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Saga The Empire vs The First Order

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Articulate, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. CaraJinn

    CaraJinn Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    @Lulu Mars: Good point. Everyone can grow in 30 years. However, to show off the power they did in the first scenes of TFA when Poe first encounter them, they seem to be some "official" force, not only a group rebelling towards the present Senate. So something must have happened between Palpatines death and their appearance in TFA. They must have had good growth conditions.
     
  2. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    As I've come to understand it, their military might was secretly built in some officially uncharted region of the galaxy, so the Republic had no way of knowing how powerful they were.

    Where did they get their resources, though? Was Snoke a multigazillionaire?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    [face_thinking]But Poe doesn't encounter the FO in the New Republic. He encounters them Jakku, outside New Republic (and the Empire/Old Republic, for that matter).

    They are the official force in the FO controlled territory (and in disputed and unkown regions too, I gather) - not in the New Republic. So why wouldn't the FO appear "official" in their own territory?

    By the end of TFA the FO have dealt such a pre-emptive blow to the New Republic's seat of government and standing military (such as it was) that nobody stands in the way of the FO spreading from their territory and conquering the rest of the galaxy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  4. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    The Galactic Empire:

    [​IMG]

    The First Order:

    [​IMG]

    :D
     
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  5. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2015
    It seems The First Order was already very powerful during TFA, because they didn't just manage to take control of the galaxy in a matter of hours
     
  6. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Agreed. The Empire is benevolent. It is the legitimate government in the galaxy since the end of the Clone Wars and the "Jedi Rebellion."

    It has procedures, rules, a system. Its Starships are the official peacekeeping armada of the galaxy. Imperial officers replacing the Jedi as Generals (whether we think that is right or wrong). You almost yearn for Jedi oversight in this far more active governance than the Old Republic and corrupt Senate.

    The Empire take prisoners, have clear objectives and police the galaxy. There is order and the galaxy is stable. There are good people within it. It is a meritocracy.

    The First Order is just pure evil. I don't consider them the Empire in any way. Not to mention they are amateurish. I doubt they would be considered worthy of an Imperial uniform. They seem to be all for anarchy. They kill just because. There don't appear to be any good people in it. Save for one defector who apparently just randomly did it one day.

    Mind you we don't see much of the galaxy or backstory to know what the governance structure is. But the First Order is clearly evil with no grey areas.
     
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  7. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    I see it the same. I always figured the Empire was an actual established governmental presence. Orderly, etc.

    The First Order strikes me as strictly a formidable military force, and basically nothing more. The people in charge are seemingly made of people like General Hux; young offspring of pissed-off and resentful former Imperial officers who hate the Rebellion for defeating them, before they retreated into hiding. Then they presumably indoctrinated their youth into this hatred, sending them out to just....destroy everything. At least that's seemingly all we've been shown so far. I know during Bloodline, they refer to a divided senate, with large numbers of systems supporting the Imperial mentality, only less brutal and inhumane. However, all I seem to interpret from the First Order is being like a brainchild of Snoke basically. But now we can't learn anything more about Snoke so we'll never know I guess, unless some book eventually comes out about him...(do I sound bitter enough about his offing? :p )
     
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  8. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Indeed! I mean before we saw the OT, it is established that the Empire is the officialdom. In a way it was a meritocracy and brings order. Indeed it is interesting that Vader's Empire may have well been a far cry from Palpatine's when he offers and hopes Luke will join him to rule as Father and Son (much like the offer made to Padme in ROTS). With the benefit of the PT too, we see the brilliant plan of Palpatine and the transformation of the galactic government into an Empire - it is the LEGITIMATE government. And with RO and the PT/OT, we actually see in a way the Empire does bring a sense of order and peace to an at time chaotic galaxy, without the ineffectual corrupt apathy of the Republic that it originally was.

    The First Order doesn't strike me even as the evolution of an Imperial faction. If you take away the Stormtroopers, it seems extremely evil. Pure evil. A military force. I would say at best it must represent a small faction of the old Empire, not the entire Remnant. There would be Imperial officers who would label the First Order nothing more than a bunch of uniformed thugs, no better than Rebel or bounty hunter scum.

    Yes, I mean I'm only going by film canon, although I heard about Bloodline. It would have sure been nice to see any backstory on the screen much like Lucas used to always give us in both the PT and OT. That is a major flaw in the ST - the lack of backstory and also present day exposition to explain the galaxy. I also agree, by the looks of it, I think the galaxy needs a strong government, not a corrupt Senate who do nothing. Look how many worlds just suffer at the hands of crime, poverty and corruption. The inability to trade and live in peace thanks to gangsters and Senators who don't care.

    Yes I completely agree. We need to see backstory. I find it unthinkable that they thought it was okay to do this without it! I am sure Lucas had a plan and I hope that this gets resolved on the movie screen in the saga itself. Hoping at the very least that this villain is Darth Plageuis to make sense of the ST and tie the entire 9 episodes together. That at least would not belittle Palpatine, the Empire, Rebellion, Jedi etc. It would be random otherwise. And I hope we feel more galactic at some point. If the First Order, which seems smaller than the Empire, the CIS, etc is able to just take over, that seems a little too easy.

    Long live the Empire! I want to see an Empire with Jedi oversight. Almost like the Jedi junta we may have had in ROTS.

    Your signature is hilarious by the way!

    There is only one saga. The Skywalker saga!
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  9. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    @DarthTalonx, I agree about the backstory factor. Now, I understand that the OT didn't have all that much in terms of backstory-but they DID at least mention (albeit in a few sentences, which was all that was necessary) things about the state of the government in ANH. It was brief but was enough to give us some glimpse of where things are at in terms of government. With TFA and TLJ we did not get this. The way they portrayed the FO was almost like the writers were thinking "okay, we need some bad guys. How about we throw in this army with some cool dreadnaughts and stuff, and just use all the TIEs and Stormtroopers again-cos these Resistance guys need someone to fight!" As if there was no more thought given to it than that. I mean we can all read some blurb in some book or other to find out where things are at in the galaxy in terms of government, but still it would've been nice to have SOME sort of onscreen explanation of where this massive military force came from, and who supports it. And I'm not asking too much here-just like in ANH, a few sentences in TFA could've covered it. This is part of why I didn't enjoy TLJ. It just...assumed too much. It took for granted that we would all just blindly love it just cos "ZOMG, MORE STAR WARSZXXX!!!!" There is no denying the ST has not given us the kind of backstory both the OT and the PT have.

    I just simply feel like more consideration and effort was put into forming the Empire as a legitimate antagonistic force, rather than just some entity that had some cool looking ships for the main characters to fight. I understood their motivations, and philosophies. To me the FO just seems like a carbon copy of the Empire, like a kid in his bedroom with a bunch of SW toys, making up his own "good guys vs. bad guys" story, with all his ships and action figures set up all across the floor...

    LOL thanks (re: my sig) ;)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  10. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2015
    I agree, I don't think the Empire at it's height would of despised the First Order. The empire seemed to be founded on honor and it seemed many of it's officers were honorable Republic officers. I find no one in the FO is worth being in the imperial military (besides the former imperials Cannady and Peavey, who are both the only ones in the FO who have an sense of military order). The FO are just brutes much like neo-organizations irl.I feel like too unlike the empire because of the lack of backstory, we have absolutely no reason to like any of them or sympathize with any of them like we could in the imperial era.
     
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  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014

    Absolutely right! I mean the OT had the exposition required through dialogue (Obi Wan and Luke, and also the Imperial conference on the Death Star, as well as numerous references in conversation between Han and Luke, Han and Leia, etc). We are made aware of the current geopolitical (or spacio-political) state of affairs. That there is an Empire etc. And of this mythical era before, of the Jedi etc. This gets expanded upon. We are clear who the characters on screen are. In TFA we have zero explanation of the state of affairs. Unlike with Alderaan, we have no connection to the planet(s) that is destroyed. With RO, we ARE given a connection to Jedha via actually going there and via characters, a reason for the Empire to be there etc, and it is explained also through additional dialogue afterwards that this place was the last symbol of the Jedi.


    With TFA we also have to realise that it is meant to continue from the previous instalments. This we don't seem to get. Such that we really don't know who the First Order are. It was my understanding that they are not the Empire. But who are they? Who is their leader? None of this crucial backstory is explained by way of flashback, dialogue or hints. Which makes it difficult to understand. I would add that the PT also further highlighted and clarified who different players were. It all flows. The best example of the ST method would be if ESB had just had random villains and participants, and no explanation is given for who they are, or where they came from. Obviously Lucas didn't do that. We had the galaxy clearly following on from the events of ANH.


    I was hoping to see an ST era (I believe Lucas hinted at Imperial factions and the reestabishment of the Jedi and the Republic over the ST, possibly with the aid of a benevolent Imperial faction) that would be a reimagined PT galaxy with a Jedi Order and new vehicles etc. Not a rehash and mockery of the old.


    To think that we had Kanji Club versus exposition on the First Order is somewhat sad. All of this backstory should be explained on screen.


    I concur I don't think that the First Order is the Empire. They are just pure evil. And unlike the Empire for the most part, extremely unlikeable. Imperial officers would baulk at such a vile group. Where is the Empire? I think the Empire, the Alliance, the Jedi, the Emperor, no one wanted this galaxy.



    I concur! The Empire was the Republic reorganised. It had a sense of civility to it. The legitimate government. It simply lacked the ethos of the Jedi. The First Order is pure evil. I find it unthinkable that this is the only evolution of the Imperial way. I was under the impression that we would see a benevolent Imperial faction remaining. Absolutely agree on the fact that we are not shown the Imperial meritocracy that we see across the OT era.


    The Star Destroyer was symbol of order and peace throughout the galaxy. A more civilised weapon, for a more civilised age. Before the dark times. Before the First Order and the New Republic.
     
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  12. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    @DarthTalonx, totes. To all that.

    Put in a nutshell, to me it's just hard to care about the First Order really. We know nothing about them, and they are just a bunch of ships for the Resistance to fight-and we're given nothing more than that. It's extremely difficult to feel any sense of urgency or danger if that's all we get for an antagonist. With the Empire, there was always that everpresent looming threat-there were times where I was genuinely worried for our heroes.

    I mean my first reaction to seeing the dreadnought at the start of TLJ was something like "Oh look, they thought up a BIGGER ship now, for the Resistance to destroy." :rolleyes: I felt no concern, no urgency, no tension or anything. That dreadnought was in and of itself representative of their entire concept for the First Order: Just some ships and troops for the good guys to fight. They can't just keep thinking up bigger ships/weapons to fight and expect us all to care. That's extremely shallow storytelling IMO.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  13. Prime Jedi

    Prime Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Agree, and imo the snail-paced chase in TLJ didn't help matters either. I also feel like the views of the First Order in TFA and TLJ were very different. In TFA, they seemed to be a small part of the remnants of the Empire that had spent 99% of their resources on Starkiller Base. In TLJ, it just seems to be the Empire, but bigger.
     
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  14. DARTH_BELO

    DARTH_BELO Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Interesting, cos to me in TLJ it seemed as if the FO was actually smaller than the Empire-more of just being a military force, not an everpresent governmental body across the galaxy-like the Empire.
     
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  15. Prime Jedi

    Prime Jedi Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2018

    I definitely see why it seems that way, but I feel like the First Order seems bigger because of Battlefront 2, for example, pretty much saying "OMG guys theirr like worse than teh EMPIRE." (Typos were on purpose:p)
     
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  16. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes you don't really get the sense of scale, magnificence and splendour of the Imperial Star Destroyers. You felt a sense that the heroes felt genuine dread when they were coming up against an Imperial Class Star Destroyer. Let alone the Super Star Destroyer! But now, it's like one fighter can take down most of their defences which is a little confusing. I loved the fleet action we saw in ESB and ROTJ (and also in ROTS). I am not sure what to make of ships' abilities and designs with the FO.

    I'm not really sure what to make of who or what the First Order is, or their structure or designs versus the Empire, Republic, Jedi etc. The trouble is there isn't much backstory shown on the screen to make head or tail of it. I personally like the Imperial designs of Star Destroyers and felt a greater sense of power projection, dread (to their enemy) and ability (i.e. it took more than one fighter to take their defences down).

    Size matters not as a Jedi Master used to say. Other than these ships appearing bigger visually on screen, their abilities are somewhat questionable at the moment, or are not shown. I also was under the impression the Empire has a massive fleet. As for the FO, at this point I am extremely confused as to who they are and their resources (in isolation and also versus anyone else). Maybe there is an Imperial remnant out there with an organised civilised fleet around Coruscant, waiting for a Jedi Master to come and lead them.
     
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  17. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    The Empire are the Space Nazis and the First Order are the Neo-Nazi / Alt Right movement. Abrams and Kasadan probably weren't drawing on that at all when they came up with it but that's really how the First Order comes across. Very brutal, more of a military organization set on conquering the galaxy, not very much into the whole prisoner thing. The Empire was the Republic, they just changed the stationary. Even the First Order, while they do idolize the Empire, they strip it down to it's essentials for something more kill crazy and jettison the Imperial pretense at civility. Any old Imperials like Captain Canady or Terrex have a chip on their shoulder from the Imperial defeat and don't seem entirely enamored of the young punk First Order brass.

    So I think the First Order are an interesting evolution of the Empire and not a strict copy because they are more a bunch of militant whackadooles worshiping a Supreme Leader while Palpatine was presented as a benevolent ruler and you only got to the grime when the Imperials got nasty or took an interest in you. The First Order nasty is right there on the surface.
     
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  18. Snafu55

    Snafu55 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Who do you think would win in a fight the FO or Empire?
     
  19. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    I think the Empire right? Surely!

    Interesting question I saw recently, would the Empire/Death Star be able to take out the mothership in Independence Day Resurgence?