Lit The Essential Atlas and Galactic Cartography: Official Discussion

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CeiranHarmony, Oct 14, 2005.

  1. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    The Essential Atlas Online Companion (starwars.com)
    -Online Appendix
    -Hyperspace Article: The History of Xim and the Tion Cluster.
    -Outer Rim Territories map w/ sectors.
    -Unstated Canon From Dan Wallace's blog.
    -Behind-the-Scenes Article
    -Author Chat Replay
    -Endnotes from Dan Wallace's StarWars.com blog

    Mapping Hutt Space



    (Original Post Follows)

    Seeing the new map within the Complete Locations book, I was happy about another new map with placements. But the schock came when I compared it to the other well known maps.

    Not only seem many planets misplaced, but also the whole galaxy seems to be bent and changed somehow. It fits with the previous locations book maps, but not with the NJO maps or Insider and Fact Files galmaps.

    And I do NOT mean the different perspective on the galaxy. that I already analysed. It has nothing to do with some major errors. Planets are close to planets they should be close to, but not at the right location or distance from them. instead of next to a world they are now above it or the unknown regions seem much smaller and other regions bigger than on the other maps.

    some examples, just to name a few:

    The locations maps are divided into quadrants. applying the same quadrant shematic to the fact files or njo galmaps (I used navcomps great one based on these for that comparison), the quadrants arn´t quadrants anymore. it insn´t symetric at all. The quadrant boarders near Thule and Quermia f.e. are on other maps closer together. also rishi and kamino seem to be now above geonosis and tatooine instead of at their side.
    again a note: it can´t be explained with a different perspective, already checked that.

    So... why so many differences? which map is now accurate? is the one in the essential chronology that is upcoming based on the factfiles map, that navcomp used for its design or another design? questions over questions.

    and how to solve and explain the differences now? hm.. dunno. What I want and need is a galaxy map, seen from above, with exact quadrants and coordinates. but based on the factfiles maps and others. just with another perspective.




  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    here an altered navcomp.com mapindicating the difficulties with the quadrants from the locations map, when transfered into this map. it is only a vague transfer to show the difficulties.

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Ceiran/galaxymapfinal1.jpg]

    Also it seems the quadrant lines follow most of the major trade routes. Hydia way, corellian run, corellian trade spine and perlemian trade route. so they arn´t quadrants at all it seems. though, used as such in the locations map. weird.
  3. modi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2004
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    [image=http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/2189/gmap4nc.jpg]
  4. Master_Keralys Sometime Technical Aide and Erstwhile Lit Mod

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    Oct 8, 2003
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    Am I the only one to whom it still seems absurd that a solid 1/3 + of the galaxy is completely unexplored according to the maps we have?

    Ceiran - could you post a scan of what you're referring to so we can see where the differences are?

    - Keralys
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    thx alot, great, where is this fanmade gem from? is there more like this?
  6. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    my scanner isn´t working, but I´ll photograph it for you digitally. hope the quality doesn´t suck then.

    here:

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Ceiran/IMGP0420.jpg]

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v679/Ceiran/IMGP0419.jpg]

    Hope it helps and the quality isn´t best, but should suffice.
  7. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    I actually don't mind this. I never liked the shunting of the UR to one side of the map, and would much rather have it round the fringes of the Galaxy (for everyone who brings up the Corporate Sector, I'll point out to you that it's basically the tail of a spiral arm, undeveloped at the time of granting)... potentially with rimward spacelanes serving as rare echelons of explored space...

    And from a plot-wise positon, the position of Bespin in Imperial space in T3 suggests that the Imperial presence stretches round behind the Core from Bilbringi...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    true, some things have to be explained better and could have been made better. nevertheless I like the maps we have. I just want for now to have no contradictions between the maps.
  9. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    CH: agreed; and thanks for the caps...

    I've actually seen a version of this map before, I think in AotC-related material - I was looking at it for Plo Koon's homeworld... I think it was at SWTC, but it's not on the Astrophysical Concerns page that I can see...

    If you look at the plan map in Behind the Magic, though, you'll see it doesn't add up: Dantooine and Ord Mantell, while spaced differently than in the VP-derived maps, stand approximately on the "quadrant line"...

    This remapping could, of course, reflect Curtis Saxton's influence (is he a consultant again?); the usefulness of his discussion can be seen by the shameless gakking of it in this post, but he doesn't seem to like the fact that sentient attitudes and the fictional physics of hyperspace have canonically limited political and economic expansion... :p ;) [face_mischief]

    - The Imperial Ewok
  10. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    yeah saxton is listed again as consultant.

    and I agree... fiction, fantasy and real world physics don´t belong together always.

    I don´t mind remapping and changing. but I think that wasn´t the case here. here we have just another view on the map, perspective. but the perspective was done either wrong, or it was really remapped and we see a completely different map in the upcoming essential chronology, which I hope not, because the one in the Ultimate Guide is still the old one! with the major planets listed as well in its former locations. and books released so close to each other shouldn´t contradict themselves.
  11. jawajames FF Pacific RSA President/Chapter Rep San Diego, CA

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    even if Saxton was not involved in the creation of new content for the CL, he would still be credited because of his role in whichever ITW book he worked on.
  12. jasonfry VIP

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    Nov 11, 2003
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    The Locations maps have always had their own flavor. I think all of us geography geeks will like the New Essential Chronology map. At least I hope we all will.
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    my personal solution to the quadrant problem is right now:

    if looking at modis great map, and draw the quadrant boarders into it based on some planets in the locations map, it still isn´t quadrant like as it should be.

    But if we make the unknown regions smaller, so that the hydian way is pointing north, and what is left of it is still left of it. and the perlemian then is nearly 90° to the hydian way, then half the map seems ok again. the lower half we just have to make the UR smaller again, putting endor farther out, so that the quadrant boarder there is 90° to the corellian run.

    that way with a much smaller unknown region, and a bigger "Slice" as the region between hydian and perlemian was called (see early WEG map in guidebook), all makes more sense. that way we keep the map as it is, just pull and push a little here and there. we then have fitting quadrants, smaller unknown regions /1/5 of the galaxy) and a bigger "Slice" wich shall be the most settled and prominent area during early galaxtic exploration according to WEG sourcebooks.

    comments on this idea? yeah would change all galmaps quite a bit, but solves many troubles. Just errors like locatng a planet on one map while he is in a different place on another would be left. as I mentioned above in my first post.
  14. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    but it seems easier to just ignore the problems, enjoy starwars and think of the quadrant lines as not accurate. that way the maps stay as they are.

    and yub, I WILL love the Essential Guide map.. I am just impatient to get it hehe^^
  15. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

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    Nov 12, 2003
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    Doesn't the NEC come out on the 22nd or so?
  16. RogueWompRat Jedi Youngling

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    Feb 15, 2003
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    Or it could be that the ITW map is accurate and the NJO maps are rough interpretations, what with their "treasure map" appearance.
  17. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    might be, but most maps are based of the NJO maps, see insider, fact files, clone wars and sw galaxies maps! all of them.

    and I think, most agree on the njo map form. so the anomaly is the loactions map.
  18. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    RWR: the problem is that the NJO maps agree broadly with the BtM map... the new map (which, I stress, isn't 'really' new) is divergent...

    It also has two Kashyyyks... [face_laugh]

    We can fiddle with problems with the new map by assuming that it doesn't use the same 'centre' as the BtM one, by assuming that the VP one is like the London Underground map, expanding and contracting areas for clarity, and by playing with the fact that not all planets are at the same height - making the Remnant/Alliance border run at an angle closer to the eliptic than 'vertical' would go some way to salvaging the implied distance that's been opened up between places like Dantooine and Muunilist...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  19. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    very interesting idea that goes along with my pull and push solution above^^ I like it. but still troubles remain like certain locations.

    and 2 kashyyyks? nice catch, that even I missed! lol now that is a major error! or is the second kashyyyk that with no groundliving wookiees? lol :p
  20. TIEDefenderPilot Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 3
    Could anyone fill me in on these two planets, on the map?

    Sinsang, Shusugaunt?
  21. President_Sharky Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 18, 2004
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    I've always liked the Inside the Worlds maps better than the NJO treasure maps. The idea that the Unknown Regions take up 1/3 of the galaxy is stupid. Even the NJO (Force Heretic) itself states that the UR only take up 15% of the galaxy, and are made up of only 100,000 stars. Such a small portion of the galaxy would not be a chunck out of the main disk, but mostly made up of globular star clusters like the Ssi-Ruuk SC or the region where Survivor's Quest took place.

    Seriously, in AOTC, Kamino is beyond the Outer Rim, meaning outside the main galaxy. If they already have minor sattelite galaxies like the Rishi Maze partially explored, then the main disk should definitely be fully charted.

    And McEwok, the ITW series of books have been publishing maps like this since Episode I came out, before Saxton became an author, so you can kiss your conspiracy theory goodbye.
  22. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Sharky: I could be wrong, but isn't that supposed figure on the UR an extrapolation from the area of space the Chiss records cover, or some such?

    And is the Rishi Maze canonically a satellite galaxy, or is that a fan fix? On the JC map, it looks like it's a good way in from the actual edge of the Galaxy... and clearly, if it's beyond the Rim, it's outside Republic space...

    Just because the Jedi know something, doesn't mean they've told anyone else... there's at least one Talz Jedi, and there's a Chiss on the Jedi Council in one of the comics set just before Ep.III...

    What you call a "conspiracy theory" was just a passing thought as to the rationale for what seems to be a remapping... I'm pretty sure the previous version lacked the Ep.III worlds - so it may not have dragged anywhere so far out of line as Muunilist is on that version...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  23. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    something else from the locations map that is wrong:

    Thule, Aargau and Ansion are misplaced it seems. then the kashyyyk sisters of course.



    another theory:

    can the differences between the maps be explained by the galactic drift? I doubt it. though navicomps need constand maths to plot safe routes. and somewhere it was stated it is because of the galactic drift. (I think old books like Han Solo Trilogy or something, Lando books). galactic drift seems to be slow, so shouldn´t be a major problem. trade routes exist for thousands of years, some are shifted and others closed down, as cartographing fans know from other discussions. though a galaxy can´t drift that much that everything is misplaced.


    so.. no solution yet besides some nice ideas which leave still troubles.


    maybe all maps and indiscrepancies we have can be explained in universe: many millenia or trillions of years after the STAR WARS events, archeologists and Indiana Jones in Space finds out about the past, and they reconstruct maps from back then, taking several sources into account. but they can´t get the truth, just close to it. so different maps are made, and the scientists fight over the truth. though it is something in the middle between the map versions. like archeologists try to place ancient cities here and there on the worldmap, or locate atlantis in rl. though it helps.. it isn´t very satisfactory.
  24. President_Sharky Jedi Master

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    Jan 18, 2004
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    I say we wait for the New Essential Chronology map before trying to reconcile anything.
  25. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

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    Jul 19, 2003
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    Sinsang, Shusugaunt

    Sinsang and Shusugaunt are planets of Raioballo Sector, which also inc. Dantooine and Gravelex Med. Gravlex Med is the Anx homeworld, and Shusugaunt and Sinsang were first mentioned in the Gamer article on the Anx. Shusugaunt is homeworld of the Shusugaunt species, whom once conquered the Anx, and the Anx have lots of specist jokes disparaging the short, squat Shusugaunt. Sinsang is industrial. Horox Ryyder tried to represent all of the planets in Raioballo Sector fairly, despite the historic ill will between his people (Anx) and Shusugaunt, and the primitive nature of the Dantari of Dantooine. We don't know what species lived on Sinsang.