ST The enigma of Vader's remains..

I'm not expecting this one to last long, but here goes anyway. Now as I understand it, Luke is the only being alive in the GFFA who knows of the pyre where he burnt his fathers suited body. So just how on earth did whoever owns the helmet remains (Kylo/Uber) find out the location of its whereabouts if it was only Luke who knew? I could be wrong, but that's not something I could envisage Luke freely telling anyone. Perhaps Leia knew, which would make sense. But beyond that? Nobody. As for Han, it's debatable he's even aware of Vaders true identity. So, the question remains..

 

If true, this MSW rumor could help to explain it. The 'after party' attackers might not have known about Vader's remains, but there could have been another reason to revisit the Endor battleground. Perhaps the 'after party' party were reinforcements that arrived too late, but discovered the pyre as it was likely near the battleground.

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/08/s...oks-dooku-connection-leia-hutts-lucas-vision/

Edit: FWIW I think it's a good topic for a thread.

 

Thanks TK. Well, if that indeed turns out to be the case, it's pretty weak story telling. But that was last year. There has to be an in film explanation of how they came to be in possession of that charred helmet. I hope it ain't the one from that MSW article.

 

One of the Ewoks could have picked it up, they were using the helmets as drums in the celebration and then they were probably being kept as trophies. Some time later, a stranger stole it or bought it from them.

 

Moving off topic a little, I think that the part about Luke going on an adventure that takes him back to the origin of evil in the universe is the most interesting section of that article. I think that's exactly what happened pre-TFA: Luke awoke something he shouldn't have..

 

It could be as simple as:

Kylo: A Sith acolyte named XXXX could not believe that the Sith had perished. He needed to see the place of their alleged demise with his own eyes to accept that such a thing could be true. He searched the forest moon of Endor, beginning near the site of the battle. It wasn't long until he found this (Kylo points to Vader's helmet).

 

The Force probably guided him. Maxi big da Force.

 

I think it kinda alludes to Kylo being Leia and Han's son. A dark family secret he inadvertently discovers at some point perhaps? And with the Darkside burning inside of him, he feels compelled to travel to Endor to investigate. Just a theory

 

It could all be apart of the academy scenes; through the flashbacks we know Kylo is at the academy, their is a possibility Luke was not there, and group of reinforcements not only killed all the younglings and took Kylo/ or Kylo etc.. was with them but also took anything connected with Darth Vader or Luke Skywalker. Maybe Luke had it hidden in the academy.

 

I don't think there has to be an explanation at all, honestly. Or part of the flashbacks, either. It's a freaky little detail, that Ren is off his rocker enough to talk to a melted helmet. I don't think the audience needs to have the backstory filled in as to how he went and got it for it to serve its purpose in the film, especially at that point in the film. It's going to be established by then (or likely, during this very scene) that dude is a huge fan of the Sith. He's a collector. "Oh, he went and collected that helmet" is all you'll really need.

It also leaves an out for later films - if you *do* want to tie in his acquiring the helmet to a plot point later, then you can. But The Force Awakens doesn't need to stop down and answer how he got the mask, when the answer to that question doesn't actually further the story any.

 

This is closer to where I'm leaning. Luke burns Vaders suit on Endor but takes what is left back to Tatooine where he eventually starts his academy.

Now why Luke even leaves the academy long enough for something bad to happen, I don't know. Maybe he was separating Rey from Ren? Maybe he was off tracking down Jedi artifacts like his fathers saber?

But the academy is assaulted (maybe from within) and Kylo acquires the helmet.

 

I don't think Vader being Lukes father will be any secret, Luke doesn't seem to be ashamed and I imagine his return to the light will be a story Luke tells to his pupils. If Kylo was indeed an early student of Luke, it isn't a stretch to believe he would know Endor is his final resting place.

As for the full details of the retrieval I think this will likely be an offscreen event although we could get a quick glimpse in the flashback, wasn't there a rumour at one point of a hand pulling Vaders helmet from the ashes?

As for Luke keeping the helmet this just seems off to me and I doubt they'd go that route.

 

It's acquisition may not further the story, but an explanation of how it came to be in the possession of Kylo/Uber is needed, surely? Any fan watching will surely ask themselves this question if the helmet just appears as it does in the trailer. Nothing extensive. Just something brief that makes total sense within the story. It wouldn't be too much to ask.

 

Nah, it's not needed, and for the reasons already given. Unless that helmet ends up being a key plot point, or necessary to the advancement of the plot/characterization, the acquiring of the helmet isn't an important detail. What's important to building the characterization of Kylo Ren is that he has it, and that he talks to it. The "How" of his getting it isn't needed for the purposes of the story, I don't think. It actually plays stronger if you have to imagine the scenario yourself. It's the kind of world-building detail that helps immerse an audience, and it worked well in the Original Trilogy in more than a few places.

We never saw how Han won the Falcon, for example. Or how Leia got the Boushh armor. Or how Lando & Chewie infiltrated Jabba's palace. We didn't need to.

 

Basing this on the third example of your response, we know Lando and Chewie attempted to rescue Han through Threepio "Lando and Chewbacca never returned from that awful place". The other 2 are irrelevant examples. An outfit which noone in their right mind would ever wonder about, and something that happened in Han's past which would be ill fitting if it were shown at that point in ESB's story anyway. "Hey I won her fair and square, remember?" *fade out to sabaac game in the past where Han indeed wins the Falcon". Do you see? Being in possession of the helmet needs an explanation as to how they came about it. People watching will wonder this.

 

I know. What I'm saying is that some audience questions don't need to be overtly answered. I don't believe that helmet's acquisition is one of them. We just disagree on whether or not his having that artifact needs an explanation. The fact a question could possibly be raised within a segment of the audience doesn't mean that question needs to be answered. I don't think any of my other examples are irrelevant, or rather, that you consider them irrelevant sorta speaks to my point: You didn't need the backstories to those acquisitions to follow the story, and so the prospect of the film stopping to point out how they got those things seems pointless to you, right? I'm saying that's likely how the Vader helmet in this movie would work.

"A fan might have a question" isn't the best reason to interrupt the narrative flow of your movie, is what I'm arguing.

These sorts of questions are basically why the publishing section of the merchandising arm exists.

 

Acquiring Vader's charred helmet isn't a question that needs to be answered upon it appearing on the plinth bobbyroberts it can be settled before we even bare witness to that scene much earlier in the film. The only example I can think of which could be akin is the scene at the very beginning of the original Nightmare on Elm Street, where we see Freddy Krueger making his infamous glove. Do you understand?

 

No, I get you. I just don't agree with you, is all. And I don't think the Glove example is a good one, because Freddy uses the glove on all his victims going forward. Seeing how he created it isn't necessary, really - but considering how much that glove represents him, and plays a part in what he does in the film, an explanation makes more sense than Ren's acquiring of this helmet. Ren won't be using the helmet to attack people, or wearing the helmet during the film. It's just a collectible.

But that said, it's not like I think it's a deal-breaker or anything, and if an explanation does pop up on the movie, so long as its entertaining and helps push the story and/or the characterization along, I'll be happy to be wrong.

it's strange place to be, 10 years later, deriving just as much enjoyment from being wrong as I used to from being right.

 

There could also be an argument made that Vaders suit has zero connection to the Force. (As well as lightsabers). His body contained the midichlorians which provided his connection to the Force. "I'm checking your BLOOD for infections."
Therefore, Kylo talking to the helmet rumor would prove he is TOTALLY off his rocker.

 

kylo could have dreams or visions that told him where to find it.

 

I think the place a Force user dies, and/or their resting place, probably gives off a very strong Force presence and can probably be felt by other Force users. So if someone Force sensitive was looking for Vader's remains they would know to go to Endor, where the great battle took place, to start their search. And being Force sensitive it wouldn't be long before their senses lead them to Vader's remains. Seems pretty logical to me.

 

I hope that they basically ignore the entire concept of midichlorians for this film. I wish it'd be canon that that's basically older, inaccurate knowledge 'cause it's such a lame concept. :n: also the mask actually possessing powers seemed strange to me too. I always thought that it would just be a Sith collectable that Kylo Ren talks to (showing that he's kind of crazy) and that it's mostly symbolic, not that he actually gains special dark side force powers from talking to a ****ing mask lol.

 

Perhaps Luke moved his father's remains to the Jedi Temple and the mask was looted during the massacre. Maybe Vader's remains is what drew THE SEVEN to the Temple. The saber going in one direction (with Maz), the mask another (The Seven). Could be that Kylo is hoping to reunite them for some nefarious reason.

 

This was played with in Rebels with the remains of Luminary Unduli and in Clone Wars with Darth Bane.

 

The Inquisitor even implied Luminary's remains had lured other Jedi before Kanan. I think it's a safe bet to assume this is how Vader's remains were found.