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Saga The Empire vs The First Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Articulate, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    This thread is for discussing the differences between the two. To me, there are at least two significant differences

    1. Open Evil
    While the Empire was basically the Republic Gone Bad, the First Order seems it was openly evil from it's inception. Palpatine reorganized the Republic into the Empire, corrupting it from the inside, while Snoke gathered the remnants of the Empire and empowered them (with the exception of Ben Solo, who he seduced), while presumably never presenting himself with a different face.

    2. Viciousness
    While the Empire took prisoners, it seems that the First Order doesn't. I mean, Kylo captured Rey because he wanted something from her, but he seems to keep ordering the deaths of anyone from whom he doesn't need anything. Other than their deaths.

    In addition, now that Emo Kylo has taken over, I think the FO is going to have a much shorter life, like a fire that burns it's hottest before extinguishing.

    Any other apparent differences?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  2. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    Hux and Kylo are the true heroes of TLJ. Nobody brought more damage to the FO cause than those two.

    The Empire felt like the unbeatable foe. The First Order feels like the Keystone Kops. The best way to defeat them is to just get out of their way.
     
  3. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Hand of the Mod Squad and Enforcer of the Realm star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Minus a "small" defect in Death Star One, and "elite" troops who got their butts handed to them by Ewoks. :p
     
  4. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 2, 2015
    The First Order is the hardcore Imperials who lost their place in the galaxy and have had 30 years to fester over their loss. They are naturally less inclined to put up a veil of not being evil. Both justify their policies by imposing order in a chaotic galaxy. The First Order is less apologetic with their means. One example is how the Empire never imposed computer implants on its workers but the First Order implants any of its subjects who show signs of disloyalty or incompetence (see the Rebels and the Poe Dameron comic).
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  5. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Well I certainly prefer Imperial Officer Uniforms... At least they have some structure on why uniforms are different colors and honestly look better imao. And I honestly prefer the rank of the officer being on a plaque on their breast instead of their lower arms.
    Also, as far as I can see the First Order lacks an ISB or Military Intelligence like branches.
     
  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    The First Order is a lot younger in its personnel. I find that interesting to say the least.
     
  7. Avnar

    Avnar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 20, 2007
    Did you see the guy in TLJ in the white uniform? (Just before Finn and Rose get captured) - The visual Dictionary says he is First Order Security Bureau! "Colonel Garmuth" :cool:
     
  8. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    FOSB? would be fun to see if it's anything like it's bigger predecessor
    and yet to have bought the book
     
  9. Avnar

    Avnar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 20, 2007
    I'm obsessed with those guys as well haha :cool: You see him standing on the platform when BB-Hate (or whatever that droid is called) is scanning BB-8, Finn, Rose and DJ. He is also present to make the arrest with Captain Phasma!

    I recently spent hours (because I am an idiot) going through RO and ANH to see how many dues like Krennic and Yularen I could count [face_hypnotized]
     
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  10. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    How many you see? my count is at least 3
     
  11. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    What do you mean by dudes like them?
     
  12. Avnar

    Avnar Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 20, 2007
    Just how many guys were wearing the same/similar uniforms! @Snafu55 I counted at least 5 - 6 from memory :cool:
     
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  13. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

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    Oct 19, 2015
    Empire is by far still my favorite because we've seen by far the behind the scenes workings of their empire with much of its logistics, territory, and bureaucracy.

    Granted, Their hasn't been much time to flesh out the First Order by Disney, But we have no idea what their territory, sectors, occupied worlds, average First Order Citizen/government or what the rest of their military is like/its size. There's so many looming questions with the FO, that I'm not sure will be answered to our liking.
     
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  14. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Episode IX Treatment Contest Winner star 4 VIP - Game Winner

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    Feb 3, 2002
    I think the FO is much smaller though more technologically advanced, but that's a given if you can develop tech in secret for 30 years without pesky rebels interrupting your work. They are a bit like the Nazis sweeping across Europe. And just like the Nazis, I think they will find it very hard to fight on multiple fronts. Their days are numbered. The Empire already had the galaxy in its grasp, it never had to fight for it. The problem was, it squeezed too hard....
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I think that’s part of the point. The First Order is comprised of people who are too young to remember the atrocities and oppressiveness of the Empire, are unhappy and believe, like Anakin did in AOTC, that “making people agree” was both possible and ideal.
     
  16. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    What I'm currently most curious about is the origins of the First Order and how they compare to the Empire.
    We know that the First Order "rose from the ashes of the Empire", but how? Who took the initiative and what motivated them? Greed plays into it, obviously, but I'm interested in specifics. The Sith were partly motivated by revenge against the Jedi, which gave their plot a bit of a personal touch. Did Snoke's agenda tie into some specific matter or was it just a general "seize an opportunity for unlimited power" type of thing?
    Is that he how he entered the picture; by encountering Imperial remnants on the run and gathering them under the banner of the First Order?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Ostensibly. The formation of the Empire was legal and it kept a society that was being torn apart by war from splintering. The Emperor and the Imperial military hierarchy were not conquerors but saviours.

    The movies do not really provide a picture of a general popular uprising against the dimunution of liberty within the Galaxy. Except for Leia's warning about systems slipping through Vader's tightening grip and Luke's hatred for the Empire (who are practically non existent on Tatooine, which was never within the Republic in the first place).

    It stands to reason that a large portion of this society would be contented with the Imperial situation. Not least, the members of militarist faction. Those that wished to maintain the Republic/Empire continuity don't need any more motivation to want to restore their legitimate claim to rule the galaxy. Their grip on that rule was loosened by the Alliance succesfully decapitating that regime. So again, it follows that a similar figure to Sidious/Palpatine would be required to focus the unrepentant Imperialists and their descendants.

    The other side to that coin is the New Republic which has acheived the Aliance aim of restoring the Senate and democracy. They have no motivation to pursue the inclusion of all former Republic/Empire systems in their democracy. That's what plunged the old Republic into turmoil and paved the way for tyranny in the first place. Their contentment and general indifference to the FO systems going their own way has given the former imperials the breathing space to consolidate and adopt a supreme leader to replace Palpatine.
     
  18. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Both Bloodline and the Aftermath books give some information about the early formation of the First Order, indicating that there were some people in government who thought that the Empire did everything well and that totalitarianism was good, and some who thought the Empire had the right idea about “order and security” but went about it all wrong. The First Order came about from the first group of people.
     
  19. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 23, 2003
    Compare also the methods of torture - Leia is mostly physically unharmed by the methods the Empire uses (same too for Han) whereas Poe looks like he's been overtly beaten and wears the tortue on his face.

    There's alot to be said about the more brutalistic nature of the FO being reflected in the designs of all their stuff. The Resurgence class Star Destroyers are cruder, flatter and more compact, the landers are simple and boxy armoured carriers, the M6 walkers are grim and the animalistic motif of the AT-AT has been pushed further. There's very little elegance.
     
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  20. CaraJinn

    CaraJinn Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 8, 2018
    Good question. If I'd been quicker I would have asked that myself. Through the PT we could see the Empire being formed step by step, but First Order appears to have popped up from nowhere. Even after reading @anakinfansince1983 's explanation I'm still confused. If they were a fraction of the former senate, how could they be as mighty as they appear to be in the first scenes of TFA? And where did Snoke come from? And now I'm thinking more in the political sense and not his potential jedi/sith/whatever background. Somehow he must have risen to be Supreme Leader. And how did Kylo Ren end up in that mess? OK, the latter could possibly be explained that he became attractive to the First Order after turning to the dark (or at least dark grey) side and was headhunted for that reason.
     
  21. Palp_Faction

    Palp_Faction Episode IX Treatment Contest Winner star 4 VIP - Game Winner

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    Feb 3, 2002
    Personally I'd have loved to have had Ep 7 cast light on all of this. This is where TV series have the advantage over film and, personally, I would prefer SW to go down that route in the future once the Skywalker saga is completed.

    The answers to where the FO came from are out there, just not on the silver screen. You need to find it in other material which is a shame.

    As for what happened to Kylo, we don't really have much to go with. In my head canon, Ben felt the pressure of being in the spotlight as the child of Leia and nephew of Luke and was reluctant to be a Jedi. He was raised in a galaxy that had been torn apart by war. Add to that Snoke perhaps pretending to be the spirit of his late grandfather filling his head with all sorts of ideas that he could finally bring order to the galaxy, then one could see how he could get pretty messed up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Kylo gives off a “entitled rich kid who had everything and still didn’t think it was enough” vibe, along with being a prototype of those kids who get radicalized online because they think they are entitled to some status they had in the “old days” (in Kylo’s case, the Empire) before the world changed for the better.
     
  23. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Don't forget, they've had three decades to grow.
     
  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The systems in the Alliance were a fraction of the former republic senate yet they blew up the death star twice and overthrew Palpatine, forcing the militarists in the Empire to reach terms with the rebels.
     
  25. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    The defect was now proven to be an inside job, but the Ewoks' victory, I'll grant you that one. :p