The EU and the Land of the Free

Apologies if this thread gets nasty about politics (which i hope it doesn't), a thousand apologies if this has been done to death already, but here goes...

I was watching ANH the other day and was struck for the millionth time about US War of Independence themes that run through it and the rest of the classic trilogy (the British Imperial accent says it all really ).

Anyway, i started thinking about all of SW (including EU) and began to wonder how closely it follows the history of America (obviously, the galaxy is been strecthed a bit but you get the idea )

The Post-RotJ era was full of victories against unscrupulous opponents (including a controversial war to put the genocidal Yevetha back in place) and a period of detente with and virtual collapse of their long-time enemy after the rise of more moderate leadership (i.e. Pellaeon).

The Prequels were a time of corruption and devastation. Could this be a cunningly disguised, (though rather harsh ), critique of Imperial Britain prior to the American Revolution ? We know how much George loves those colonial-era Brits

No idea where the ToTJ era comes in ; perhaps the ancient bloody history of Europe, or a time when myths walked the earth.

And finally we come to NJO. A sign of things to come ?

Any thoughts ?

 

Besides the British accents vs. American accents, I can't really find any parallels between the Galactic Civil War and the American War for Independence. In fact, there are major differences, the greatest of which being that the Rebels are trying to overthrow the Empire, not break away from it.

Nor do I see any parallels between the Cold War/Vietnam(is that what you're alluding to in your comparison with the BFC?) and post-RotJ. The Cold War was exactly the way it sounds; the USA and USSR never had an all-out conflict, in contrast to the Empire and Rebellion/New Republic. Don't get me started on the differences between the Yevetha and the Vietcong .

 

While I don't agree I?ll play along.

If the NJO is a sign of things to come it?s that the US leadership has become corrupt and that it will take a pyco religious group to blow up Washington and kill one of Bush's daughters as well as the family dog before America reshapes itself into a world power worth of being proud of itself.

I hope this isn't the case, but then again i'm also canadian.

 

Darth_Guy :

True, none of them are exact parallels. I was looking at more general trends with a couple of specific similarities.

Actually, i was thinking more of a Kosovo-type conflict for the Yevetha thing.

I was referring to the Imperial Remnant/NR struggle as a kind of Cold War. The real Cold War had hot spots (not involving actual US/Soviet conflict of course)and parts of the later Bantam era were pretty hot but mostly consisted of long periods of tension and plotting, etc. Anyway, i was thinking more in terms of the Cold War length and its end.

There are plenty of parallels in the Classic trilogy ; the idea of a farmboy running off at a moment's notice (especially after the bad empire kills his family, ala the Mel Gibson Patriot movie) to support these high moral ideologies is very much in the spirit of the American Revolution. Not to mention the role of the smuggler in defying imperial decrees both before and after the war (though the real life infamous smugglers were a bit better off than Han and associates) and the guerilla tactics of the Rebellion.

Dante_Glass : LOL, that dog has to be sacrificed for the greater good

 

they write books about star wars now?

 

If the NJO is a sign of things to come it?s that the US leadership has become corrupt and that it will take a pyco religious group to blow up Washington and kill one of Bush's daughters as well as the family dog before America reshapes itself into a world power worth of being proud of itself.

I hope this isn't the case, but then again i'm also canadian.

I personally like how America handles its self. Instead of caving into the pressures of some countries who want to talk softly and carry a limp stick. America takes a stand. What really irratates me is when a country faced with terrorist demands caves in. Yeah that is sure going to put a stop to those murdering animals. With contries that are that weak, Americas lonely war on terrorism will never end.

 

Well, if you want a comparison between the NJO and US history look no further then the situation in the middle east. Religious Zealots that believe the established government is an infidel state and must be destroyed. Unspeakable crimes with no real military value (terrorism) were commited early on in the war with little or no rational or warning. Early attempts to hurt the zealots were ineffectual but the war started to go over to the "infidels" slowly but surely. A powerful state paralyzed by indecision and fear. I think that the intital situation represented by the NJO definitely has roots in the real world situation.

-The Rebel Gungan

 

"I personally like how America handles its self. Instead of caving into the pressures of some countries who want to talk softly and carry a limp stick. America takes a stand. What really irratates me is when a country faced with terrorist demands caves in. Yeah that is sure going to put a stop to those murdering animals. With contries that are that weak, Americas lonely war on terrorism will never end."

hey Vongbait, you do realize I was kidding right? I honestly don't think there is a strong comparison to be made between the NJO and now. Sure they've both got religious fanatics but the Vong are a large enemy, a mass culture, Islamic culture/religion isn't fanatical, you've got the radical actions of a select few, if anything a parallel can be drawn between there struggle and the rebel alliance, except there a bunch of (insert foul langue) and the rebels where fun loven freedom fighters. It all makes sense, from a certain point of view.

 

I think that generally parallels can be drawn with a lot of historical regimes/empires/periods/conflicts/people and the history and people of the GFFA. As humans, we look for patterns where none necessarily exist. I'm not saying you're wrong, DaJames, I'm just saying that occurances in the GFFA are inevitably going to reflect some aspect of history, and if you look hard enough, you'll be able to draw correlations everywhere. I seem to recall, back when i used to frequent these boards, comparisons with Patton, Caesar, the Roman Empire/Republic etc etc etc.

"I personally like how America handles its self. Instead of caving into the pressures of some countries who want to talk softly and carry a limp stick.

because talking hard and brandishing the biggest stick you can find was the appropriate thing to do, right? Especially when you're wanting to start, say, a war on fictitious grounds, and instill fear into the populace. In which case you better paint all those damn pikers as cowards. its all so transparent, I don't know how anyone has bought into the war on terror.

Americas lonely war on terrorism will never end."

america's 'war on terrorism' has meant the deaths of more innocent civilians in the last year and a half than have died as a result of terrorist attacks on america in its entire history. all in the name of fighting terror and liberating a nation.

Saddam had to go, but no one can justify it on the grounds of making america safe, or on fighting terror.

I'm sorry. way OT, but I had to say it. I am disgusted by terrorism as much as anyone, and was utterly dismayed, appalled, scared, angry and upset by the events of 9/11. But that doesn't justify all thats been done.

I deserve to be banned for this, I think. buy I've spoken my mind.

 

If the NJO is a sign of things to come it?s that the US leadership has become corrupt and that it will take a pyco religious group to blow up Washington and kill one of Bush's daughters as well as the family dog before America reshapes itself into a world power worth of being proud of itself.

The Australia or Britain commits its army to help America and the Americans accidently drop a Nuke on them and destroy most of the army, but other than that they dont get touched.

Meh win some lose some

 

I definitely got a lot of a Muslim Extremist with Vietnamese names vibe while reading the series.

 

The Prequels were a time of corruption and devastation. Could this be a cunningly disguised, (though rather harsh wink ), critique of Imperial Britain prior to the American Revolution ? We know how much George loves those colonial-era Brits happy


I'd just like to say that the British weren't nearly as corrupt as some Americans might think, and that the Americans weren't always on the side of the angels. Take the Boston Tea Party: it was smugglers protesting British a lowering of taxes that cut them out of the business.

 

Hmm... bearing in mind that the OT directly inspired the Department of Defence to look into strategic space-based beam weaponry, I fear that it's more that life imitates art than the other way around...

In TPM, a mild-mannered and outwardly upright politician promising to restore the old-fashioned values which had made the Republic great was returned as President thanks to a rather dubious election...

In AotC, the same President and his shadowy cronies used the pretext of terrorist outrages, and the darker and more silent sentiments of old-fashioned nationalism, to manufacture a war of aggression, manipulating religious and patriotic sentiment to send an army off to die for them in distant places...

And in RotS, the President is revealed as a representative of an insane extremist sect; he siezes dictatorial power, institutes a bloody reformation, and, because the more you tighten your grip, the more hearts and minds will slip through your fingers, he provokes the most horrifically destructive war ever seen...



- The Imperial Ewok

 

*bites tounge off*

 

The Democrats ARE not socialists.... how many times must I say that!?? Good G-d!

Anyways, I think the reason the Imp officers all seemed to have British accents was because it seemed to give them a nice, cultured but menacing voice. Or would prefer that they spoke like Prussians?

 

The Vong names are more of a Chinese/Japanese eastern sound, than muslim or whatever.
Tsavong Lah, Nom Anor. Also the case they adore harakiri/seppuku

No, for all there is, it's NOT about United States. Star Wars IS apolitical, and let it be so. The Empire is just an abstract Empire with feats of different Empires, both bad & good feats (british accent, but Reich-resembling uniforms). The Rebels are an abstract Rebellion. The dictators are an abstract display of the anarchy state in a great Galaxy.

And as for me and America - United States is now becoming more and more EVIL, more and more like the agressive Empire shown in the movies. Iraq is NOT in the least connected with terrorism, Al-Quaeda and Bin Laden. Civilians are killed (freaking 15,000 now). Iraq is thrown into anarchy. This is "help" and "democratical" process? I live in Russia. Things are very different from here; I'm not told everyday by BBC or CNN about the greatness and morality of America. I don't hear any apologies of Rumsfield's nonsense about "precise" bombings. I know that more american soldiers died in this war than in Vietnam, and I guess everybody here knows that too. I know and I have seen what was in Abu-Ghraib. I've seen what this military agression has done.

"War on Terrorism" is Bush's blood for oil in fact. He's the terrorist ¹1. IMHO.

It's sad Bush got chosen again.
Thus I have expressed my views as well.

 

I know that more american soldiers died in this war than in Vietnam, and I guess everybody here knows that too.

Not true...

 

Jello: The 'Star Wars' moniker was applied by the media and such because the idea seemed so absurd. The DoD was not inspired by the movies in any way, shape, or form.

I was under the impression that SDI began when someone high up the chain of command (Reagan?) saw ANH or RotJ, and asked whether the USA couldn't develop invulnerable space-based weapons platforms to take out the enemy...

Maybe just an urban myth...

Of course you can twist it that way, but he was elected on a sympathy vote. He promised nothing about eliminating corruption, save for a personal conversation intended to fool Queen Amidala.

You don't think that his remarks might represent a policy agenda he might espouse publicly, then...?

Of course, anyone can misconstrue things to look any way they want. Especially when they're overly bitter and seek any justification for their views.

Bitter? Nahh. That was a fairly light-hearted post, btw.

The idea was that people who might see the parallel as absurd could hopefully treat it as just a joke, and laugh along, even if their amusement would be perhaps directed in part at the person making the joke...

But if you missed the intended historical parallels and saw what you wanted to see instead, then that's just your own fault.

A manufactured war, engineered for selfish motives, through the manipulation of nationalist sentiment, in order to carry through a political revolution and a religious reformation?

Hmm...

Whatever the "intended historical parallels" may be, I can't help but feel that Lucas' main aim in the Prequels is to show how good intentions and idealism can be abused and used to serve evil... the message is, I think, "be critical of your leaders, especially if they start talking about restoring past glories, defeating the bad guys, and writing the wrongs of the world"...

Are you sure you even saw the movie? Terrorism had nothing to do with it. It was outright treason and warfare. If anything, it alludes to a civil war than anything else.

See Quest's answer. Palpatine's powers are passed because of terrorist attacks and a climate of fear, not because the Seperatists are arming for war - that's something very few people know about, except the viewer...

The tension between the narrative POV and what we must assume that the Senate knows is IMHO, quite deliberate...

But again, if you want to imagine things, go ahead.

Am I imagining things? Please, tell me what I've missed?

Need a tissue?

No. Well, not to wipe away tears, at any rate...

If you want, apply for American citizenship and vote Democrat, if you want. When the United States economy crumbles under socialism, and the entire world is thrown into disarray, you'll only have yourself to blame.

Nah. On the citizenship thing, I'll remain a subject of the British crown, if you don't mind.

For one thing, it seems a lot more sensible to me to associate romantic notions like patriotic sentiment with the feel-good soap-opera and part-time moral leadership of a constitutional monarchy than with a presidential executive exercising considerable political and military imperium...

For another, I can't help feeling entirely within my rights in voicing an opinion when I think another country is having a deleterious effect on international security... you'd be welcome to do the same if you had issues with the UK, and I'd try to answer or engage with 'em, as politely and reasonably as I could...

On the "socialist" thing - um, huh?! I fear that your definition of the term is very different from mine - care to elaborate what you mean and why it's bad?

Certainly, your fear of this nebulous threat and what it might hypothetically provoke is paralleled by my concern at what current US military, political, social and economic policy is achieving anyway...

Considering how massively "patriots" are outnumbered by Democrats, Candadians, Mexicans and Europeans, I'd be worried, if I were you...

 

The Prequels were a time of corruption and devastation. Could this be a cunningly disguised, (though rather harsh ), critique of Imperial Britain prior to the American Revolution ?

not quite. this is more like it:

In TPM, a mild-mannered and outwardly upright politician promising to restore the old-fashioned values which had made the Republic great was returned as President thanks to a rather dubious election...

In AotC, the same President and his shadowy cronies used the pretext of terrorist outrages, and the darker and more silent sentiments of old-fashioned nationalism, to manufacture a war of aggression, manipulating religious and patriotic sentiment to send an army off to die for them in distant places...

And in RotS, the President is revealed as a representative of an insane extremist sect; he siezes dictatorial power, institutes a bloody reformation, and, because the more you tighten your grip, the more hearts and minds will slip through your fingers, he provokes the most horrifically destructive war ever seen...

that's pretty much it exactly. the prequels aren't about pre-revolutionary America, they're about contemporary America, a deeply corrupt dysfunctional pseudo-democracy that sells its freedom for the illusion of security in the face of a trumped-up threat.

bear in mind that GL is still, at heart, a radical in the late 60s/early 70s Bay Area tradition, throwing cinematic Molotovs at the American establishment. this is the guy who began his career attacking American consumerism and conformity in THX 1138, and designed the Ewoks in ROTJ as a direct homage to the Viet Cong (following the ANH script draft ideas for the Wookies, as the Ewok notes). the Empire in the OT is the America that went to war in Vietnam, and the Rebels and their Ewok allies are the insurgency which uses guerilla warfare to overthrow an arrogant, overly complacent, technologically superior imperialist enemy.

EDIT: in the OT, i think you could argue that Luke represents a sort of idealized American farmboy. he's the son of Good America - kind of naive and impatient, but sweet and helpful and eager to protect the downtrodden and set the wrong things right. in ANH, he naively wants to join the Academy, and hasn't quite gotten the memo that things outside of Kansas have gotten very bad. Obi-Wan has to give him the 411: there was a Good America and an Evil America, and Evil America betrayed and murdered Good America, and turned the whole place into a militaristic police state. in other words, into the soulless police state America which Lucas had parodied/critiqued earlier in THX 1138. Obi-Wan tries to rekindle the traditional values of Good America in Luke, and he and a group of like-minded individuals set out to redeem America, partially through armed insurrection, but also by trying to remind America what was once good about it.

to a large extent, this is tied into Lucas' obsession with Joseph Campbell and the power of myth. by making a movie that incorporates everything that made him love America as a kid, he's trying to rekindle the mythic heart of Good America to overthrow the Evil America he sees all around him in the Vietnam/post-Vietnam era. it's a New Age hippie thing and it's very much a fairy tale of America as seen through the eyes of the radical 60s anti-establishment counterculture.

the PT, then, is the story about how the very values that make Good America Good America, especially the need to make the wrong things right, can easily lead down the slippery slope to Evil America. Anakin basically has good intentions - he just wants to "fix things." but because he has no patience, because he's arrogant, because he's extremely politically naive, and because he's too apt to get caught up in the desire for vengeance when he is wronged, he's led by the nose into doing Very Bad Things. it's the story of how Good America became Evil America.

 

People, Star Wars is fiction. GL has enough trouble making this a good story, let alone tying SW with current events...

For what it's worth. Today's Dems are socialist. If John Kennedy or Harry Truman ( the last good Dem by the way) where to run today, they would BOTH be rebuplican.

And if I recall,dictators, Hitler, Musiliany (sp) Tito, Stalin,Milosovich,.....and Chirac are all from the other side of the pond.

Could we make a rule that these boards be free of current political talk ? It is fiction and a nice place to take some time off from the real world.

 

Just to interject a little bit...

60 thousand Americans were killed in Vietnam, which is many times higher than in the post-9/11 war on terror. 1968 alone had 15 times as many as the 1000 killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As far as socialism goes, my econ textbooks describe it as an intermediate system between capitalism and communism. "Vital" industries like healthcare and utilities are under government control, while "nonvital" industries like retail and food service are privately owned. By this definition, Canada and most of Western Europe are considered socialist nations. The American Democratic party could be considered socialist, given their advocacy of government-controlled healthcare and tax/spend policies. This economic definition of socialism is not the same as the Karl Marx definition, though it is related.

 

SW must be apolitical, since the trade federation has such apolitical sounding names:

Nute Gunray --> Nute sounds Newt (Gingrich). Gunray when syllables are reversed is Ray-gun (Reagan).

Lott Dod --> Senator (like Senators Trent Lott (R) and Chris Dodd (D))