seem very unrealistic however, after seeing the trials that Luke faces in TESB, encountering the Wampa, training with Yoda, and facing Darth Vader on Cloud City, the prowess and confidence he displays in ROTJ seems more understandable. While these tribulations in TESB may not have done much to advance the overall Rebel vs Empire plot, I think that they helped greatly to develop the character of Luke Sykwalker into the character who brings the saga full-circle in ROTJ.


    Another example of how TESB serves to bring additional depth to a character who appears to be more or less one dimensional in ANH, is Darth Vader. In ANH, he is portrayed as a fairly conventional "bad guy" who's only purpose it seems is to gain power and do evil deeds however, in TESB, we learn that Darth Vader's actions throughout the saga are driven by motives much more personal, unique and opaque. Understanding the motives of man behind the mask is crucial to comprehending why Darth Vader would choose to save Luke from the Emperor in ROTJ. The climax of the throne room scene would not make very much sense without Vader's subtle character development revealed in TESB.


    Lastly, with Han and Leia in ANH, we seem them both as somewhat sarcastic, mysterious characters. But in TESB, we see their bickering reach a plateau and dissipate to reveal both characters softer and more vulnerable, personal side. The culmination of this character development sequence with the famous two sentence exchange on Cloud City as Han is frozen in carbonite is one of the most poignant scenes of the entire saga. It would also be harder to understand why Leia and Luke would put so much on the line to save Han in the beginning of ROTJ if one had not seen Han's sacrifice for the Alliance in TESB where he voluntarily chooses to remain and fight even after earning his reward. In fact, the very reason why Han was in so much trouble with Jabba was because he had for once chosen to sacrifice for Luke, Leia and the Rebels instead of leaving with the reward to pay his debts. I think that Leia' character gets developed to a large degree in all aspects in TESB. We don't know very much about her personally at the end of ANH, but in TESB, we discover that she is an adept military strategist and commander, a skilled marksman with a blaster, as well as an overall caring and empathetic person.

    At the conclusion of TESB, we see each character have his or her own personal recapitulation. Luke, finally finding the courage to face Darth Vader in a duel on Cloud City after we see his Jedi training. Darth Vader, revealing his personal motivation and vision after we see him tirelessly track Luke the entire film. Finally, Han and Leia pronouncing their love for each other ( if "I know'' counts as a pronouncement) after we seem them reluctantly being forced to survive together throughout the film.

    While this focus in TESB does not do much to aid the development and the advancement of the overall Rebel vs Empire plot, I think that it is none the less very important in taking the characters that we are introduced to in ANH, and through exciting action, and powerful drama, transforming them into more compelling and complex characters. I think that it is the depth and dimensional development of these characters in TESB, which allows for the conclusion of the series to unfold as dramatically and emphatically as it did in the throne room of the Death Star in ROTJ. I think that this focus also serves to make TESB, a more enjoyable and engaging movie to watch by itself.

    I think that TESB worked so much better than AoTC as the transitional film of a trilogy because unlike TESB, AoTC focused too heavily on advancing the overall Republic vs Separatist plot while neglecting to develop its characters enough as TESB did.
     
  6. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2015

    I find it hard to believe that the character development in "The Empire Strikes Back" is a good reason to regard it as superior to "Attack of the Clones". That's not enough. And I don't think that "Attack of the Clones" was solely about plot development, either.
     
  7. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In that person's opinion it probably is.
     
  8. rieges

    rieges Jedi Master

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    Growing up, TESB was my least favorite of the OT movies. I remember feeling like it was too slow, there wasn't enough action in the middle of the movie and of course I didn't like the mushy romantic stuff between Han and Leia. It was also the movie I watched the least of the three. My favorite of the OT was actually ROTJ. I was 6 years old when it came out so it's the first of the three that I actually remember seeing in the theater for the first time so I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. Seeing Luke do more "Jedi things" and finally meeting the Emperor and Jabba the Hutt were a big part of it too. I also loved the Ewoks back then.

    Growing up changed everything of course. I started getting back into Star Wars as a freshman in high school and I re-watched the OT a lot. That was when Empire became my favorite of the three and to this day is the one that "feels" most like Star Wars to me. I grew to love the character development, the constant sense of peril for the heroes that it masterfully creates, the darker, more adult-like tone and of course, the reveal scene. It probably won't come as much of a surprise but ROTJ is now one of my least favorite of the three.
     
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  9. Jangounchained1990

    Jangounchained1990 Jedi Knight star 2

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    May 31, 2015

    Well at the very least it gave Luke some character development.
     
  10. DBPirate

    DBPirate Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 20, 2015
    I used to think TESB was boring as a kid because I could never get passed the boring Hoth segments but as I got older, it definitely became my favorite of the original trilogy. I do pretty much like everything on Cloud City but I still kinda-sorta find the Dagobah stuff to be both dull and a little rushed.
     
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  11. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 3, 2000
    Reading some of the "love letters" to ESB in this thread (which I eagerly devoured and completely agreed with) has put me in the mood to watch ESB. Like, right now.

    It's my favorite, and I love it for all the reasons already stated in this thread.

    Plus, Han was really cute in it. (Which is not it's greatest quality by any stretch, but I don't think it was mentioned, so I figured I'd just throw it out there….)
     
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  12. Twain

    Twain Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2014
    The Empire Strikes Back is the heart of the entire franchise. Everything flows from ESB.


    ESB is also easily one of the greatest sequels ever made. Only Godfather Part II can truly stand against, or best, The Empire Strikes Back as a sequel to a classic original. As a space-fantasy film, it's flawless.
     
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  13. Jay290

    Jay290 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2015

    I agree with almost everything you said except this. I think AOTC really tried to flesh out the characters similar to ESB. The biggest difference is the actors and actresses bring the films to life and the cast of ESB all hit a home run while the cast of AOTC almost all strikes out except McGregor and Lee. The dialog is harder to work with in AOTC, but the main thing I think is the cast in the CT really brings it all to life. Thats why you can get invested every time Luke fights Vader and Vader cuts the hand off and does the reveal. I think when it comes to the prequels we get so wrapped up in the idea of the plot is because the plot is far more exciting that watching the cast try to make it happen.
     
  14. Twain

    Twain Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2014
    But all of that ultimately also entails the STORY.

    Just as a quick example:


    In ESB, our hero was trying to kill an evil Black Knight who he believed had murdered his father and his mentor friend. And as audience, we wanted him to get revenge toward that Black Knight also because we also believed what he believed. As it turned out, that the Black Knight easily bested him and then revealed he was actually his father...and then our hero barely escaped with his life.

    In AOTC, our hero was trying to kill some stranger he'd never met. And we as audience didn't know that stranger either. So....


    The acting of course was much better in the OT but the actors were also given a lot more quality material to work with as characters. And in ESB, there were a variety of creative voices challenging each other to produce the best film possible. Not so in AOTC.


    The great sin of the prequels was squandered opportunity. It wasn't the fault of the actors, although they weren't that good at times. ESB didn't have that problem. Not only did it rise to the challenge of following a cultural phenomena like Star Wars, but it exceeded its predecessor in almost every way. The problem with AOTC or the PT in general though, wasn't the fault of bad casting decisions. Actually, the casting mistakes in the PT were a direct result creative choice mistakes of the characters themselves. If Anakin would have been conceptualized differently, the actor would have been chosen differently.
     
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  15. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 4, 2014
    I think people are being unfairly reductive in regards to the plot of AOTC and how it compares to ESB.

    Reducing AOTC to simply being about Anakin hunting down a villainous stranger is a mischaracterization. By that point in the film Dooku is no longer a stranger and he's responsible for the outbreak of war and the deaths of 100s of Jedi. There's also much more going on in AOTC than in ESB. ESB is about Darth Vader's pursuit of Luke Skywalker and Luke's awakening and honing of his Jedi powers. That's somewhat reductive, but that's the crux of the matter. I think it's more disingenuous to characterize AOTC as being about Anakin "hunting down a stranger", because that's only something that comes about in the twilight of the film. Clones is mainly about the mystery surrounding the Separatists movement and the assassination attempts on Padme's life while simultaneously being about Anakin coming to terms with his newly formed romantic feelings for Padme and being haunted by dreams of his mother being in pain and his frustrations with the Jedi getting in the way of his personal ambitions. It's pretty meaty.

    I'd like to echo the fact that there is indeed a far greater attempt at fleshing out its characters in comparison to its predecessor. With Obiwan you get a greater sense of who he is; his sense of humor; his frustrations with Anakin; his love for Anakin and wanting to protect him; his admiration of Anakin's skills - even when he chastises him there's an undercurrent of love and affection(referring specifically to the "lightsaber being Anakin's life" speech, and his "you made a promise to the Jedi Order" speech). With Anakin you see his many faces - his romantic side, his comedic side, his dark side, and his noble almost stoic side. Padme does get short changed, which is a pity, but she does progress in the sense that she goes from nearly robotic to opening up about her personal life and being facetious with Anakin to taking charge of not only Obiwan's rescue, but her own romantic destiny as well "I truly deeply love you...". Even Yoda is enriched by AOTC and not simply because we finally see him in combat, but his saving his friends from death, at the expense of potentially ending the newly erupted War really gives more gravity to his warnings to Luke about saving his friends in ESB and provides an understandable basis for his sneering at being defined as a "great warrior". These are fascinating portrayals to me, and while AOTC is rich in terms of plot and story, I do not believe it's at the detriment of the characters. I really feel it achieves a harmonious balance.
     
  16. Twain

    Twain Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2014
    I didn't reduce AOTC as "being about" Anakin hunting down a stranger. I implied that was the dramatic climax of the film, which it was. And then I contrasted that against ESB's dramatic climax, which was much more personal because of the character-driven focus and structure of that film, which you rightly acknowledge.

    And if you love AOTC, that's great. Different strokes.
     
  17. Mindless Monster

    Mindless Monster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 4, 2014

    I mostly take exception to you classifying Dooku as a "stranger" to the audience. We know at that point who Dooku is and what he's done. We know that if he escapes "more systems will rally to his cause" there are great stakes in capturing Dooku, and we the audience are made fully aware of this. Anakin is also emotionally invested in defeating Dooku, because Dooku has orchestrated the deaths of many of his Jedi friends to this point.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Dooku isn't a stranger at this point, though. He's sent assassins against Padme, openly plotted against the Republic, imprisoned Obi-Wan while cruelly playing on his feelings for his dead master, presided over all three of the main characters' attempted executions, and commanded an army of battle droids in the slaughter of dozens and dozens of Jedi who came to their rescue. Minutes before the duel, starfighters under his direct command knocked Padme out of a speeding gunship, forcing Anakin to abandon her in the middle of a hostile desert. He's done a lot of bad stuff, stuff that personally affects the main characters.

    Was Count Dooku the next Darth Vader in terms of sheer iconic villainy? Well, no, but I think that's kind of an unrealistic thing to expect, and I doubt Lucas was even trying to achieve that. Dooku was just a good, solid villain who was ultimately subordinate to the real villain lurking in the shadows. This is Episode II of a continually downward-arcing trilogy. Things haven't completely fallen apart yet. It's not perfectly analogous to Episode V, which was the low point of its trilogy and thus demanded a more emotionally intense climax.
     
  19. Twain

    Twain Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 12, 2014

    But he doesn't even appear on-screen until about halfway through the movie.


    Relative to Vader's presence at the end of ESB --who had been featured throughout two entire films by that point ---the audience barely knows Dooku at the end of AOTC. We see him talk to Obi-Wan while he's held captive, preside over a round table discussion of aliens, and then watch an gladiatorial scene from a balcony. And he rides a speeder bike to a hangar. As far as screen-time goes, that's not much compared to Vader's appearance by the time we get to the duel on Bespin in ESB.

    And there's really no comparing the Luke-Vader relationship (even pre-paternal reveal) with the Anakin-Dooku relationship. Both Luke and Vader are obsessed with each other by the time they reach Cloud City. Anakin and Dooku haven't ever even met or discussed the other.

    That's really all I was saying. I'm not saying Dooku is a terrible villain although I think he's kind of bland despite Lee's great talent. The prequels just weren't written around non-Palpatine villains the same way that the OT is, as you say in your second paragraph, which is pretty spot on.
     
  20. L110

    L110 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 26, 2014
    And yet he´s still not a stranger and the fight between him and Obi-Wan&Anakin still has a personal stakes in it. Anakin is evidetnly "obsessed" with Dooku for the reasons The_Phantom_Calamari explained.
    And Luke and Vader don´t meet each other until the final act of Empire. So what?

    "And there's really no comparing the Luke-Vader relationship (even pre-paternal reveal) with the Anakin-Dooku relationship."
    There are similarities and there are differences. Which is the reason why to Luke-Vader relationship above the Anakin-Dooku relationship is beside the point and isn´t nothing more than just another case of biased double standards.
     
  21. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    Listen I love TESB but as the movies go it is that much more dependent on the other movies to make it stronger. Of course all the movies make the others stronger as it's part of one story. The difference is the separation that some people want to make like it is can stand wholly on it's own somehow.

    It is a great movie but to me their is no comparison in terms of character development. Leia and Han are done very well. Han really isn't all that much in either ANH or ROTJ but this is the one time he actually gets some real story combined with the character. Same for Leia.

    It is the best they were in the trilogy. The "problem" of course is that it wasn't their story and so consequently there was really no where to go in ROTJ other than to restate it.

    That is not TESB's fault or ROTJ's either. Ultimately Leia and Han were the action and romance side story to counter balance the Luke and Yoda story.

    The character development of Anakin and Padme was not neglected in the least. That was THE most important thing in AOTC but obviously the Republic vs Separatist story via the assassination and mystery was not neglected and it all converged at the end because he was a Jedi and she was a Senator. Even the most basic analysis by anyone should lead them to the duality that Anakin and Padme have in terms of personal and professional lives.

    Their story was key to moving forward to ROTS where it became THE personal issue and of course was tied in with Obi-Wan and Palpatine as Anakin's two mentors.

    Obi-Wan himself was also extremely well served in showing the difference between the apprentice of the previous movie to the Jedi Knight of the middle installment. His relationship with Anakin and his views on the Jedi Order.

    In terms of transition I see little comparison. In both story and character terms AOTC is a beautiful set up for the third movie moving the entire saga along to it's conclusion.

    Now of course it had a distinct advantage because we already knew the broadest of broad strokes of what was going to happen already. We can't entirely be sure of what Lucas knew of the last of that previous trilogy but from The Making of ROTJ he did have a similar idea though a bit rougher than ROTS was but we don't know exactly what he had in mind when he started to seriously form ROTS after AOTC was done.

    The key issue of course is that basically in ROTS we knew where Anakin was going while for ROTJ Vader could have gone several roughly similar ways.

    It is interesting that in both cases Lucas had the basic plan but did a lot of playing with the intricate details through the process. In both cases so much is going on in Anakin/Vader's head that it doesn't easily translate to the screen and for fans detailed study of scenes, dialogue, actions, gestures and music are needed to piece the more intricate details together.
     
  22. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 10, 2015
    I loved TESB as a kid, and I love it even more as an adult. I do think it works as a transition from ANH to ROTJ insofar as it sets up the problem between Luke and Vader and that is resolved in ROTJ. Vader was more of an advisor and henchmen in ANH, and we get to know him better in TESB. There are other transitional aspects to the film, such as Han being frozen, sold to Boba Fett, and taken to Jabba, which is resolved in ROTJ.

    I said a few months ago that I regard TESB as the best Star Wars film and AOTC as the worst (with ROTJ, ANH, ROTS, and TPM in between and in that order). I stand by my statement.
     
  23. True Sith

    True Sith Jedi Master star 4

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    May 10, 2015
    Like some others here, some parts of ESB were dull to me as a kid, but as I got older I appreciated the slower scenes with Yoda and such more and more, as well as the overall tension ESB achieves. It has really risen up the list for me, to where it's now tied for my favourite, while AotC has gone down quite a bit (still like it though). ROTJ and ESB are the two best in the saga IMO.
     
  24. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 5, 2013
    I think you have fantastic points here. I liked AOTC but I found the handling of Dooku to be pretty strange. While he gets mentioned early in the movie, it's well over halfway through before we meet him. That always put me off a little. It almost seemed to me as though it would have made more sense to keep Maul alive at the end of E1 and give him Dooku's role in E2. Obviously certain parts would have had to have been rewritten, but at least now we would have some emotional connection from the protagonists trying to avenge Qui-Gon, not fighting some random stranger.
     
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  25. GGrievous

    GGrievous Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Nov 6, 2005
    Contrary to popular belief- in order to be a Star Wars fan, you don't have to rank Empire as your favorite movie. It could be a prequel movie. It's all taste/opinions. ;)
     
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