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The Entire Galaxy

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Veng_Commando, Feb 3, 2002.

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  1. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    I already helped you out genghis by getting ann lewis's quote no need for you to post it out again.

    But I repeat:

    "But you find that gamer 1, and TOS article are going for the homeworld in the Unknown regions in a wisp of the galaxy clause.

    In the gamer article in the sanba written inuniverse parts, it says scientists have figured out they can't come from extragalactic positions because of the distance involved(time issues), as well they use hyperdrive technology like most of the gffa races.

    It says that shysa's group went back to nagi with a group of resistance fighters to help defend the planet. If they do live in another galaxy, then shysa would die before he even got there.

    In the game information section, the part not written by sanba institute but by the Omnicient Narrator(whills or otherwise) which goes into details that the main article didn't know about, says that Nagi is in one of the wisps at the edge of the galaxy. TOS article was written by an omnicient one as well.

    So who do we agree with, omnicient(=all knowing), the nagai's word, or the word of the NR scientists research?

    Interesting how NR Scientists agreeing with the omnicient(whills or otherwise), hmm?"
     
  2. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Now you guys are getting technical, which suvisid to say, is not my thing.
     
  3. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Chissdude,
    Yes - the real Ann Lewis. Author of The Essential Guide to Alien Species.

    Val,
    You left out the link as well as the question/context her response was made. You asked me to provide it, and that was the reason I did so. If in the future you don't want me to do so, then don't ask. Don't worry, I'm not lying about knowing what Ann Lewis on the matter. [face_plain]

    The entire article is Sanbra's Guide - including the in-universe portions as well as the out-of-universe portions. The out-of-universe portions are meant to reflect in game terms the in-universe portions.

    As Ann Lewis has said, "it's all good." Why then is there such the big push to change that official view of the Nagai/Tofs?!?
     
  4. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    It'll be a sad day for genghis if LFL ever puts the nagi and tof on the gffa maps, [face_plain].

    "The out-of-universe portions"

    Who said they are out of universe portions? Everything in star wars are written by Omnicient Observers(whills of otherwise.), or by lowly mortals that live and die in the galaxy.
     
  5. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    This is stupid!! Cant we just be friends guys!
     
  6. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    One has really to wonder, what all those "shortlived" extragalactic invaders know about real warfare and its logistics.
     
  7. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val...
    "It'll be a sad day for genghis if LFL ever puts the nagi and tof on the gffa maps,"

    :D Not necessarily. As I said before, there are indeed loopholes available for ret-conning which still can make everything work. Granted it would be a clear modification over what was the original extragalactic nature of these guys, but one can shoe-horn them both in as extragalactic and within the GFFA.

    I tell you what, Val. We of course know there will be one more time the Tofs and Nagai will be revisited by LFL. Dark Horse COmics is reprinting the original Marvel series. If you think Marvel was wrong and LFL thinks they're in the galaxy, then certainly we will see some editing done to the Marvel poritons which call out their extragalactic nature.

    Personally, though I have my money on Marvel - they knew what they were talking about. I think when people buy the reprints, they will read how Bey left the galaxy. In addition, I will state for the record here that I also don't think the UR will be mentioned at all. :D Are you with me?

    "Everything in star wars are written by Omnicient Observers(whills of otherwise.), or by lowly mortals that live and die in the galaxy."

    Nope, the whole article was written by someone in our world. [face_plain] It was also written with the "flavor" of Sanbra's Guide, an in-universe Guide which wanted to suggest that merely the NR thought the Nagai were extragalactic. Therefore, supporting material within the article would by nature support that view.

    chissdude10...
    "This is stupid!! Cant we just be friends guys!"

    You bet! :)

    FTeik...
    "One has really to wonder, what all those "shortlived" extragalactic invaders know about real warfare and its logistics."

    Well, one has to wonder when Thrawn's campaign only lasts six months and he's generally labelled the best genius the Empire has to offer, the one month campaign which swept across the entire galaxy by the Nagai was actually pretty successful. It accomplished more in a shorter time.

    It should be noted that the Nagai didn't lose and weren't losing, they simply quit the invasion campaign, switched sides and went on to repel the Tofs. It seems that whereas the Nagai ran a fairly successful campaign (granted, they had help from a Sith Lord), the Tofs generally bungled it. It seems they were overwhelmed by the whole extragalactic logistics. But, we should also note the Nagai had been watching the galaxy for years, waiting for the right time to strike. Time was on their side, including building up their armada, etc. They had time to prepare a well-run extragalactic invasion. The Tofs, however, seemed to run a pretty half-arsed invasion, made all the more problematic when the Nagai sided with the Alliance against them.
     
  8. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    I'm gonna have to go with everyone else here, Genghis. All the newer information points to the system existing *in* the galaxy. As for Bey's statement, it's been pretty well documented that there exists an area of the GFFA that, while sufficiently away form the galaxy proper to be called extragalactic, is still within the hyperspace disturbance that apparently envelops the galaxy. The rebel fleet apparently went there at the end of TESB, according to TOTBH, and there's a prison world located in that area as well, in the Marvel comics, I believe, so it wouldn't be surprising if the Nagi system is located there.

    TC
     
  9. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Dave Land said there will be no editing to done to the marvel stories to keep them like the originals. So the fans know what they were like. So all things will remain including, Chewbacca being 100 years old, spine mines of kessel, jabba said to be from dantooine, etc, etc, and other typographical and written errors.

    "Nope, the whole article was written by someone in our world. It was also written with the "flavor" of Sanbra's Guide, an in-universe Guide which wanted to suggest that merely the NR thought the Nagai were extragalactic. Therefore, supporting material within the article would by nature support that view."

    All sources are written by terrans, duh. But there things which are written in a omnicient narrative view(whills or otherwise), and a gffa historian view. Those are the two styles.
     
  10. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    TC...
    "All the newer information points to the system existing *in* the galaxy."

    Nope - not all the sources. In fact, the latest source has all of the prior sources working. We can assume that's LFL's latest word on the matter. And I, for one aren't going to argue with them. :)

    "[/i]As for Bey's statement, it's been pretty well documented that there exists an area of the GFFA that, while sufficiently away form the galaxy proper to be called extragalactic, is still within the hyperspace disturbance that apparently envelops the galaxy.[/i]"

    True. However, we have no information on whether or not this is where Bey was. When he said he went beyond the galaxy, we can accept he went beyond the galaxy - there's nothing to suggest he was ignorant or lying about where he was.

    Val...
    "Dave Land said there will be no editing to done to the marvel stories to keep them like the originals..."

    :) I know. So, we can assume that LFL wishes the originals to stand as-is, which means the official "latest word" as of the end of this year or beginning of next year automatically holds that the Nagai & Tofs are extragalactic.

    Granted things may change until they're actually released, but my money is on Marvel and the trend back to the originals LFL has made with Ann Lewis' EGtAS. I think Ann makes a pretty tough argument to beat, and Dark Horse Comics is going to make an impossible argument to beat - the same one which Marvel made almost a decade ago. :)
     
  11. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Note that crimson forever story that the asteroid world on the edge of the galaxy had seperated from the galaxy proper, and moving away, along with a huge nebula. It was once an arm of the galaxy. Well, it's likely that tof or the nagai could exist inside of another lost arm like it, which would be extra galactic, and a sort of there own galaxy. since the sections of gamer 1 said they reside in one of the arms of the galaxy, this would count, but still be extragalactic. Something about arms like that there is ability to get past the galactic barrier, or the barrier stretches out with the arm.

    Dan Wallace has mentioned that all retconning to marvel will be done outside the comics. He also doesn't believe that the original stories should be edited in the rereleases. But if a fix must be applied it will be done in guides or articles.
     
  12. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Paraphrasing the immortal words of Wedge 88...
    "Dude, why? Why does it matter so much that you alter Marvel's continuity? Everyone who lived in the GFFA during the Alliance of Free Planets knows them by their extragalactic nature. We the readers know them by that title. Why would Marvel, or any other writter that makes use of him in any way, want the Tofs and Nagai to appear to be extragalactic to everyone but you, and people who are as clever as you, according to your theory?"

    No ret-con was required. The TOS essay in preperation for the NJO extragalactic Vong has been the only "new" source to try to ret-con anything. Since that time, everything else from Gamer to the very latest Essential Guide to Alien Species has ret-conned the TOS ret-con back to the original.

    No ret-cons are required in Dark Horse's reprints, because things aleady are back to where Marvel originated them.

    Besides, we are now (well actually always have been) faced with the concept of a New Unexplored Region, anyway. One much larger and perhaps much, much more dangerous than the one we know and love.

    This would be the Unexplored Regions of the Universe. Now that it seems the Tofs have gone back to their home galaxy and are still being seen in the GFFA, there may be contact between the two. Most likely because the Nagai are on favorable terms with the NR, they would share information about their home galaxy. As more information becomes known about the Vong, including star charts, etc., their region of the universe will become "known."

    So, now the entire GFFA is faced with the prospect that they may be knowledgeable of a very small pocket of their universe. We've already seen resistance to such a revelation by NR analysts - who have been resistant to recognizing the nature of the Nagai/Tofs.

    But, hopefully the Vong menace will finally shake them up and wake them up to the fact that there's not only a whole big region of space within their galaxy that's "unexplored," there's a whole big region of the universe that's "unexplored."

    How many extragalactic invasions will it take before the Scout services, for example, begin scout missions out beyond the galaxy. They can rely on trying to recreate Bey's exploits. They can rely on Nagai and Tof tech. All three of which have been able to traverse the galactic barrier. Once the Vong are defeated, they can rely on Vong tech.

    It seems the whole GFFA just got much smaller, and the UR doesn't seem so menacing at all - compared to what's out there.
     
  13. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "Sources are vague and contradictory as to whether the Nagai and Tofs are from a different galaxy or the UR. The original source (Marvel) says different galaxy, but newer sources have modified that somewhat to better fit with the Vong, I imagine...

    Upshot is, there's no official answer.
    -Dan Wallace(2/4/02)"
     
  14. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val...

    "...better fit with the Vong..."

    ?[face_plain] So does that mean Dan thinks the Vong are lying about their extragalactic nature as well and that they all should've died while making the trip?!? I hardly think so. I'd say that the NR's mistake in thinking they're not extragalactic would make things a worse fit with the Vong.

    But, basically, Dan is pretty much in spiritual agreement with Ann and myself. And besides, when it comes to the latest official word, the Essential Guide to Alien Races - Ann would tend to hold more weight on her book than Dan would.

    Namely - It's all good.

    I really don't understand why you've attacked continuity so forcefully in this matter, usually you're pretty good defenders of continuity, Val & MT. I mean, this is one that's pretty clear now since TOS has been pretty much wiped away. ?[face_plain]
     
  15. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "So does that mean Dan thinks the Vong are lying about their extragalactic nature as well and that they all should've died while making the trip?!? I hardly think so. I'd say that the NR's mistake in thinking they're not extragalactic would make things a worse fit with the Vong."

    Aren't the vong supposed to be multi generational travelers? I.E. reproduced and died on there journey from their galaxy across to the gffa galaxy?

    "I really don't understand why you've attacked continuity so forcefully in this matter, usually you're pretty good defenders of continuity, Val & MT. I mean, this is one that's pretty clear now since TOS has been pretty much wiped away."

    Please genghis spare the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque remarks. I've hardly attacked anything.
     
  16. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    So, you're suggesting that the "Hyperspace Barrier" is actually merely just "aging" or "old age?"

    Interesting, but somehow I don't think so.

    Val...
    "Please genghis spare the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque remarks. I've hardly attacked anything."

    I think you misunderstood, Val. Why do you so forcefully wish to see existing continuity overwritten so much? ?[face_plain] I mean, it's not like Marvel's trying to lie to us...
    Marvel: "Hey, let's tell everyone they're extragalactic, but only we really know they're from the UR"

    I think it's very clear as to their origins. When they say they're from outside the galaxy, we can pretty much take that to mean they're from outside the galaxy.

    When they say NR analysts believe that they lied about their origins, we can take that to mean the NR analysts believe that they lied about their origins.

    It's all good, so why fight so hard against it? ?[face_plain]
     
  17. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "So, you're suggesting that the "Hyperspace Barrier" is actually merely just "aging" or "old age?"

    Interesting, but somehow I don't think so."

    What in the name of force are you talking about. I haven't said anything about hyperspace barrier. Just that IIRC vong are multi-generational space travelers, that have reproduced, lived and died along there journey between galaxies. That has nothing to do with the barrier.

    About the barrier, I doubt it's changed much since the time of the 25,000(or before) bby, to modern times.
     
  18. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    I was talking about the barrier when I suggested the Vong should've died while making the trip (much the same way someone suggested earlier that Bey should've died while making his trip through the barrier.) Then you said well, the Vong did die - through old age.

    Old age could therefore, in effect, be considered a barrier to extragalactic travel. Hence the reason why no one thinks it can be done is that it takes too long to travel between galaxies.

    Metaphorically-speaking, that would be a "barrier" to such travel.

    But, I'm more inclined to go with the "disturbance" or "swirling maelstrom of death" which keeps people from generally making the trip.
     
  19. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    The idea of multi-generational travel is not a new idea to scifi by the way. People who decide that they are fine spending there entire lives on a ship crossing a great expanse of space, know that is requirement to get from one place to another.

    Either it be a slowship to start a colony in another star system within a galaxy or travel to another galaxy. Multi-generational has been stated as a plausible way to get enough people from point A to point B, to start their colonies.

    Multigenerational travel for those that make the commitment, and there is no turning back, is never a hinderance to making the decision.

    What really makes it stupid is how han acts like vong are the first extragalactic visitors he's ever seen. So much for him believing bey. Either hans's a real dumkopf, or bey was protecting his people. One or the other. Which ever is true. Both theories are possible that's why it's all good. Maybe as ann and wallace have said later "new" source freshly written by a new author will clarify which story is now intended to be the real story(reprints of marvel don't count as new, just reprinted old material).
     
  20. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val, it was actually you who reproduced Chissdude's rather flawed idea...
    "It says that shysa's group went back to nagi with a group of resistance fighters to help defend the planet. If they do live in another galaxy, then shysa would die before he even got there."

    Assuming you meant he would "die" the same way the Vong "died" in their trip, then he would die of old age. Assuming there's some monstrous ship-eating disturbance field, then he would die when his ship got whacked.

    However, we know Bey made it through with some luck and some engine failure.

    This is not unprecedented, since a group of Rebels, Imperials and Bounty Hunters actually managed to cross dimensions through the same combination. The ones who got sent off into Otherspace had hyperdrive failure and luck.

    So, it seems that people with GFFA tech can make it through the barrier into other galaxies from the GFFA. You just need to have luck on your side, something which Fenn Shysha seems to have. However, he most likely got Nagai help in crossing, since they've already been able to do it (or have found another way around it like the Vong).

    Val...
    "reprints of marvel don't count as new, just reprinted old material"

    Not true. We know that LFL has indeed changed/modified the original Marvel in the past when they've reprinted it. The fact that they are doing so without modifications (except color correction, etc.) speaks volumes about the original source. If it is LFL's intention to have the Nagai/Tofs something other than what they are, this is the chance. However, we know they are leaving them as is - unmolested, keeping their origins intact and unmolested.
     
  21. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "This is not unprecedented, since a group of Rebels, Imperials and Bounty Hunters actually managed to cross dimensions through the same combination. The ones who got sent off into Otherspace had hyperdrive failure and luck."

    There is a big difference in cross-dimensional travel, and travel within the same dimension. Hyperspace is not quite within the same dimension, and it's possible to be lost in hyperspace forever. So that analogy is a bit of a red herring.

    Well, actually like dan wallace has said, that they don't want to change the oriiginal text, but retconns will be made in later sources if later retcons are needed to fit in with the text of the modern EU. Retcons that explain why one person says one thing, but something else is "true". A change would count as a new difference. But no change is never fresh or new, just reprinted, or reused.

    But either way, Han is either el stupido for acting like he's never heard of extragalactic travel before, and thinking no can cross the barrier(or just not believing his friend), or bey was protecting his race. The official line is that both theories "Could" be true story, but no official confirmation as to which one they intend to be the real story(telling the truth, or making up the story to protect there real homeworld). So they are both good possibilities until LFL Officially says confirms which is true in a sourcebook.
     
  22. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Not at all. This is proof that hyperdrive failures = strangeness. They had mech failure and entered a whole new dimension different from either hyperspace or realspace that no one's ever seen or heard of in the GFFA.

    That's why neither Fenn or Bey would automatically be destroyed when making the trip through the barrier.

    With mech failure and the "will of the Force" - anything's possible, including traversing the great divide. One easy way is that Bey may have been thrown into Otherspace, passed the barrier while there and exited outside the galaxy. This could also be the method by which the Nagai and Tofs "pass through" the barrier as well.

    If it's a hyperspace disturbance, it can be completely circumvented by not travelling through hyperspace. :)
     
  23. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val...
    "But either way, Han is either el stupido for acting like he's never heard of extragalactic travel before..."

    Well, remember, it's not the first time Han (or any of them) have forgotten things. Han went through Crispin's entire HST without reflecting on his relationship to his child-hood idol and father-figure Bey. So ignoring him about this wouldn't be new.

    Perhaps they had some sort of falling out that Han's bitter about?
     
  24. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Time for Mr. Chissdude to rejoin this intergalactic debate.

    Offering a new solution if you will...

    I go along with the dude who wrote the Tech Commantaries. He says the UR may be a seperate galaxy(Like adromana to the Milky Way?) who are close. The UR may just be a smaller galaxy.
     
  25. Nom Anor

    Nom Anor TFN Books Staff star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2000
    Screw this - I'm sticking with the Yuuzhan Vong! Nagai and Tofs are out of my league.
     
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