Books The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

It's a good thing I'm mentioning the more obscure ones, then, isn't it?

Wonder if it's possible to tie in the old Republic battleships from the 90s Knights of the Old Republic comic stories. I always thought they looked like a mix between gothic cathedrals and SSDs.

 

I would recommend providing the actual quotes from the sources, then, to support your statements.
In fact, that would be a generally good idea overall for the people in the thread - certainly it would be helpful to pinpoint locations of quotes, as well as provide them to people that don't have access to the works themselves. I'll see what I can dig up in what I have.

 

Half gothic cathedral, half massive starship? Now that's a combination I've not heard in a long time, since well this.

 

Your link doesn't work.

 

I don't know if that sort of reasoning can work; there was a time afterall when Rendili StarDrive's Dreadnaught was bigger than any other capital ship developed in the last 1000 years or so. Even in the CW-era, ships longer than 8km were determined to be unreasonably-sized according to some of the leading weapons developers in the galaxy. If the Republic has no need for 5km+ ships, I wouldn't expect them to use official classes for those ships beyond battlecruiser/battleship.

Just because KDY calls a ship a "Star Dreadnought" doesn't mean it's a reliable indicator of what an official registry will classify a ship as. Many of the lesser shipyards have a bad habit of giving embellished names to "cruisers" that are more like frigates, and so forth. I have no problem with the Executor being officially classifyed as a battleship or something, since not too many of those large ships exist in the canon anyway. Personally, I think it would be quite weird if the Guide had a listing of all known ships yet have less than 5 or so of those show up as "Star Dreadnought"

Admiral Trench's "dreadnaught" (or was it a "carrier/destroyer" like the other Providences) is by no means comparable with a gargantuan KDY "Star Dreadnought" in any shape or form. Hence the need for a classification system that doesn't rely on what sorts of terms a shipyard decides to slap onto one of their products.

The WotC system (at least the one from Starships of the Galaxy) isn't honestly all that different either, except that it places battlecruiser above cruiser.

Anyway, I just think it's awkward to have a system that makes all ships use a Star prefix after a certain point is reached. Especially so in the cae of "Star Cruiser" and above, since the only reason the Star prefix even existed was to indicate that a Star Destroyer can destroy star systems. Any other use of the Star prefix is simply redundant for a galaxy-wide classification system, or something that casual fans can grasp for that matter.

~~~~~~~~~~~

While I'm still here, I would like to know about how technological developments led to a long period of galactic history where capital ships remained quite small until Rendili StarDrive's Dreadnaught was introduced.

 

This I approve of. Anything that elaborates futher on TOTJ-era Republic warships and Fleet Captain Vanicus is ok in my book.

To chime in briefly on warship classifications, I rather hope that Jason doesn't spend to much time on this. Frankly, it is a now win scenario, as there is no concieveable way that the WEG and Saxton classification methods can be combined into anything that makes sense.

Ultimately, each era is chalk full of starships that cannot be fit into one standard system. Just look at battle cruisers. They are either multi-kilometer behemoths or <800 warships like the Scythe-class of 130 ABY.

I would be much happier to see the various militaries and navies of the galaxy's powers fleshed out via organization charts. Let's see how the Galactic Republic, Confederacy, Empire, Rebellion, New Republic, Imperial Remnant, and Galactic Alliance organized their forces.

--Adm. Nick

 

Organization would be kinda cool, but maybe generalizations or just a broad overview. What I really want to know if how they FIGHT!! I'd be more interested in how the different factions conducted each of the major wars, and how the organization, equipment, and people all fit into it; and how it all evolved. And sex it up with side bars of how iconic weapons, revolutionary technology, or brilliant people shaped the conflict (stuff we've heard of and stuff we haven't). Maybe add little touches like 'letters home' or 'dispatches from the front' that help personalize these large-scale conflicts.

Like maybe explain WHY these super ships are never used in favor of smaller ships. The Venators were much more dependable, standardized, and were made on a scale large enough that they were the preferred units that fit best with the Republic's strategy... or how the Scythe's small size but focused power/speed matched with the GA's naval philosophy of the time (I kind of think of them as the role of guided-missile destroyers of today).

I dunno, I think that'd be cool.

Haha and I'm in the Air Force... trust me, reading about organizations is not my idea of fun. Just me...

 

While not directly related, there is this for the Invincible-class -
"At the time, it was one of the largest battle cruisers in the Old Republic fleet. For the time, these ships were an amazing feat of engineering... these two-kilometer long vessels were feared throughout the civilized worlds.
However, the pace of technological advancement outdated the Invincible within a few decades. Space fleet policy shifted from large battle platforms, like the Invincible, to smaller cruisers. While these newer and smaller ships had to work in concert for applied firepower, they were much more effective in small scale engagements and battle maneuvers. These smaller ships mounted better weapons, more powerful shields and could rely on far fewer crew members, and soon the days of the Invincible Dreadnaught were past. The Invincibles were retired and history marched on."
- Corporate Sector SB, p. 92.

Naval philosophies change with the times. I would imagine that in the wake of the Ruusan Reformations, I idea that massive Dreadnaughts would be needed seemed pointless.
The Essential Atlas has an interesting quote as well:

"The Militarists pushed through authorization for a new fleet of Dreadnaughts, code-named Katana..." - p. 140

Which is a little ambiguous. Were the Rendili Dreadnaughts being made prior to this, or were the Dark Force Fleet the first ones made? Tarkin's fleet didn't seem to have any in the Stark Hyperspace War, IIRC... but by the Outbound Flight novel the Corporate Sector and many Core Worlds had bought them in large numbers. There's also the mysterious Corellian light cruisers that were mentioned briefly in Rogue Planet that were said to be specifically designed to escort the Dreadnaught-class.
The usage of "star cruiser" and "star dreadnaught" in the Saga SOTG appears to be an attempt to include the terminology Saxton introduced while making is clear that "Star Destroyer" would always refer to a design philosophy. While I don't know how much stock you can put in the chart - which is technically describing game mechanics - but the "star dreadnaughts" are in the WOTC system; they are treated as mobile space stations rather than capital ships, that's all.
I agree, though, that KDY's terminology does not necessarily mean that the OR/Empire would be using the same system as the corporation. In fact, here's something from the Rebel Alliance SB -
"Following are the standard Imperial classifications of capital ships; with some variations, these are also used by the Alliance and by many other spacefaring species. It should be noted, however, that the distinction between vessel types is often muddy, and individual corporations or navies may gave their ships wholly inappropriate classifications." - p. 50
I agree as well that the Republic would've dispensed with the "dreadnaught" category (even if they name heavy cruiser ship class after the old designation) until the Clone Wars came around. However, it's interesting to note that not only the 2km Invincibles were classified as Dreadnaughts, but also Trench's ship which was even shorter (and coincidentally the same name...) I guess this is one of the possible questions Jason can address, although we may get a better picture once the new CWAS Guide comes out.
"Battleship" is thrown around a lot, but it's hard to tell if there's any official designation behind it: it's been used for the Malevolence, ISDs, and even the Acclamators.

I imagine that there's too much to cover, both time-wise and category-wise, already to dwell on it - but maybe a boxed text briefly talking about the history of ship classifications, akin to the description of the

 

If you're like me and not a Canon-Literalist, there is one way to make the two systems work: drop the use of the Star prefix for the purposes of official classification. I wouldn't object to the classification of starships that the military deems unreasonably-sized for most operations as "dreadnoughts", but the Star prefix is quite unnecessary to make this work out. I think a corvette->frigate->cruiser->battleship->dreadnought scale works out well enough without requiring the use of Star prefixes.

Now if you excuse me, I will entertain you all with random military quotes from the ANH novelization:

The IG-series and droid commandos from TCW have a few words for R2 and 3P0.

Here, Senator Romodi explains why the Rebellion has need of hidden fortresses like Yavin IV and Hoth and can't solely rely on the fleet alone to wage war. Two questions: what other things has Romodi done in his life, and how long can a crewer stay on board a starship without going insane?

The first quote has long been used as evidence that Alderaan was protected by a planetary shield, and frankly I see nothing contradictory about banning weapons while keeping a shield in place. Tarkin also mentions that Alderaan was the Rebellion's main source of weapons, and that the Senate was informed that the Death Star did in fact in fact destroy the Empire. Real smart move there, genius.

According to General Dodana, reactor exhaust can't pass through particle shielding. Also insightful is how there are other ways to limit the maneuverability of a starfighter other than a tractor beam.

Geez, naval gunners can't

 

You mean corvette-frigate-destroyer-cruiser-carrier-battlecruiser-battleship/dreadnaught, don't you? The Trade Federation (AOTC:ICS), Old Republic (Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Praji) and CIS navies (ROTS, ROTS:ICS, TCW) all fielded destroyers in their time, and the designated Star Destroyers arguably perform a mix of destroyer, carrier and cruiser duties.

The clinch is deriving any difference between the Star Destroyers and the SSDs (Star Cruisers, Star Battlecruisers, Star Dreadnoughts) beyond simply size. That's all we get from SW:CL page 171, and it doesn't touch on the difference in use for ships that don't have large hangar areas (Tector-class, Allegiance etc.) or whether their effectiveness was improved with a larger hull that could carry more power equipment. This seems very much the case with ships in TCW, as a single, large destroyer can hammer down the defenses of a smaller Venator in Grievous Intrigue (as the episode guide states it did), and the Malevolence is quite effective against Venator task forces.

 

That discussion again. I think it would be best, if Jason just quoted C3PO in VectorPrime:

Or he could say, that the WEG/WOTC-scale is used (and works) on the level of planetary defence-fleets and sector-groups as well as the Old Republic during peace-times, while the empire?s centralized Navy and the large shipbuilders use the other one for the sake of clarity.

Aside from that I would to see this topic covered:

Darth Vader?s DeathSquadron (note the moniker ?squadron?) is supposed to be the largest assembly of warships in the empire. Unfortunately the same claim is made for the Armada used by Miles Giel in his attempt to bring the alien Tzeel to Coruscant. It might be possible, that DeathSquadron is larger than the Armada as far as hull-numbers are concerned, but it might be possible, that with Giels flagship and his large carrier the entire tonnage of the Armada is still larger. J

However, recently reading on Zsinj?s entry at the Wook, as well as the linked articles the following claim caught my eye:
?the military resources deployed to the Quelii Oversector, led by the Super Star Destroyer Brawl, constituted the most powerful single combat force in the Imperial Navy. The Oversector had presumably been created to prosecute the ongoing war against the warlike Drackmarians, who were the dominant species of the Sector?

So which one is the largest? DeathSquadron, Giels Armada or the Quelii Oversector fleet? And how large are they actually? Zsinj?s forces might well be between 100 and 2,400 ISDs (the lower number is based on Tarkin?s four sector-groups from the DSTC, while the larger one is based on the ?empire committing the resources for scores of sectorgroups on the DeathStar?, according to the ISB) and their escorts. No wonder the guy managed to become the most powerful of all the warlords.

The quote is also interesting for its other implications: The largest military force of the empire wasn?t fighting the Rebel-Alliance, but the Drackmarians, a species barely mentioned in more than a handful of sources, although this ties nicely in with this quote from HoT:

 

I'd like to see some more Strategic Commands named in this book. I'm positive Fry has something special planned for us, Black Sword Command and Azure Hammer Command are a good start, but there's obvious room for more. Crimson Axe Command? Amethyst Dagger? Jade Scythe? Platinum Drill?

FTeik, it's possible Giel's secret armada was bigger in its day, given it was put together years after Death Squadron, iirc.

 

What's supposed to be the practical difference between a destroyer and cruiser though? Cruisers such as the Venators and ISDs are already capable of either serving as flagships or escorting bigger ships. In SW, "destroyer" seems to be nothing more than an alternate name for "cruiser", just like how "President of the Republic" was another name for "Supreme Chancellor" instead of being two seperate positions.

Giel's armada was assembled after the Battle of Hoth, so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Giel brought more ships than Vader did to Hoth. In addition, a Naval superiority fleet (what Death Squadron actually was despite the misleading name) contained about six Star Destroyers and 390 other warships. The TESB novelization furthermore mentions 20 "battleship" commanders (Captain Needa was among them, so it's safe to assume these "battleships" were Star Destroyers), so it's clear Lord Vader's fleet was augmented with more powerful ships than usual even if we never saw more than five ISDs at a time. Therefore, one can conclude the Vader commanded more ships than Giel even if the latter had more ships in his formation than the five ISDs that tag along with the Executor.

 

There must be some difference, otherwise the CIS wouldn't have ships classified light destroyer (Recusant), destroyer/carrier (Providence) and heavy cruiser (Subjugator), which they did. They'd all be classified the same.

Now, those came from the same ship-manufacturer, so the naming procedure seems like something similar to the Star Destroyer (Venator, Gladiator, Imperator etc.), Star Battlecruiser (Procurator) and Star Dreadnought (Mandator, Executor etc.), which also all came from the same manufacturer or same region of space. Hmm, maybe some manufacturer's systems were used more publically than others.

 

Nitpick: it was the CIS-loyal shipyards that "classified" their own products, just like how it is with every other shipyard. Trying to figure out how the CIS classifies their ships by using product names results in some weird inconsistencies, such as the Diamond-class "cruiser" only having two measly laser cannon batteries and the Subjugator-class heavy cruiser clearly outgunning the Lucrehulk-class battleship. I grow weary of this back-and-forth though so I'll end it with one last riddle for you: what's the practical difference between a shuttle and a transport?

Anywho, I now have a curious quote from the Star Wars Sketchbook about the X-Wing:

While we now know that the T-65 X-Wing was a somewhat recent design as of ANH, I wonder just how exactly did the resource-strapped Rebellion produce craft like the T-65, the RZ-1 A-Wing, and the B-Wing in sufficient numbers? Were the vast majority of X-Wings really Z-95s that were modified in an attempt to upgrade to T-65 standards? I'd bet that there were all sorts of X/A/B-Wing variations and knock-offs used by each Rebel faction during the pre-Endor GCW; some better than others based on what sort of resources were available to each faction. I never liked the EU's tendency to give the pre-Endor Alliance the same ships over and over again. The cash-strapped Alliance should be using everything it could get their hands on, from stolen Assault Gunboats to ex-CIS ships purchased off the black market, from "home-made" A-Wings to retired Republic vessels the Empire decided to send to a junkyard world. The only thing I can't see the Alliance use on a normal basis are TIEs since the Empire has a superior ability to simply replace broken parts rather than needing them to last.

 

FTeik, the gate swings both ways, as the quote from the RESB attests. We'll see how it's handled in the long run.

As far as the Rebel Alliance goes, we have one explanation for the A-wings - they were individually crafted and used the R-22 Spearheads as their base for most of the Galactic Civil War. Shortly before the Battle of Endor (in Force Commander), the Alliance liberates Abridon, which allows them to use their starfighter manufacturing facilities to create A-wings.
On a lesser level, one of the missions in X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter involves the Empire hitting a deep space Koensayr manufacturing facility that is turning out Y-wings.

One subject I would really like to see in the EGTW - the Galactic Civil War from the military perspective, especially one that integrated the various games set in the era - the X-Wing series, Galactic Battlegrounds, Dark Forces, Rogue Squadron and Force Commander. There's almost the start of this in the Essential Atlas (I really liked the canonization of the Alliance ending of the Balance of Power campaign)

 

I hated the entire Atlas because of that one bit; the bad guys should have a canonized ending for a change!

About the Galactic Civil War though (and Operation Skyhook in particular), one thing's been nagging at me: how did Basso of Ralltiir come across knowledge of the Death Star? Perhaps the bit of data stolen during the Death Star Uprising and transfered to Polis Massa eventually found itself hypnotically imprinted in his brain via some convoluted scheme? Oh, was Leia and any other Rebel told what the Death Star was by the Rebellion's leaders after their escape? I could certainly see Organa and Mothma wishing to avoid panic among the rank-and-file by completely disclosing DS-I's intended capabilities.

About incorporating the video games, how should the Empire at War series be handled..... especially the first game? At the very least, the events of the first game ought to take place over the course of a few years (I see no reason why Mothma couldn't be leading a Rebel faction before the Treaty of Corellia was signed).

 

What about TIE Fighter?

The Imperial set seems to start before the Alliance campaign, although they both end at ANH. Specifically, the Alliance campaign's beginning is tied directly to the acquiring of the original X-Wings, which other media seems to have firmly locked down after the formation of the Rebel Alliance.

 

I think I already said that. However, that's not all there is to it. Those designations were used by the militaries they served in as well. Same with the Star Destroyers, too, which I already pointed to a source doing the same in the CW-era.

A shuttle is primarily a small transport focused on transporting personnel. A non-shuttle transport can be many times bigger than a shuttle to transport material.

The Diamond-class is a transport, first and foremost, not a dedicated warship. Same with the Consular-class cruiser in its pre-war centuries. The classifications might be related to the real-life use of "space cruiser" for any space-faring ship in SW, whether military or not.

The dedicated heavy cruiser being stronger/larger than a pre-war freighter-battleship isn't too extreme an example. Like in real-life, warship sizes can increase and overtake previous generations.
Although, it might be argued that the various CW-era upgrades to the Lucrehulk made it just as deadly, if not more. Interestingly enough, real-life heavy cruisers were rather large, but nowhere near the mass of battleships. An even heavier armored cruiser off-shoot eventually became the starting point for the battlecruiser type, which did approach battleship mass.

As for a good example of a destroyer being different from a cruiser, there's the Trade Federation destroyer from AOTC:ICS. It's lighter than the Trade Federation's cruisers and battleships, which all utilize the same Core Ship modules. It's interesting how the same passage refers to said cruisers as having better gun positions than the battleships, with that being their main difference. So the cruisers in this case might also be of a similar size to the older battleships.
The destroyer model is said to be the lightest and is used for convoy escorts and for hunting blockade runners. I guess the main difference between a more "classical" destroyer like this and the modern Star Destroyers is that the latter have facilities for acting like command ships and for travelling more independently.

 

*sigh*

1. In "Storm Over Ryloth", we have the CIS referring to their Munificents as battlecruisers (for the GAR's part, they classify those particular ships as cruisers and frigates in the same episode), but does that really prove that the Munificents can be classified as battlecruisers?
2. The Delta-class DX-9 stormtrooper transport is, as it name suggests, designed to transport personnel of the stormtrooper persuasion. Why isn't it called a shuttle then even though it has the same capacity as a Nu-class attack shuttle?

The point I'm trying to make is that there have been numerous times in the SW universe where a ship-builder or another random individual gives some sort of arbitrary description of a ship (fun fact: there were a couple of times in the ANH radio drama where the ISDs get described as "battlewagons"). It's quite obvious that in order to establish a functional ship class system, we can't rely mainly on product names and whatever random terms that beings like to use. The only truly effective way to classify vehicles in this new EGTW is to analyze the history of each type of vehicle and trace what sorts of roles they get put into, and not let petty things like names get too much in the way of this process.


Now I have truely nothing left to say about this issue.

 

They are names, though. Battlecruiser 17 and Battlecruiser 19. Most quick references in TCW to capital ships say "cruiser". There's even a term, "cruiser-to-cruiser combat", for when capital ships fight. It's really not the most technical of terms. Recall when they're planning the second attack, the frigates are called frigates, the cruisers cruisers and the battleship, a battleship. They use more correct terminology in a strategic planning session than in a heated combat zone. That's why they go "cruiser" in combat zones as a quick term for whatever capital ships are around, and presumably "battleship" for any big combat vessel.

There might also be one possible technical solution, when I think about it. In Grievous Intrigue, the CIS sensors apparantly classified the Venators as "Cruiser-class" and the light cruiser and frigates as "Escort-class". In which case, most capital ships would be of a certain size to be called "Cruiser-class" or cruisers for short, thus explaining the extensive use. Hmm, maybe a future episode could show something being called "Battleship-class" for a big craft?

As for the Stormtrooper Transport, isn't the shuttle destinction mostly used for dignitiary vessels and smaller transports, rather than a catch-all? When moving from ship to ship in a fleet, that's when shuttles get used, even the Attack kind, and not a random designated troop transport. Shuttles we mostly see in mundane jobs, with troop transports being almost exclusive launched into combat zones. That's the major difference from what I can see. I actually have more trouble telling apart dropships and landing craft. Landing craft might be expected to stick around longer while dislodging its cargo, while dropships literally drop their cargo and race back to get more.

I also contend that when a company creates a Star Battlecruiser or a Star Dreadnought to serve the exact same militaries, those distinctions are used to highlight differences, like military terminology is supposed to. A designated Star Destroyer is not going to be the same as a designated Star Battlecruiser or Dreadnought. That they're part of the same Star Destroyer design trend is one thing, but that doesn't do away with systemization or the use of naval terms for distinct identification.

 

There are other ways to figure out distinctions than looking at the product name; one would think more technical and accurate jargon would be listed in actual schematics given to potential customers. Is it a B-class frighter or N-class (fun fact: Jaxxon's freighter is N-class according to Marvel issue 16)? Is a frigate Class I, or Class II like the Rand Ecliptic? That's exactly the sort of technical stuff you won't find by just looking at the bloody product name or vague catch-all description (like "Star Cruiser", "battlewagon" or "Trade Federation Destroyer"). For the record though, I'm still absolutely unconvinced that a galactic classification system needs to bother with a Star prefix for top-tier ships like "battlecruiser", "battleship", and "dreadnought".

That reminds me: what sort of stupid-ass name is Star Destroyer-class battlecruiser supposed to be? Any person with a critically-minded brain can figure out that those ships from the Marvel comics are really supposed to depict ISDs despite gross "artistic licenses". We already know that Mulchive Wermis was the captain of the Devestator during the events of ANH, so why not go all the way and retcon every instance of this "battlecruiser" into an ISD as the creators of the Marvel SW comics obviously intended in the first place?

Another rant: the Pursuit-class light cruiser (as classified by Han Solo) should be given a proper name, and maybe a prettier look too. It's quite clear that Han Solo was not refering to Imperial ships by their proper "product names" in Issue 18, since he also called the ISDs "Star Destroyer-class" instead of Imperial-class, so it's completely likely that "Pursuit-class" is not the correct name for Strom's flagship too.

Speaking of Strom, where does he fit into the Imperial hierarchy? He is described as a Sector Commander, but he seems to be stuck to patrolling a military containment zone around The Wheel? yet he got a nifty set of TIE Advanced starfighters. Maybe the area around The Wheel was some sort of priority micro-sector?

 

Isn't this kind of discussion what the Fleet Junkie thread is for?

Not to mention...should the author actually try to clarify anything, would it really solve anything? The people who don't agree with whichever system he used would just reject the work and argue that the system they favor is more accurate.

PS-I was looking through the Atlas again and found the picture of the Force Wars, and I remembered how cool I thought taht was.

It makes me wonder how much attention will be given to wars before the Sith came. Not just fore related ones either, but also things like the PD Crusades and the Tionese War.

What I wouldn't do for picture from that time.

 

I'm rather curious as to the role of Jedi in the Pius Dea Crusades. Did they sit it out? Attempt to rein in the Chancellor? Actively oppose the Chancellor? Take part in the alien pogroms? I'd love to see this addressed in the Atlas.

 

Warfare involves many things... such as how warships get classified.

And I do feel like trying to create a workable system can work out if enough effort is put into it. Ie. we need something comprehensive like this that can accurately describe all warships (and other military vehicles involved in warfare). I mean come on; is such a task that much more difficult than listing the coordinates of nearly every known planet in the SW Universe? In fact, let's come up with some hull classifications now.

Going by the Marvel comics, there are at least two types of cruisers; pursuit, and "Star Destroyer". Cruisers that fall under the Pursuit catagory would theoretically be intended mainly for star system "police" work like catching smugglers, and that these ships represent the largest practical size for "police" work. Almost all pre-CW cruisers would have been dumped into the Pursuit Cruiser category. As for the "Star Destroyer" category, that name sounds a bit too clunky for a cruiser category, so I'll go ahead and call this other type a Cruiser Destroyer. Just as it sounds like, a Cruiser Destroyer is supposed to destroy other cruisers in combat. Right there, we can see how ships ranging from the Carrack to the Imperator can be labeled as cruisers. I fail to see how anyone could object to such a systematic approach if applied to every vehicle and weapon ever mentioned in the SW franchise.