Characters The Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku - Happy Life Day Sir Christopher Lee! (27 May)

*Walks in thread in awe*

Um... I'm a newly fledged Dooku convertee

*waves*

Blame Kynstar!

 

So, Kynstar is corrupting people to the Dooku cause.

So....Here's my new Dooku question for discussion.

If Anaking hadn't cut off his head when Palpy said "Do it..." Would Dooku have realized that he had made a mistake becoming Palpy's apprentice and gone back to the light side with Kenobi and Skywalker and helped defeat Palpaitne?

Let the discussions begin...

 

Most probably, betrayal is a hard thing to accept. But I think Dooku would still dislike certain aspects of the Republic.


...as for Dooku's relationships with other characters, my thought line keeps coming back to Grievous
I mean, that scene in Obsession where Dooku finds Grievous all beaten up.

 

No.

I don't think that Dooku would have gone back to the light side if Anakin hadn't killed him. I don't think a Sith apprentice goes back to the light side just because things don't work out with the master. (It's so odd to think of Dooku as just an apprentice, but he had to be.)

If Dooku had gotten away somehow, I don't think he would have lost the hate and anger that fuels the dark side, which I think is necessary for going over to the light side. Dooku would have just felt really betrayed by Palpatine and he would have started out trying to undermine him as soon as possible. Even without his hands, Dooku wouldn't give up on revenge. To go to the light side, Dooku would have to see the value in not taking revenge.

 

Stupid me for not knowing how to unlock a locked thread

Thanks so much MamaVader for cluing me in on how!

And because of my lack of 'vision' (well intelligence on this matter) Mr. Christopher Lee's Lifeday has come and gone. Back on May 25 (yes believe it or not I was gonna do the ole happy lifeday bit...but the thread was locked and juz didn't think to ask a mod or anybody else for help...was sorta at C4 hehehe) Mr. Lee celebrated his 85th b'day if I'm not mistaken.

So here's a belated Lifeday wish! I so hope he was able to spend it with his family and had fun!!

Thanks so much for all your acting portrayals and allowing some time for the land of Star Wars! I truly hope the future b'days will be enjoyable as the past ones have!

And of course forgive a lady for a passion for one of the characters

I've also enjoyed many of the other movies he's starred in and have copies of them as well (as if I wouldn't?

Once again, a happy belated b'day to Christopher Lee who played the mysterious ex-Jedi Count Dooku of Serenno and leader of the Separatists also Sith Apprentice in Ep II and III.

 

Firstly, I also have to wish Mr Christopher Lee a belated Happy Life Day too! Because he's just awesome in general~

And secondly, I must say yay that this thread is back! I saw it but it wasn't active (in the slightest. XD) so I couldn't join in, though I wanted to. So hurray it's back!

 

I was watching Christopher Lee last night in some of his old movies.
What an illustrious career he has had, and he made the role of Dooku something special.

Sometimes I just wish he could/would have seen through Palpatine and just walked away.

Would he have rethought things? I don't know. Surely Anakin must have seen through a few of Palpatine's lies to him, but still he kept going.

Evil is a tough path, because once you are on it, backing up and restarting, and remaking damaged relatioships is so hard. It took Anakin a precious gift of his son to even be able to try it.

I wonder if Dooku would have something that important to him to make him rethink.

 

I think just the fact of what Palpatine did would be enough to make him realize he'd taken the wrong path. (Unless he really is Stover's crazy Dooku). The Dook was a highly principled Jedi for more years than Palpy was even alive. How can you just forget all that? Especially when the path you've taken to try to rectify things has turned out to be spectacularly the wrong answer?

 

You silly woman...

I told you to pm somebody... thats Kynstar for you... never wanting to pester people...

Oh well.

Happy Belated Life Day oh ye portrayer of the Enigmatic and Mysterious Count Dooku (aka Darth Tyranus...)

We should have gone to opening ceremonies and had cake...

You live and learn. Nice to see this thread dug up from the vast reaches of the Nether-board.

So, Kyn... You could start up a new line of Dooku goodness and discussion...???

How old was Dooku in RotS when he was cut off from his future life days??

 

I always assume that Dooku was in his 80's, more or less the same age as Lee. Qui-Gon's age is also used to date Dooku since he's supposed to have been Dooku's first padawan.

I think that Dooku was lured away from the light side with the promise of an 'ordered' Sith rule. The Old Republic certainly had gotten corrupt and Palpatine really knew how to get at people.

If Qui-Gon had survived I wonder if he would have been able to redeem Dooku? But the Jedi did not think in terms of redemption for Sith. It took someone completely out-of-the-box like Luke to come up with that.

One of my favorite Christopher Lee bits is in the LOTR DVD extras, when he recites the inscription on the Ring of Power. In Elvish. What a guy. If he'd only been younger, he might have been a terrific Gandalf, but the technology wouldn't have allowed them to do those movies any sooner.

 

83

 

In refrence to Hyperspace's question; No. Dooku would always have his own greedy agenda to fulfill and was already to far gone down the path of the Dark Side to sudenly "see the light." Besides, I think it's cooler that way. He would seem to wus out if he just decided to turn good.

 

It's very funny ... people react to this issue as if some lightswitch goes on or off and -- *blink* -- the person is either good or bad.

In actuality, it's a very long, hard process. Deciding one has made mistakes and being able to admit that to oneself is just a first step. I see any truly redeemed Sith on a long, steep learning curve after that.

 

Welcome new faces! (well names ) Do join in or bring up any ideas/questions!

(Yeah I didn?t wanna pester folks on CIV days I know crazy of me to not have!)

I agree with LLL it is a long, slow process either way. Unless you juz go off the deep end for revenge and give your heart truly to the Dark side. Though it would take time to learn everything Sithly so to speak (as Vader learns over a 20 yr timeframe I?m sure). Sith Masters don?t teach everything to their students, cuz then they (the students) would take out the Masters. (except for Dooku though?I took that message that he told Asajj in Dark Rendezvous to heart. He stated he was too old to become the ?Master? and I think he might?ve been actually telling her the truth when she was harassing him about trying to make her his apprentice so they could off Sidious - but Dooku was correct though, once her revenge trip was done what was gonna be left for her to ?hate/rage? on?)

As for anybody who might've stood a chance to bring the Count back (for those who thought the possibility might've been there) Qui would have tried, I do believe. Though Dooku might not have turned back, I see Qui like Luke in this matter of attempting to bring back the guy from the Dark. And with Yoda's help it might have been possible, but the only aspect that would stand in the way of Dooku turning back would be the corruption of the Republic. It was still there. I think that would have stopped him from turning back if there was an attempt like in Dark Rendezvous. In my humble opinion, Yoda almost had him. But Palpy knew what buttons to push by sending Obi and Ani to 'help' Yoda. Yeah, help Yoda indeed! Hmf!

But if Yoda had brought Dooku back... the reason why the Count left in the first place (besides Qui's death - even Yoda believed that had a play...I think that was mentioned in Labyrinth of Evil) was the corruption of the Senate/Republic. The man was tired of fighting for a corrupted nation (so to speak). He figured if he couldn't do it as a Jedi perhaps he could on the outside the Order (he had money galore; which Palps also utilized thru Dooku). Shoot Dooku prob (even w/o Palp's thoughts/orders) would have founded/raised an army of his own in attempt to 'bring' order to the chaos of the Republic. To 'rebuild' it as it should have been like in the olden days. It juz so happened that Palps was in charge and Dooku prob thought he could skirt both the Light and Dark (like Vergere stated to Jacen Solo in the NJO books) and utilized both sides to bring order. Unfortunately Dooku had always 'lusted' for more power, always strived to be the best so his 'thoughts/wants' on skirting both ways couldn't work for him. He did not have the right mindset and eventually succumbed to the darkness. Well that's always been my humble opinion and it appears that thru differ novels it is coming out as such. Sad story indeed. (which is also why I think he never went fully Sith cuz he still had that slight notion in his mind (henceforth never the eyes bit with Dooku - then again it could have been juz Mr. Lee not wanting to wear the contacts but than again...who truly knows, eh? In my humble opinion I think he never fully truly gave in all the way, juz about and if he'd stayed alive longer he might've fully succumbed, but we'll never know now, eh?)

As for the age bit, yep he was around the same age as the actor for Ep III And I so agree! He rocked in his younger days and even in his days of now (specially in LotR movies! I so also enjoyed the extas! Thanks so much Mr. Jackson for allowing all that extra stuff to be done and added into the films/dvds!

 

My bad, LLL. I honestly did not stop to give it any serious thought, in terms of the human psychology behind a hypothetical question posed about an already fictional charcter. I guess I was just thinking in more broad sweeping achetypal themes of good vs evil, and how I see Dooku fitting into the Achetypal formula.

If I sound like a smart ass, I apologize. (Insomnia is my excuse). The simple fact is that I have never thrown myself all together into the extended universe ("What did he say?!?") I've read a few of the EU books, and have liked them, but when I think of "what if" questions like the one posed by Hyperspace, I tend to think of them in terms of a 2 hour movie, and how they would be resolved within those confines.

I did enjoy the idea put out there by Kynstar of Qui Gon and/or Yoda taking it on themselves to bring Dooku back. I think you should run with that, Kynstar.

Long story short, I need to get back into reading the EU books.

 

Hm. That's an interesting perspective -- it really wouldn't have occurred to me to think of it as an EU thing so much as a fanfic thing. Certainly, in Dooku's case including or excluding EU stuff can have a pretty dramatic effect on your characterization expectations, but more generally speaking, if someone asks a "What if?" question it simply doesn't occur to me to treat it as a question about how the change could have worked out in the context of movies.

And, well, I got into Star Wars fanfic partly by reading FernWithy/JediGaladriel, who does not much care for the EU but wrote very extensive AUs based on movie continuity only. So I really don't tend to associate the two.

I don't think redemption is ever wussy, really, but I agree that trying to fit Dooku's redemption into the movies would be... challenging? I'm sure there are ways it could have been done, but there would have to be some major changes even if the only point you consider is how pivotal the discovery of Sidious was in the existing plot.

I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.

There does seem to be a lot of confusion, not just in Star Wars but across various fandoms, about the relative significance of the decision to change and the follow-through. You get some people who seem to think that announcing the decision is enough and then everything's hunky-dory, no consequences... and then others who seem to think that the decision should make no difference, that (even among people like readers who may be able to see into the character's head) the character should get no credit or support whatsoever until he or she has made full restitution. If the character dies before that point, tough luck. Which... in some ways is understandable, but also seems to leave the situation fairly hopeless in some cases.

 

When I deal with that situation, I go to real books about human psychology and personal growth, and these always inform my writing. (has a whole bookcase just about full).

I do tend to feel that, much as I love Dark Rendezvous and want to play with it, it's a contradiction of spirit of the actual Saga (though not of the EU) in having the Jedi actually consider the possibility of redemption from the Dark Side. I can work around it, but my movie-only interpretation is definitely that that option didn't cross anyone's mind but Luke's because it hadn't ever happened or appeared to be possible before.

What I made up about that is that Yoda actually HAS considered it here, tried it, and concluded that there is no way it can ever be done ... which is why he discourages Luke.

Which is stupid, because certainly he can see that Dooku was going to fold until Ani and Obi show up.

When it comes to The Dook, Yoda never was the brightest little green bulb on the tree, if you ask me. It'd be a TRIP to go back to Yoda's Padawan-hood to figure out what gave him such a HUGE blind spot where Dooku was concerned.

 

Mmmmmmm, Yoda's blind spot toward Dooku doesn't seem to me to be nearly as bad as Ki-Adi Mundi and Mace Windus', especially at the beginning of ATOC. Yeah, at the end of the movie, that party was over, but at the beginning it was all "He couldn't kill you; it's not in his character" and "He's a political idealist". I'd say that by the end of ATOC they had a proper appreciation of Dooku.

I wonder.....if most 'Lost Jedi' did not go dark like Dooku? Perhaps they would have been more suspicious if they had.

Speaking of blind spots.......in the ROTS novel it seems clear to me that Dooku had no idea that Palpatine was planning to destroy all the Jedi or what that clone army was really for. How much did Dooku know, I wonder?

 

A DOOKU BANNER!!!

It's beautiful!!!

 

It is very nice. *G* I pointed my cowriter to the board to see it even though she doesn't drop by all that often.

Well, yes, since I want to work with YR, I kind of fold it in that way too -- but my point is that I'm reinterpreting the movies to fit the fanfic (in this case the EU), and I know it. I don't think it's the natural interpretation of the movies; I think the idea was for Anakin and Luke to be unprecedented.

I really think most of them must not, and for that reason. There's a tendency to equate leaving the Jedi with turning evil, and obviously Dooku is part of the reason for that, but it seems clear to me that this wasn't an assumption the Jedi themselves were making.

 

I don't really worry much about what is being reinterpreted to go with what. It happens to work, and for that, I give thanks.

I agree about other former Jedi, however. I think most Jedi were so thoroughly inculcated into the cult of goodness that even if they did leave, they would never consider turning "bad."

I imagine they would have been disappointed in themselves, that they couldn't live up to the Jedi ideals.

 

I don't think you could have a redemption of Dooku without having a completely new, AU Saga. The redemptive character is generally the central one and, to me, would have to be someone who could go to the dark side and back. As an AU, that could be Dooku, and I think Qui-Gon, or Mace. I don't picture it being Yoda, Obi-Wan or Luke; while they might have moments of weakness and fear they seem to be firmly in the 'light' corner in the movies. And NOT Palpatine -- as Lucas says in the DVD commentary "<hehe> He's just so evil." I think that's what I dislike most about the whole 'dark Luke' business -- he had his big moment of crisis with Vader; he's already done that.

I tend to agree with that as well, with some qualifiers. I find it hard to believe that it has never, ever happened that someone has switched sides from dark to light. Perhaps in the ancient times of the order (video game times) side switching like that was not unheard of. But by the time you get to the Old Republic times something like that hasn't happened in so long that everyone automatically assumes that this option is now extinct.

But I wonder....when would Yoda have had the chance of trying to redeem Darth Vader? He certainly gave Anakin every chance and his best advice, but once Anakin (as Vader) went so far as to personally lead an extermination of the whole Jedi Order, Yoda wrote him off. In the movies it just looks like Yoda and Obi-Wan really do consider anyone who has become a Sith to be dead and that's final.

The Jedi in the movies also consider the Sith to be extinct until they absolutely, positively can't deny it. They seem to be very set in their thinking about the state of the Force and the light and dark sides in the movies, which was one of their weaknesses. Even though they knew that there were Sith causing trouble again, the Jedi Council still didn't suspect Dooku, who had left the Order.

You would think that Dooku would be Suspect #1, but nnnnoooooooooooo. 'OUR people don't go bad.' I think that the Council had it set in their minds that the Sith were rogues from the start and could not possibly have been Jedi.

Aaaaaah, the Dooku banner is gone. It was nice.

 

I disagree about Palpy. But, that's a topic for another thread.

I don't think Yoda could have redeemed Vadey. As seen in the "train yourself to let go, you must" scene, he just doesn't have the rapport with him. But Dooku, however ... different story. If anyone redeemed the Dook in an AU, it would have to be Yoda.

Well, OK ... maybe Jo.

OT: Friends of Kynstar are invited to contribute to this thread.

 

I just noticed all the Dooku authors who won awards in Before this year.

CONGRATULATIONS PERSEPHONE, SABARTE, AND CHARMISJESS!!!

*bestows a Golden Dooku to each*



(OT: Check out the Kynstar Get Well Fic, it's actually starting to do something. *faints*)