The Entire Galaxy

Isn't it possible that the Tofs and Nagai come not truly from another galaxy, but from a smaller galactic offshoot of the GFFA, like the Magellanic Clouds...?

That would satisfy the fact that they're really from the GFFA, and that they're extragalactic, while also accounting for the fact that it doesn't take millennia to travel to their homeworlds from the NR.

 

Ok, I was wrong. Let me rephrase that. "All the newer sources are fairly ambiguous, with the exception of the Gamer article, which *specifically* states that the system exists within the GFFA. That's what I'm going with.

>True. However, we have no information on whether or not this is where Bey was. When he said he went beyond the galaxy, we can accept he went beyond the galaxy - there's nothing to suggest he was ignorant or lying about where he was.<

Um, he did go beyond the galaxy. Sort of. As his statement was not met with the kind of uncertainty and doubt we see in the NJO, I think we can safely assume that "beyond the galactic parameter" means, in the GFFA, that one goes beyond the galaxy proper, not actually out of the galaxy.

TC

 

Wow, that's it? I expected this to go on for another page, at least.

TC

 

I can. Go here and look at my map.

NOTE: it is an RP map, that is why Nagi is in the UR, a Kyana Confederacy, Cliffican Cluster, Nova Shipyards, RB Obsidian and To-phalion Base (Not where it's meant to be). Also the group of orange stars in Wild Space. And this is all based on what has happend in the RP, it is not consistent with the NJO. I would like as much ideas, input, criticism, corrections (Not about Nagi) as possible.

 

TC...
It's not "sort of beyond..." It's "beyond..."

"The day finally came when good luck and bad instruments forced me to go where none of us had ever been--beyond the galactic perimeter."

galactic - of or having to do with the galaxy
perimeter - the boundary or a line or strip bounding an area

One cannot be beyond the perimeter, yet still be within the boundry. That would be a contradictory statement.

In addition, Bey is also very specific, he went somewhere no one (of them) had ever been. Therefore, he did not go to some Crimson Forever "pocket galaxy," no ESB "pocket galaxy," or some prison-world "pocket" galaxy because "they" had been there before. He went somewhere outside the galaxy, and somewhere no one from inside had ever been before. So, while they may have went beyond the galaxy in ESB, this location was different from where Bey went.

As for Bey, one does not assume by default that every character is lying about everything. Comics do not have to mark or note which characters are telling the reader the truth. !?! Quite the opposite actually - they are telling the truth unless they are shown to lie.

Why does one think Marvel created this big conspiracy about the Tofs and Nagai when they really meant the Unexplored Regions all along. If the conspiracy to save their homeworld from outside discovery was to be a part of the plot, it would have been a part of the plot. They would have told us if they intended that. That's a requirement of dealing with the medium.

 

>Quite the opposite actually - they are telling the truth unless they >are shown to lie.

Fine then- he has been shown to be lying. He was apparently trying to protect the system. Or something. We *know,* according to Gamer, that the system is in the galaxy, the only question is why Bey led everyone to believe otherwise.

>Why does one think Marvel created this big conspiracy about the Tofs and Nagai when they really meant the Unexplored Regions all along. ... They would have told us if they intended that. That's a requirement of dealing with the medium.<

Of course we know that Marvel *intended* for it to be outside the galaxy. But as you know, the author's original intentions don't mean diddly-squat once LFL decides something different. Were it otherwise, we'd only have one Emperor's Hand, and Han and Leia would have had only one wedding- in GODV.

TC

 

TC...
"he has been shown to be lying. He was apparently trying to protect the system. Or something."

Nope, we *know* that only NR analysts believe Bey was lying, apparently to protect the system. That isn't the same thing as Bey lying to apparently protect the system. If we're creating things, we might as well just assume the NR could be lying about that to cover up why they didn't take extragalactics more seriously.

"Of course we know that Marvel *intended* for it to be outside the galaxy. But as you know, the author's original intentions don't mean diddly-squat once LFL decides something different."

However, this is all a moot point, because what LFL has decided is to make everything true. There Bey is true, the Nagai are from outside the galaxy. Gamer is true, because it's just NR who thinks he's lying. The latest on the matter is EGtA, backed up by continuity guru Dan Wallace and that is, "It's all good." Furthermore, we know LFL's faith in Marvel, because it's going to be reprinted as-is beginning in a few months. So, anything about the Nagi not being extragalactic has all been superceded already and will continue to be through 2003 at least.

 

>Nope, we *know* that only NR analysts believe Bey was lying, apparently to protect the system. That isn't the same thing as Bey lying to apparently protect the system. If we're creating things, we might as well just assume the NR could be lying about that to cover up why they didn't take extragalactics more seriously. <

If it were just the NRI's POV we had in Gamer, I'd agree with you. However, as has been pointed out, there was also a non-biased, out-of-universe POV, which states that the system exists in the GFFA.

>backed up by continuity guru Dan Wallace and that is, "It's all good."

That's an incredibly ambiguous statement that could be applied to *any* of the explanations thus far.

TC

 

The Behind the Magic galactic map shows the Outer Rim is literally the outer rim of the galaxy.

Since we already know, courtesy of Gamer #5's enclosed map, that the Unknown Regions are beyond the Outer Rim.

What does this tell us? Well, it tells us that the Unknown Regions are beyond the galactic perimeter.

Concerning the Unknown Regions, Dr Curtis Saxton, an astrophysicist (note: a qualified expert, therefore not a fallacious appeal to authority, for those of you who are interested in exposing egregious logical fallacies), wrote:

[... A] spiral galaxy doesn't end abruptly, and there is diffuse formless material and occasional stars, stellar remnants and globular star clusters scattered in a spherical halo of space surrounding the disk, even above the main galactic plane. Dark matter in the halo constitutes most of the galactic mass; although mysterious to our science, it should be innocuous old knowledge to a galactic civilisation. Few of the complacent people of the greater galaxy would bother to stray from their tens-of-millennia-old trade routes to visit these spaces beyond the disk, because the distances are so vast and the destinations so scarce. Chemical considerations make planets unlikely or uncommon in globular clusters, even though these associations of millions of stars must have high abundances of interesting power sources like exotic stellar corpses. In total the halo would still contain millions of interesting destinations but because they're spread across space much larger than the disk, it wouldn't be economical to establish trade routes so far out. This zone is probably what constitutes the Unknown Regions and Wild Space. These regions may have an unusually large concentration of naval and military power, (in the hands of secretive rogue species like the Nagai, Tofs, Ssi-Ruuk and Chiss) but very few inhabited systems compared to the galaxy at large. Indeed the conditions of these sparse interstellar badlands might actually encourage spacefaring locals towards aggression.

If this is how the Unknown Regions are defined billions of stars spread out over a vast space several times the diameter of the galactic disk, compared with hundreds of billions of stars in the conventional part of the galaxy. That's plenty of interesting places for stories, and it's remote enough to explain why it's rarely visited.

So, as you can clearly see, it is perfectly possible for Bey to have been telling the truth (he was beyond the galactic perimeter, and as far as he knew, no one had been there before) and for the Nagai homeworld to be in the Unknown Regions.

In other words, as Genghis12 is so fond of reminding us, "it's all good."

And in regard to the argument that Marvel intended for the Nagai and the Tof to be from another galaxy altogether....

Intention is generally irrelevant if it's been contradicted. As a courtesy, it's perfectly fine to take an author's word on his or her intention as being correct as long as the official line doesn't contradict it.

As an example: In Tyrant's Test, the so-called Camp Pa'al Squadron departs Koornacht, and heads for Byss. The intention was clearly to have them join the Imperial forces in the Deep Core at Byss.

Unfortunately, we've discovered since then that Byss was annihilated, and there were no Imperial forces in the Deep Core where Byss used to be.

Another example: I once sent Michael A. Stackpole a private message, asking him about Sate Pestage's death in Mandatory Retirement and his presence at Byss in Dark Empire Sourcebook.

Stackpole answered that the Pestage who was killed was the real one, and the one on Byss was a clone. At the time, it was perfectly fine to take that as being correct.

Unfortunately, we've since learned that the Pestage whom Krennel strangled was a clone, and the one on Byss was the original.

So, the Marvel crew intended for the Nagai to be from outside the galaxy.

But did they even have the concept of the Unknown Regions? Pro

 

A very reasonable theory, Thief. I had no idea that the Unknown Regions were technically outside the galaxy, (that's what you get for not subscribing to Gamer. ) However, I wouldn't go too far in excepting Dr. Saxton's portion. Although he is to be an official author, he tends to gloss over major issues, (stating that every Ewok on Endor is dead, despite realms of information to the contrary,) while making mountains over minor ones, (such as the Executer/Super Star Destroyer class.)

>Unfortunately, we've discovered since then that Byss was annihilated, and there were no Imperial forces in the Deep Core >where Byss used to be.

There were Imperial holdouts in the Deep Core as far ahead as the YJK, until the New Republic drove them out.

TC

 

I think Thief has pretty much summed up the facts here.

Case closed? For me it is.

 

Yep, case closed.

TC

 

Say, does Bey ever say that the Nagai and Tofs are from "another galaxy" ? Who knows what is in between galaxies in the SW universe ? Also, if the Nagai/Tofs were actually living in another dimension, and in that dimension they were outside the GFFA or in another galaxy, but where their dimension's time-space co-ordinates (or whatever co-ordinates the SW people use) meets that of the GFFA (i.e, if there was a direct portal in between the dimensions, where they would step out in the GFFA) it could be in the UR.

Thus, ALL theories could be correct.

 

... I tohught this thread died... Ah well

So that means the Tof-watever and the Nagia are in the GffA?

 

That's right. DaJames, I suggest you go back and read the entire thread. Most of what you bring up has already been dealt with.

TC

 

Ah, yes but not all in one post I thought that maybe it would clarify things a bit.

 

Oh, ok.

TC