The Empire vs. The Old Republic

So let me get something clear, we are having a debate over the fictious governments of the story. Now we are debating the validity of the governments. Whether or not Lucas researched his governments correctly? I don't think that was the original intention of this thread. It seems that Depa Billaba has ignored all of the previous arguments and now has changed this whole thread.

Look it is fiction. Whether or not the governments would have survived is pointless. It is all fake. Lightsabers don't work in real life, there is no such things as The Force, we don't have hyperdrive....should I go on. Things in SW don't exist in real life, because SW is fake!

The original post in this thread asks us to debate the Empire vs the Old Republic. I think we should all return to that debate instead of checking GL's historical research, after all SW is fake.

So lets debate the fact is that in SW (The story we are debating) the Republic lasts for 1000 years. Whether or not a Republic would last so long on Earth has nothing to do with the debate, only because almost nothing in SW would work on Earth.


So Depa lets return to your original debate of Empire vs Republic.

-Seldon

 

I say they are about the same if I had to pick one that is.
The Republic did fall at The Battle of Endor (ROTJ) and in doing so a New Republic was born but it did not fall when Palpatine called The Republic an Empire of his own design. (SW3)

 

I created this thread to see what people thought, mainly, because I've been present for discussions in which people argued that the Empire was good and that the Rebellion was nothing more than a group of terrorists. That was way back in '98.


Ok, that?s cool. But then why are you patronizing people with short strongly argumentive opinionated remarks? Your actions speak differently then your quoted reasons.


Actually, it is. Seldon was saying that you should never judge a book based on page one. I'm saying there are times when judging a book by page one is completely reasonable.


So how is this the time? Your still out of context because you aren?t sitting down with a 1000 years of time. If you were, you?d eventually read more than one page.

I think a topic of this magnitude and interest would require reading more than a single page if your going to argue points.

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If its useless, than how can it survive for over a thousand years?

Maybe because GL doesn't know about politics? I'm arguing that I couldn't have survived for a thousand years....

I suppose Anarchy would be a better choice. Under anarchy, there is no government and everyone can practice true freedom without constraint. Everyone is reduced to rely on themselves and their own abilities.

Ho, ho. I'm not arguing for an anarchy. I'm arguing that there's no need for the Republic - there are still the planetary, federal, and state governments.

I have to run now. I'll get back to Seldon's posts later.

Depa Billaba

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WOW! I wasn?t speaking realistically here. This is a movie. I?m just going with the flow. What do you feel is an alternative? The Empire? How is that an alternative? Please explain why?

As far as your post DARTH-SELDON. Agreed!

Well except for the fact that things in SW could never happen in real life. Who knows what the future can bring???

 

Depa seems not to have understood my analogy so I will fix it.

You cannot publish a book review of a 600 page book if you only read the first page.

I think that sums up what is happening here.
We have only seen a very small part of the 1000 year old Republic, so lets not judge it, because we cannot do so logically.

Yes Depa is the Empire so much better?

-Seldon

 

Ho, ho. I'm not arguing for an anarchy. I'm arguing that there's no need for the Republic - there are still the planetary, federal, and state governments.


I ran out of time before so I couldn't address this. So your saying eliminate the Republic and let the planet governments remain. Well now you have a "Confederacy" rather than a Federal Republic system. Movie fiction is one thing, but, Confederacies are the worst form of democractic goverments ever dreamed of. They don't work at all. Without a federal/Republic system in line, the planets would have no civil means or ruling party to settle disputes. Trade and currency matters would be a disaster, and bickering would probably lead to many wars. Instead of a 1000 years of peace and justice, you would have a 1000 years of utter chaos.

So whats your idea of the right government?

 

I still don't have enough time, but let me just make some general comments since Darth-Seldon and QuiGonJames seem intent on portraying me in a bad light just because I happen to be arguing against the Republic (which is not the same as arguing in favor of the Empire):

I often play the Devil's Advocate because I enjoy debating with people. Sometimes, like in this case, the only way to have a debate is by taking a position that is against common perception: aka, is the democracy really any better than a dictatorship. However, I take all my arguments seriously. Just because I'm debating a position that I don't believe in doesn't mean that I post some stupid, easily-refuted arguments. Go take a look at "Are All Tuskens Bad?" in the Attack of the Clones forum.

Let's look at a situation that Binary_Sunset posted in one of the "How is the Empire Evil" thread in the Classic Trilogy (I'm paraphrasing):

Imagine, if you will, going to a hotel. After everybody's here, the manager asks you, "Okay, we're now going to vote on what all of us will eat for today. How many want burgers? Only 20%? We're not going to be having burgers then. Soup? 53%? Okay, what soup are we going to be having? Onion soup? 23%? Tomato soup? 53%? Okay, we'll have Tomato soup, then..."

In a democracy, it's the representatives doing it. In a dictatorship, it's the manager choosing it. But in both governments, nobody gets everything that they wanted, so neither government is really the best option. But since you need a government, you might as well live in a democracy - however, the Republic isn't needed. Most planets already seem to have a planetary governments. What's the need for the Republic?

And whoever said that I was changing the game in the middle - that's really ironic, considering I was the one who started this thread. It's true that I was asking for a comparison, but how can you make a comparison without analyzing each government?

Edit: RE What I have in my profile: I guess the sarcasm was lost on whoever thought I was being serious.

Depa Billaba

 

I have a few points,

1. You CANNOT simply something as complicated as government into something as simple as ordering food!

2. Why bother starting a debate thread about a certain subject if you don't plan to have time to debate your claims or debate at all?
We have supplied and argument and you have just shrugged and said "okay"

-Seldon

 

Seldon: I never said that I wouldn't argue - I just said that I didn't have the time to argue today. It's the weekend, and I have a horribly slow internet access on top of all the homework that I have to do. May I ask you why you're being so hostile to me?

RE Food Analogy: That's an analogy. It's supposed to show why democracy isn't the bestest government. And yes, it's true - "Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all others." All governments are bad, but democracies are better than the rest, so it's a good thing that we're moving in that direction.

Depa Billaba

 

I still don't have enough time, but let me just make some general comments since Darth-Seldon and QuiGonJames seem intent on portraying me in a bad light just because I happen to be arguing against the Republic (which is not the same as arguing in favor of the Empire):


Neither SELDON or myself placed you in a bad light and its not because you choose to speak against the Republic. You have placed yourself in a bad light. Playing Devil?s advocate is one thing, but I think you went to the extreme on this topic by acting patronizing. It shows a lack of respect when one talks down to others after openly inviting all into a forum of discussion. That?s nothing SELDOM or myself are in control or responsible for. But anyway, I don?t wish to bicker about this truthfully. Lets have a discussion on these topics that?s in a mutual respecting manner to each other.


In a democracy, it's the representatives doing it. In a dictatorship, it's the manager choosing it. But in both governments, nobody gets everything that they wanted, so neither government is really the best option. But since you need a government, you might as well live in a democracy.


Nobody getting ?everything that they want? is not necessarily a bad thing. Who says we should get all that we want. That?s would be self-serving and the point of a government is to represent people as a whole. The point of a government is to preserve a way or quality of life and allow people to grow. So if the Republic did it for over a 1000 years, I?d say that?s a success. It can?t be perfect, because, people aren?t perfect. Its all about people.


However, the Republic isn't needed. Most planets already seem to have a planetary governments. What's the need for the Republic?


Your speaking of a ?confederacy? and those are the worst form of democratic governments. The USA colonies tried this system after the declaration of independence and it almost ripped them apart. That?s why the constitution was created and the federal government system was established.

You are right that committees are the worst at making decisions because there are too many different mindsets fighting. But committees are the best at coming up with ideas (like a think tank), seeing different points of view and creating solutions. But a manager is needed as you say. Initially, that?s what the chancellor is suppose to be. To keep order and to render final verdicts. A balance of power. Committees still need to have some decision making powers because it maintains balance and because many good point of views come from the bickering and discussions. Like the USA government, the congress makes laws (ideas and solutions) and the president signs or vetos them (Decides, rules and enforces).

 

Depa: I can only speak for myself but in my opinion I'm not being hostile to you. My problem is that you make one-sided comments and then you don't back it up.

You stated that all government is bad. Well I would like to see any of us survive without one! Without government there is chaos, so I do not understand your reasoning there at all.

Depa, have you ever been part of a government? Have you ever been to your state house to see the Senators and Reps debate? Have you ever done these things? I have been to my state house! I have seen elected offials do their jobs. I have seen that a democracy can work. Have you see it yourself? Or do you just make comments out of lack of knowledge on the subject?

-Seldon

 

ALL of you. Cool it. Remember, attack the argument, never the person.

 

Some of you have stated that you believe that there were something like 10,000 Senators in the old republic. I'm going to throw a number at you that will make anyone's arguments on the "that few cannot represent so many" side stronger.

I have read from official sources that there were only around a thousand seats in the Senate building. Assuming that, since Padme` was so insistent on being "present" for the Military Creation Act vote, Senators had to actually be IN THE BUILDING- the thousand-seat building- to vote. You would think they would therefore make the building large enough to hold all of the senators. Therefore, there must be only a thousand or so senators.

This would make the Senator/constituent ratio even more skewed. Therefore, it would seem like the people had a greater framework for government than we see in the films.

Planetary government alone would not suffice to keep tensions BETWEEN planets down. Without something regulating interplanetary trade (although the Republic certainly didn't seem to be very effective to do so), aggression, and general unease, interplanetary travel would be inherently dangerous- not merely from the dangers posed by space travel, but from the dangers of piracy, attack, et cetera.

The Empire certainly seems to have greater control over interplanetary conflict than the Old Republic, but its reign of fear makes it an inherently unstable, "iffy" form of government.

 

I dunno if anyone has brought this up but the Empire was very pro-human. They didn't care for non-humans that much. The Empire felt humans to be supeior to all other species. The Republic at least attempted to treat all specices fairly and equal.

 

The Empire did not keep any order over the galaxy, The empire lasted only a few years, All of those years there were rebel alliances and civil wars all across the galaxy. There was chaos and war during the entire rule of Palpatine.

The Republic had 1000 years of peace between all peoples.
The last three years of the Republic were civil wars, but for 1000 years it was peace.

Look at the figures! The Repbulic has a much better record for keeping the peace!

-Seldon

 

Repbulic.
What's that???

 

Sorry about that Laz, little typo....As you know I meant to write Republic.

-Seldon

 

"Look it is fiction. Whether or not the governments would have survived is pointless. It is all fake. Lightsabers don't work in real life, there is no such things as The Force, we don't have hyperdrive....should I go on. Things in SW don't exist in real life, because SW is fake! "

I for one dont think any of us here can ever PROVE star wars is fake. It happened a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

 

It seems Depa Billaba was merely cloaking, as she says, the concept of is a democracy really better than a dictatorship ? in SW clothes. For the sake of debate, not because as some seem to feel, she really supports a dictatorship or the Empire, which seems to offend some. Am I right Depa ?

Anyhoo, the simple ways to express the virtues of the flawed Republic over the Empire are two fold (maybe three )

First, and we cannot ignore this, :
Intent
The intention of the Republic was to provide ,as much as possible, the best outcome for the most people.
It's ideological intent was to provide as fair as possible representation (on a planetary scale, which is the smallest you can realistically manage on a galactic scale) for all the varied sentients in the Galaxy. The *aim* of the Republic was to aid the people of the Galaxy in living their lives. To offer, as best it could, protection in unity and numbers, for the free choice of the way of life for Republic members. To express the idea that all sentient creatures are more or less equal and should have a say in their lives. To create a forum- the senate, that would, under rule of commonly agreed law, settle disputes, prevent conflict and deal justice.
In summery it's intent focuses upon the good of the many.

That's the shorthand version

Intent of the Empire:
The intent of the Empire was to provide a galaxy spanning Empire for the Glory of one man. Darth Sedious.
(Before anyone tries to say, 'perhaps he wanted to just run things better' remember he's a Sith- no humanistic motives there) It's aim was to put power of life and death over billions of sentient people in the hands of one man. Its aim was to crush any divergence of choice from that laid out by Sedious/Palpatine through use of force. It was to put all the choices of life for the galaxy in the hands of one man and enforce them, whether they were good for the people of the galaxy or not. It was to create 'rule by fear' in killing without any form of Justice, any the Empire (which means Sedious and his agents) thought it needed to. Without due processes or scale of law agreed by society in general.
It was to through military might dominate, subjugate and cower a galaxy to the will of one melevolent man.(He's a Sith remember ?)
It's intent was based around 'the most good for one man's ideal (never mind his life even) over the good of the many.

Given this, and while not ignoring the fact that the Republic often strugglede with aspects of it's mandate, it is clear that the Republic is a better choice. Especially when you factor in the basic principle of a right to live. The Republic respects this. The Empire doesn't.

The greater good of many or the greater good of one ?
Core intents.

Yes the Republic failed in some area's but for the whole it worked a long time. One could argue that it could have been reformed to work had Sedious not smashed it. Or that it was only the Sith Lords meddling that took it to the very very high levels of corruption and ineptitude. The Empire is the will of one man, and one man cannot decide the well being of an entire galaxy, even if he awsn't a Sith who actually didn't give a damn other than to support his 'grand vision.'


In a case of two bad choices, we must support the Republic.

Ideologically we cannot support the Empire.

Need I bother with secondly and thirdly ?

SHB JR