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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Books The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

Discussion in 'Literature' started by whateveritis12, May 17, 2010.

  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Oho? I'll have to take a look, thanks.
     
  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Slight necro bump but the Endor page confused me; 33 ISDs at the battle with fifteen lost. Then, three go to the Deep Core with Harrsk, and, then, two go back to the Elrood.

    That leaves thirteen.

    Not twelve.

    I don't mind as the Redoubtable can't be in the final twelve that Thrawn commands five years later either way, but I wanted to confirm that I'm not misreading the page.


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  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    One could have been damaged so severely that, after the retreat, it ended up being scuttled, I suppose.
     
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  4. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I vaguely remember discussing this with Jacen, and deciding that we maybe needed an "out".

    Did Dorja's Relentless leave the fleet before Prittick took command? Was Implacable or Avarice or some other ISD identified in canon as an Endor veteran that had struck off randomly in an independent direction early on? Would someone want to use a ship in that situation later on in canon?

    Redoutable provides a useful answer, and can easily explain the discrepancy (I'd like to say "we thought of that one", but maybe we didn't, or maybe that ship went with Harrsk). But if there are other ships that the idea "fits", then we'd be able to fit them into the text...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  5. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    I just saw this response! I like how you left it open. It was difficult with how many ships are Endor vets.

    Implacable was not at Endor, but I list the survivors as...

    Chimaera, Deaths Head, Judicator, Tyrant, Inexorable, Stormhawk, Nemesis, Relentless, Stalker, Thunderflare, Avenger, Bellicose, and Peremptory as confirmed members of the original Death Squadron that survived or the members we see under Thrawn as part of his twelve.

    That is thirteen named of the seventeen that retreat to Annaj. Survivors that would need to fall within the remaining four are the Retaliator, Steadfast and Whirlwind.

    The issue with this is that there are only twelve end up under Thrawn.

    Stalker and Thunderflare head back to the Elrood, but then we have the issue that among the survivors there are three that need to head back with Harrsk.

    With the confirmed names, there are eleven that have to be part of Thrawn's Death Squadron. While Whirlwind is confirmed to be with Harrsk, we see both of the other two in loyalist hands - but post-Tsoss for the Retaliator. So it is arguable that the Retaliator joins Harrsk for a time, and I'd lazily suggest the Firestorm as the name of the last ship.

    Steadfast can simply survive Makati's death, and end up under Carnor Jax. The Virulence and Redoubtable retreat separately.

    If you want to go all One Canon on it, the Subjugator is confirmed to survive Endor, as is the Vigilance. You just have to assume Makati and Sloane retreated separately, which actually makes more sense as otherwise either of them would have led the discussion at Annaj - not Prittick...


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  6. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    Well, the whole point was that the list was designed to be adaptable, so I'm not sure how much I want to speculate, even though it's an essentially absurd exercise at this point. :p

    But the way to start is to look at the canon as it stands: taking it methodically, we have nine named ships with Pellaeon (Chimaera, Deaths Head, Judicator, Inexorable, Stormhawk, Nemesis, Relentless, Bellicose, and Peremptory), plus three unnamed, two named ships returning to Elrood (Thunderflare and Stalker) and three with Harrsk (Whirlwind and two unnamed), and one named ship which drops off the list; that leaves six unnamed ship among the "escapees"...

    Then we have the named Endor veterans which show up later in Imperial hands - Redoubtable seized under repair by the Yevetha, Virulence loyal to Isard, Tyrant captured at a fueling base by the NR, Avenger, as Sedriss' flagship, Steadfast (if it was actually at Endor), and Retaliator, showing up much later at Adumar.

    From one POV, you could say that Virulence rounds out the list as it's not "lost" but equally does not appear to make the rendezvous - twelve plus two plus three plus one plus fifteen "lost"...

    On the other hand, we also have those fifteen "lost" ISDs to play with, and we can name, at most, ten of them: two are confirmed destroyed (Vehement and Devastator) one is captured essentially intact by the Rebels (Emancipator, ex-Accuser - one of my favourite little WEG bits is the story of how the NR acquired Emancipator - Han, borrowing Veers' uniform from the Endor bunker, took the Tyderium up, walked his way onto the bridge, and ordered "abandon ship"), one damaged but salvaged by the Rebels (Liberator, ex-Adjudicator), and at least two more captured as intact hulls but apparently not refitted (Eleemosynary and Pulsar); according to WEG, the Visage (CCG), and Denunciator, Imputator and Indictor (XWA) add four mere names to the list. That leaves, it seems, five unnamed "lost" ships without the slightest biography...

    Now, there's a lot to play with there - some ships listed as "lost" could have been subsequently salvaged and repaired (an "out" which could easily fit Tyrant and Redoubtable for starters, and is theoretically applicable to the majority of named ships), or recaptured by elements of their own crews after the battle, or subsequently recaptured from the NR - perhaps in attacks like the one on Hast which so severely delayed the refit of Liberator and Emancipator (though I'm also thinking here of the recapture of Algésiras, Santa Ana, and Neptuno at Trafalgar)...

    My own inclination, talking in terms of pure fanboy speculation, would be to leave Steadfast out of the mix unless absolutely necessary - neither Makati's rank nor its long-running role as legitimist flagship is compatible with attaching it to the main fleet as it continued under Pellaeon; I'd drop Tyrant and Redoubtable into the list of "lost" ships if at all possible, assign Avenger to Harrsk because of its later Deep Core position, and add Retaliator to Pellaeon's forces because of its later loyalist position and status as an Endor veteran that got away; Virulence I'd use headcanonwise to explain the inconsistency in numbers, but I'd keep a space for it in the dozen assigned to Pellaeon just for the sake of wiggle room in the hypothetical eventuality that anyone actually needed to fit an extra ISD into the old-canon Endor roster...

    And then of course if you want to try to connect this to the reboot, you have to find a place for Vigilance (just to be contrary and to keep everything in order, I'd have Sloane follow Harrsk's orders, and then refuse to follow him into warlordism, though that's no guarantee her legitimists are Pellaeon's ;) ), plus Subjugator and Annihilator...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  7. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    McEwok? Good God, how are you old friend?!?

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

    Registered:
    May 9, 2000
    I'm Ewok-shaped and over-analyse things - but doesn't what I just said tell you that already? ;)

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  9. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    ...it's the only way to be, McEwok! ;)