Lit The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

Discussion in 'Literature' started by whateveritis12, May 17, 2010.

  1. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    May 31, 2005
    star 4
    Small request: can "Rookie One" from the Rebel Assault games finally recieve a real name? [face_laugh]
  2. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    I also hope to see something related to Atha Prime. The Dark Worlds would be a nice tie-in to the Atlas, and those Clone Warrior armors look so cool.:cool:

    I'd prefer just an illustration, to be honest. We have at least five different designs (Executor, Eclipse, Sovereign, the Vengeance, the Sarlacc Project) to look to for description of the Star Dreadnought ship type. Much rather learn about the difference between Star Dreadnoughts and the other Super-types.

    We know Rebel personnel grouped different SSD designs together, going from Star Cruisers up to "ultimate" Star Dreadnoughts like the Executor (ITW:eek:T, SW:CL).
    We know the Republic used Star Battlecruisers in combat (ROTS:ICS), some continued in limited service in the Empire (the Praetor-class, per TCSWE), new lines were built (per Bounty Hunter Wars, where Kuat was building new destroyer and battlecruiser lines).

    What we don't have is a clear separation of the types. It all started with the Technical Commentaries fansite hosted on this site, with ships 2-3 times longer than the Star Destroyers referred to as Star Cruisers, and larger vessels either referred to as Star Battlecruisers or Star Battleships and Dreadnoughts. (Not too fond of the Star Battleship idea myself, but since the CIS can have battleships and dreadnaughts in the same navy, that does set a precedent).

    There's a 100 to 1 mass ratio for the Executor and the Imperial (ITW:eek:T). The former has over 40 times the amount of weapons-systems to the latter. How do the Star Battlecruisers and Star Cruisers stand out from them? Do Star Battlecruisers have increased speeds/engine efficiency to the Star Dreadnoughts? Are Star Cruisers in this context simply heavy Star Destroyers? I'd like to get some light shed on this and maybe some comparison to similar ships in other navies (the Subjugator, Bulwark, Scythe, Mediator classes etc.)

    Then there's also the production and deployment of SSDs. In Dark Empire Sourcebook, the "average Moff and Sector Commander" is said to have had one or more SSDs and/or other heavy naval weapons-systems throughout the Empire's history.
    Did the ISB for instance only show the standard ship types to be distributed from a centralized source? Were the Executors and Imperials and the ISB support ships the main assets to be distributed to all regions, while everything else would be up to the individual governors and Moffs to procure? It would explain why Jerec could just order his own personal SSD with a non-Executor design from KDY, with no-one batting an eye.

    The majority of SSDs in service would then be highly individual in nature, with either limited production runs or one-offs like the Vengeance. It would tie-in with the info from ITW:eek:T that the Executor and Imperial uses a standard tower design that's highly modular and used on "many warship classes built by KDY". Most of those would be limited runs of ships lighter than the Executor, built to more individual specifications.

    EDIT: Oh, and maybe have a reference to that funky ion cannon the Malevolence had, being used by Imperial designs? It seemed very effective.
  3. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    I don't know; I consider the Mandator to be potentially more important than most of the other Star Dreadnoughts. The Eclipse barely did anything except get stolen or destroyed while the Sovereign, Vengeance , and the Sarlacc Project were do-nothing ships as far as the bigger picture is concerned. However, not only was the Mandator a mass-produced ship that has yet to be adequetely described by any source, but spending a little bit of time on it can help tell the tale of what design philosophies ultimately led to the Executor's design. ;)
  4. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    That's true. From what we have, the Mandator was to the Venator what the Executor was to the Imperial, and there seems to be some vague references to the ships in context of the CW, but nothing concrete as of yet. The power ratio from ROTS:ICS was about 167 Venator/Victorys to one Mandator II. DeAgnostini S&V #32 noted it was much more powerful than the Venator, but the Venator ships were far greater in numbers, which is logical for a design that's much smaller and cheaper to produce.

    I mentioned the CW episode R2 Come Home as providing a good tie-in for the class. With the possiblity of a large-scale blockade of the Hydian Way, a class that coordinates large fleet-manuvers like the Inexpugnable and Executor would fit right in. Maybe that could free up Republic Star Battlecruisers to go on long-range raids, like the Quaestor was apparantly trying to do when it crashed into Pammant?
  5. FTeik Force Ghost

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    Nov 7, 2000
    star 5
    The Mandator-class would be different from the Executor-class in a number of ways.

    We know the original Mandator-Is were part of Kuat-sectors defence-fleet. We also know, that before the clone wars really big warships lacked the kind of hyperdrive, that would have allowed them to be operational on a galaxy-wide level. At the same time military assets were still under control of civilians/politicians and not military governors like Grand Moff Ardus Kaine or Grand Moff Zsinj.

    It is therefore reasonable to conclude, that compared to the Executor the Mandators lacked the ability to carry large troop-contingents, that they didn?t have a huge mobile shipyard within their ventral side (not with KDYs main facilites close by) and that they lacked the city-sprawl of a mobile administration-centre and the connected communications-equipment to coordinate the forces as well as the political affairs of an entire sector.

    Fighter-carrying capabilities are an unknown. With their operational area limited to the Kuat-sector and their main purpose being of defensive nature there is no need for huge fighter-contingents carried aboard (those would come from dedicated carriers or orbital and planetary bases).

    The closest real-life analogy for a Mandator-class Star Dreadnought might very well be that of a costal battleship. Based on the maximum fuel-consumption of 8.6 million tons of fuel per second (ROTS:ICS) the vessel would be equal to ~ 53 ISDs and at least be half the size of Executor. A third is more likely, because the Mandator doesn?t waste space for the additional stuff mentioned above. More of the ships volume might be dedicated towards the storage of fuel than with the Executor, which would allow the Mandator to run longer at maximum power.

    In line with that thought I picture the class to be more heavily armored, if compared with the Executor, no large hangar-bay, but several smaller hangars in the ventral side and I wouldn?t even exclude the possibility of a large axial super-heavy laser-cannon (read: superlaser) on the dorsal side instead of a city-sprawl. If CIS-warships like Munificents and Recusants have those, why not something like the Mandator?

    The Mandator-IIs wouldn?t be much different from that (otherwise it would be a whole new class), but compared to their older brothers they would have hyperdrives, that enable them to cross the entire galaxy. Additional space needed for a different hyperdrive might be gotten by sacrificing some of the fuel-silos, but aside from that little else would change. They probably also appeared only late in the war and then most likely in the role of protectors of the GRs most important assets.

    Considering their supposed lack of fighters and ground-troops one has to wonder, if/why the empire didn?t commission an intermediate Star Dreadnought-class between the Executors and the Mandators, which would eliminate the ?flaws? of the originally pre-clone-wars-design.
  6. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    I have a feeling we might see something like that in the live-action series, if/when it ever gets made.:p

    About the coastal defense analogy, I seem to recall the Cardan series of space stations being used for something similar, and their article on WOTC states their design was later used as inspiration for future SSD designs.

    The Cardans and Mandators really fit in well with the pre-CW design trends for heavy weapons-platforms, which according to AOTC:ICS, had been going for several centuries already. It's really the CW and the Galactic Empire that forces a change in design for something like the Sarlacc Project and the bigger SSDs. Bringing overwhelming firepower to any corner of the Empire and beyond rather than just be purely defensive.
  7. operative_lm Force Ghost

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    Jun 11, 2005
    That is his real name, what are you talking about? Speak no ill of the One family.
  8. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    May 31, 2005
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    Franky, I can see Mandy-IIs being used to wear down CIS planetary shields too. Acting as a siege platform seems to be a quite a reasonable role for it. On that note, I'd like to know more about the historical development of battlestations.

    While I'm still on the subject, I kinda hope that the official BoSS warship classifications used by the galactic powers does not bother with KDY buzzwords like "Star Cruiser" and "Star Dreadnought" and sticks with the tired-and-true corvette-frigate-cruiser-battleship system. Corvettes are unsuited to serve in flagship roles, frigates are a minimal standard for flagships but typically can't engage in offensive fleet actions alone, cruisers can act independently, and battleships can take on a cruiser flotilla by itself.

    In addition, ship classifications seem to be further subdivided in different classes like Class I and Class II (as per Darklighter); I'd like to know what all that entails. Especially so in regards to the Rand Ecliptic (for the love of the Force, give it a better name than Imperial II-class frigate), and I'd like acknowledgement that the Rand Ecliptic serves as a frieghter as per the pre-Darklighter material. How the Merchant Marine become so militarized along with the Academy could be a worthy thing to discuss in the Warfare guide.

    PS: When did Biggs actually jump ship? X-Wing and Darklighter suggest that he was flying for the Rebellion for quite a while before ANH. Plus I highly doubt that Biggs of all Academy graduates could mistake an ISD for a freighter in the cut Anchorhead scene, so he was likely misdirecting his friends quite a bit.

    You mean something like Admiral Giel's battleship?
  9. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    Actually, the reason some of us liked the original SSD diversifying in the first place, was to highlight different capabilities and roles rather than relying on all to be Executors (which is why the simplification of "battleship takes on cruiser flotillas" is too simple).

    The material from Marvel through Dark Empire and Dark Forces up to the Bounty Hunter Wars and the Dorling Kindersley guides showcases a lot of different designs that are larger than ISDs, but that doesn't mean they all have the same specifications or duties and why it is necessary to have them separated into different ship types.

    The Imperial Star Dreadnoughts serve similar command roles to earlier CIS dreadnaughts and battleships, for instance, but have increased sizes that support more weapons-systems and carried craft that surpasses the capability of these warships several times over.

    Then there's other designs like Giel's flagship that do not appear to have the same kind of city-structures for organizing, no real docking facilities (compared to the Executor) etc. In turn, the Allegiance doesn't even come close to matching either ship's size, and doesn't have any hangar-facilities at all, if the illustration in DE is any indication.
    There's the SSD in orbit of Byss that has a large terrace around its tower, might be a compact version of the Executor's city structure/administration center etc.

    Do any of these ships fit any of the unseen categories (Star Cruiser, Star Battlecruiser)? We know the author of some of the DK books intended the references, based on his fansite, but I'd like to see something in writing. Showcasing their usage and their difference from the standard Executors, which have hogged a lot of attention throughout publishing. We know Exes are superior, but any concrete info beyond that would be great.:)

    LFL's shown they want to expand on other kinds of capital ships without solely relying on the ones we already know from the movies, so this seems to be a good time for expansion of the Republic/Imperial side of things, as well.

    For my money, lighter Star Dreadnoughts were used by the majority of Moffs that could afford such command ships, leaving "ultimate" designs to the Emperor and his strategic forces, Star Battlecruisers for longer, solitary expeditions into enemy territory and quick strikes, Malevolence-style. The Star Cruisers might be the elite workhorses of the Empire, performing a variety of roles, as depicted in Dark Empire and the audio drama (command and comm roles, escort duty for important flagships etc.). While the Star Destroyers are the primary expression of power that most of the galaxy ever sees, big enough to lead task forces and fast enough to chase more mundane prey.
  10. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    May 31, 2005
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    I never said that SSDs shouldn't be diversified, but rather that this diversification shouldn't be reflected in official classification systems used by the galactic powers. We know from TCW that the Republic always refer to their Venators as cruisers instead of "Star Destroyer". The term "Star Destroyer" itself is more like a Seal of Authenticity showing that a ship can reduce a world to molten slag, which implicitly means "Star Cruiser" and "Star Dreadnought" in the SSD sense are not really proper classes used by navies but rather brand names used by the big shipyards for whatever reasons.

    At any rate, this guide should be accessable to everyone including non-Fleet Junkies, and casual SW readers would get confused if the WEG and Saxtonian systems get mishmashed together (why isn't a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser more powerful than a Star Destroyer). For the purposes of this book, the WEG system is the best standard to apply to all military ships just as long as a battleship category is inserted to account for stuff like the Malevolence and the SSD-like capital ships out there.
  11. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    I don't doubt Jason will take all canonical sources into account - he and Dan certainly did for the Atlas.
    Some of the more 'dry' data - like ship types and classifications - might be more suited for an appendix, like the planet/system listings in the Atlas.
  12. Gomez_Addams Jedi Knight

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    Jul 29, 2009
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    Oh wow... guess this is what I get for not checking the boards every day.

    Sound like it'll be awesome.
  13. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    May 31, 2005
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    I just thought of a potential cool feature: a transcript of another HNN panel featuring Nasdra Magrody, Umak Leth, and Bunt Dantor. I liked that one podcast featuring them debating about the Malevolence, and I'd love to see more back-and-forth between the three about another CW issue or two. :)
  14. blackmyron Chosen One

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    They would be perfect for an in-universe discussion on technological advances in warfare.
  15. ChrisMathers Jedi Knight

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    Aug 23, 2008
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    I'm interested in learning about the changes in organizational structure between the GAR and the Stormtrooper Corps, changes to the ORBAT and such, and how they work with the Army, Navy, Intel, ISB and the numerous groups of Dark Siders. For that matter I'm interested to learn more about the Republic's regular army during the Clone Wars, and more about the clones that served as starship crew.
  16. Armchair_Admiral Force Ghost

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    /\

    For that matter, I'd like to know more about pre-CW organizations like the Judicial Forces, the Outland Regions Security Force (from Rogue Planet), and the Republican Guard (mentioned in The Stele Chronicles as having contributed allies for Senator Palpatine's..... noble cause). Hmm... perhaps the Republican Guard was merely the former (but still commonly-remembered) name of what was later renamed the Outland Regions Security Force. [face_thinking]
  17. ChrisMathers Jedi Knight

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    Aug 23, 2008
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    That reminds me, I know the Red Guards are basically the best-of-the-best of the Stormtrooper Corps, but I'm wondering where they drew their ranks from when we first saw them. All I seem to remember about their introduction was that Palpatine had a Senate Guard try to kill him, fail, and get killed himself, then used it as a pretext for getting his own guards, but we knew nothing about them.
  18. blackmyron Chosen One

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    I don't believe that we've been given an answer yet on that score - Palpatine faked an assassination attempt on himself early in his Chancellorship which led to their creation, but people didn't know where they came from - it's mentioned that they have a full face mask (instead of a helmet like the regular Guard) to hide their "identities" for security reasons.
  19. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    I disagree, there is more reason for the galactic government to use the terminology when it's already used by the main ship-building sector to describe them. The Kuat sector employed Star Battlecruisers and Star Dreadnoughts among its forces. It built Star Destroyers and assault ships for the Republic military in the build-up to the CW. The Republic utilized Star Battlecruisers as well in the war itself and most likely the SDrs.
    The official designation of the Executor within the Imperial military was Executor-class Star Dreadnought. The Empire also used at least one class of Star Battlecruiser despite it being obsolete and Kuat was making new lines in Bounty Hunter Wars.

    Whatever system the Republic and Empire used, must encompass these terms as well, given they define types of warships. That is what classifications are supposed to do, classify your assets. We already have dreadnaught and battleship in another navy, the CIS, so there's a precedent. Not to mention the mix of ships in the Rebel navy and the Corporate Sector.

    Not always. In TCW UK issue 6.6 short story Milk Run to Maarka!, it's called a Star Destroyer, actually.

    Star Destroyer is a designation of a specific ship type as well as a design trend. The former is made clear from ITW:eek:T which explicitly refers to Super Star Destroyers as a Rebel catch-all for warship classes larger than Star Destroyers, going from Star Cruisers to Star Dreadnoughts. Starships of the Galaxy SE says Star Destroyer began as a term for a type of warship that was dagger-shaped and could focus its firepower to destroy a star system. Which encompasses everything from the Imperial II-class frigate to the Executor and Eclipse. It is not a "Seal of Authenticity", but a design trend for a variety of warships.

    Emphasis by me.
    Really? Confused? And all the other potential systems or descriptions of various militaries this book undoubtably will have, will not be automatically confusing to "casual readers"? I doubt any "casual readers" would even know about the WEG system which hasn't been used in products for over 12 years by now. So for those "casual readers", you shouldn't worry about mishmashing two different things, because they're likely to never have heard about them before, anyway.;)

    Because it's not a Super Star Destroyer that's employed by the Empire? You might as well ask why a Kaloth style battlecruiser isn't the same as a Bulwark-class battlecruiser. Different governments, different companies, different navies.
    A Mon Calamari-made Rebel Star Cruiser has nothing to do with Imperial Super Star Destroyers, which is what ITW:eek:T is talking about.

    The WEG is both flawed and incomplete and has already been surpassed by the WOTC for years already. A system which included o
  20. Cronal Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    This! Plus how the Judicial Forces operated in war-time as well and what function if any they gave during the Clone Wars. I know the GAR and Republic Navy replaced them essentially but my understanding that the organization still provided a supporting role in the conflict since I think one of the pre-Episode III books has a member of the Judicial Department mentioned in them.

    I think Galaxy at War mentions that some of the Red Guard were drawn from the Senate Commandoes but I would really like to see the Red Guard/Royal Guard fleshed out in such a book. They seem somewhat neglected in the EU. Really, the biggest thing we ever seen from the Royal Guard is Crimson Empire. I would count Grodin Tierce in there but its said he was a clone with Thrawn's mental abilities in a manner of speaking so not sure if I would count him.
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
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    Some of the original, AOTC-era Red Guard were Thyrsus Sun Guards.
  22. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    This isn't about the Sun Guard, but I noticed in Message to Spacers 8, it mentions the fall of the Zann Consortium's fleet at some point before Daala's campaign against the NR. That's the first I've heard of the fall of the Consortium (or at least, it's military wing). I guess it might be relevant to the book, since they became a third party faction in the GCW.
  23. blackmyron Chosen One

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    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    They are referred to as both, actually - indicating "cruiser" as its ship type, and "Star Destroyer" as its design philosophy. The Saga SOTG already stated that a typical Star Destroyer was star cruiser, and the Databank already confirms this for both the Venators and the Imps. The "star dreadnaught" designation was added there, and from the CSWE it appears the "star battlecruiser" designation was depreciated.
    I wouldn't worry about it. I don't doubt that WEG/WOTC systems will form the backbone of any depiction of the official ship designation systems used by the OR/Empire/Alliance/NR.
  24. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

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    Jun 12, 2009
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    The CSWE used "battle cruiser" for every class that's been called "battlecruiser" or "Star Battlecruiser" in the past. I wouldn't treat it as conclusive. Then there's the Malevolence, which is classified "heavy cruiser", yet gets called "battleship" in every other source up until now.

    And as this is a thread for suggestions and references for Jason Fry's book, I'll still stand by the references I already mentioned, Kuat sector's line of Star Destroyer designs, some of which were classified "Star Destroyer" and some of which were classified "Star Battlecruiser" and "Star Dreadnought", for whatever reasons the KDY/Republic/Empire had.
  25. blackmyron Chosen One

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    Oct 29, 2005
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    Like I said, I'm sure Jason will take all canonical sources into consideration, and can draw his own conclusions.