Saga The Empire wasn't Evil Enough

First of all, this is relentless nitpicking about a saga which I love more than any other. It's just fun to discuss what would make these thought provoking films even more perfect:

Maybe I'm numb because I've seen these movies so many times, and it but...

We should have seen more of the Empire causing suffering among the common man, in order to become more emotionally invested in the Rebellion's cause. The destruction of Alderaan was a start, but we should have seen some establishing shots, characters, seen them die.

I watched RotS back to back with ANH recently and realized how much better RotS is at eliciting emotions, at least from me, just because we see little kids die, etc.

Also:

Why did Palpatine want to rule the galaxy anyways? What did he get out of it? Evil often comes out of self-interest. Did he want material things? Sex? Tax breaks for the wealthiest citizens? Did he just get off on power? Was he a Hitler-type who in some f'd up way thought he was doing the right thing?

 

As you said yourself, they killed billions of people with one hit just to show their strenght. Its like a nazi country nuking a small country to demonstrate their power. Not evil enough? Cmon. Even without Alderaan you have rules where theres no democracy and people and their voices dont count. Where only one evil guy decides and where everything is controlled. Then theres genocide/Jedi purge. It all smells like Nazi Germany. Not evil enough?

The answer's the same as for any dictator. People will always want power and some abuse it, such is the case with dictatorship. He simply enjoys the power he has and the fact that he rules the galaxy and does whatever he wants with whoever he wants. He enjoys being feared and enjoys the aspect of the worlds and its inhabitants as being his, almost like slaves. Self gratification wouldve been the shortest answer

 

They blew up an entire planet. Lock thread.

 

VadersFollower pretty much summed up what I would have said. I do understand that you don?t exactly get the same emotional ?punch? as seen in the Prequels? but that is because ANH was made in the ?70?s and is predominantly a ?kids? film of that era. In that sense, if it were created today, it would have been done differently (people being killed, Coruscant in tyranny, etc). But the act was there none-the-less. The ?planned? Live Action Series should cover more of this ground?

In regards to why Palpatine wanted power ? apart from what VF said ? I would guess it would be the same as Hitler or Stalin in many regards. They wanted to establish their own ideology upon the known ?world?, for a myriad of reasons. Palpatine?s ideology was simple, and in many ways aligns with National Socialism:


- Establish a dictatorial regime with the thought that people are better led by someone strong then allow a tangled bureaucracy rule at the mercy of the people; basically he was anti-democracy.

- To expel all enemies-of-the-state so no-one can challenge him. In other words anyone opposed to his ideas dies? this has psychopathic reasons.

- To form a centralized nation, unified as a single organ. Once they are all united ? in other words abide by the same ideology ? he is unchallenged and, in essence, the state is strong.

- To fulfill the goals of the Sith and destroy the Jedi? I guess like an extremist of any religion?


Essentially Palpatine believes in Imperialism and wants power? the same motivations most dictators have.

 

Interesting that people are assigning political/social motivations to Palpatine. They make sense, don't get me wrong, but the prequels (ROTS especially) made me think his goal was more factional (Sith) than individual.

An aside: I've often decried the (perceived by me) simplification of the Jedi and Sith into representatives of the sides of the Force. I think that perception is connected to things like the above. Personally I think Palpatine as a free agent who cares only for power and has no cultural allegiance save to his own Empire, works (and is scarier). And coincidentally, this is how he was depicted pre-prequels. I don't know what GL had in mind, but he was never called a Sith until TPM, instead being assigned titles like sorceror or dark Jedi master. Vader was the Dark Lord of the Sith - a title which did come from GL - and probably relates to the second draft notion of Darklighter, a former Jedi student who becomes the leader of a band of 'Sith pirates.' He teaches them to use the dark side and they become the Bogan-using bodyguards of the Emperor.

Anyway, my point was, I prefer a more personally-motivated Emperor, but it seems to me from the PT that he's acting in the name of the Sith as a member of their culture, not as an individual doing everything for his own Power.

 

I wonder if the lives of the ordinary people were affected as much by the transition Empire. Remember, Clone Wars were big and devastating, the initial peace was probably celebrated. Even Palpatine had to keep some semblance of the Rebpublic, such as the Senate.

Luke's childhood seems to be pretty happy, even though he doesn't like the Empire. You could probably go about your daily business just fine, unless you were unlucky enough to buy the droids the Imperials had been looking for.

 

I think what the original poster, metalbikini is referring to is not necessarily that the Empire wasn't evil enough, but the fact that we didn't see much results of their evil doings through character emotions.

For example:

If Leia kicked, screamed her head off, cried, and drew blood from Tarkin as he was blowing up her planet... then the Empire would have seemed evil enough. If during the battle of Hoth, we had some rebels getting their arms blown off in the trenches and some of them screaming for their mothers as they were bleeding to death... then the Empire would have seemed evil enough. If we actually saw Vader killing the younglings, and the other youngling's realistic reactions... well I think you get my point.

These were not R rated movies.

 

Probably not; in much the same way that, unless you were a Jew or enemy-of-the-state, you?re life didn?t really change much in Nazi Germany. It?s the same with many of these regimes in that the atmosphere which perpetuates their rise allows them to establish themselves with the support of the people without much ?interference? with the daily lives of the populous. It?s only once the ?celebration? of the brief ?golden years? which these states bring has stopped do the people rise up. The biggest threat to any dictatorship is when the people stop celebrating the short term benefits the regime has brought?

 

Ugh

Last time I checked, this forum was dealing with:

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Palpatine's possible interests in Twilek kiddie porn & the lucrative Rodian heroin market just aren't relevant. Perhaps a vicious occupation of Alderaan employing gang-rapes & mass executions would have engaged audiences more than blowing it up with a superlaser. Could have sucked in another couple of hundred million bucks at the box office.

 

I actually think the original poster has a point. The Empire is established as very evil in ANH: murder, torture, genocide, the whole nine yards. But it's not reinforced in the later movies. In TESB, Imperial troops fight the Rebels, who are not exactly unarmed, innocent civilians. Then they occupy the Cloud City - but that was primarily because Lando had a misfortune to know Han. We don't even know what happens after the heroes escape. In ROTJ, the Imperial troops don't even seem to bother Ewoks in any way. I suppose it has to do something with the focus of the story shifting from more epic "the farmboy against the Empire" to more personal "the hero fulfills his destiny and redeems his father". But still, seeing the larger political context would still be a big plus in my book.

 

While I hope this is one of the subjects the television show will expand on, I think the Empire it portrayed as evil enough from ROTS to ROTJ. It's pretty much summed up by the moment Luke discovers Owen and Beru dead, with the music as it cuts to the Death Star. Nostalgic for me.

 

The Empire wasn't evil enough? Heard it all now!

 

The destruction of Alderaan was the moment that cemented the Empire as an evil force but you have to remember it was born out of a republic. It wasn't a conquered galaxy, it was a response to a threat created by the Chancellor. For those first few years as the Empire hunted down Jedi, every Jedi death was probably celebrated like the death of Bin Laden. They were terrorists, insurrectionists, enemies of the state and so whatever steps the Empire, which had the support of the people thanks to a charismatic leader took, they were seen as necessary actions to secure the peace. But rather than phasing out the massive military created for the Clone Wars when the Jedi "threat" was over, the Empire expanded the military, probably calling them a security force to keep the peace.

You have to remember that up until the completion of the Death Star, the Empire still had a lot of support. The Emperor needed that support to stay in power but as he tightened his grip and the rebellion began to take shape, viewpoints began to change. The Empire was created to ensure peace and security but it became more and more apparent that the price for this was freedom. The rebellion began to gather support in the Senate and then two things happened that ultimately sealed the Empire's fate. The first was the decision to dissolve the Senate. With regional power being handed over to military governors the Empire became a true military dictatorship. Before that, there was at least the illusion that the Senate had some power or some say in how the galaxy was run but with the Senate gone and the governors taking control, operating in relative autonomy and answering only to the Emperor rather than any civil authority I think people began to realise what the Rebels had been talking about for years. The second thing, and it happened on the very same day, was the destruction of Alderaan. This was an example of unchecked military power with the death of millions being treated as something that was simply necessary to make a point to the rest of the galaxy.

From that point on there was no turning back. It took 20 years but the evilness of the Empire was fully revealed and with the military being in direct control under the Emperor, there was nothing the galaxy could do. Their only hope now rested with the Rebel Alliance.

Is the Empire as a whole evil though? Well the Emperor and Vader certainly were and the governors who controlled the sectors of the galaxy were more than happy to do what was necessary to maintain their grip. But much of the military was probably integrated into the New Republic after the war. You have millions of clone soldiers who are programmed to obey their superiors and it's possible that many stormtroopers became part of a security force as the Empire transitioned back to an Empire. Certainly the high ranking officers of the Empire were put on trial.

But the Empire was the Republic. The descent into "evil" began long before the clone wars, long before the rise of Palpatine. The lives of the average citizen may not have changed much under the Empire because the Republic as a whole was already inept and uncaring and caught up in the game of bureaucracy and power. It wasn't until the Empire became a true military dictatorship with the destruction of Alderaan and the dissolution of the Senate that people were pulled out of apathy.

 

These may be the same thing from his POV.

 

I kind of agree in ANH. As a kid watching it, the most evil thing they did was strangling the rebel at the start. I felt nothing when the Death Star blew up a big blue/green circle that I had no vested interest in.

 

That's all I meant. Purely from a film making standpoint they could have made Alderaan's destruction hit home more.

I really like your point of view on this Jedsithor.