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Lit The EU Apocrypha - Using New Material to Expand the Expanded Universe

Discussion in 'Literature' started by blackmyron, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    The problem IMO is more that it's really more an adaptation of Vos's story in the comics - the fact that DD is an inferior telling is actually mostly unrelated. He effectively infiltrates the Separatists, falls in love, nearly goes over to the dark side, et cetera two times that are completely separate of each other.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  2. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    I think that was explained away that his military rank during the Clone Wars was "Captain", but he was already a Moff of a greater sector at that time. Then again, his son was an Admiral (although killed early on in the Empire).
    I remember - but the stated reason never sat well with me back in the day.
    I can see the loyalist Imperial forces looking to cannibalize the Coruscant fleet to supplement losses elsewhere, confident that the other routes (like through Anaxes) were heavily guarded... and Isard wheedling out an agreement to let them go in exchange for direct control of a couple of SDs and other, lesser capital ships by the ISB. The NR may have been completely unaware of the arrangement and had expected a much larger fleet guarding the planet.
    I could see Amedda as a historical footnote representing a political fiction that no one took seriously; or, failing that, the NR dredging him up as one of the IRC members that stayed behind when Corsucant fell and allowed them to sign a treaty with the 'legitimate' ruler of the Empire, and mark the historical end of the Empire with the fall of Coruscant, regardless of the actual historical events; but personally, I think that Amedda would originally be put forth as the new Grand Vizier back in 1 ABE, but Isard openly in charge by 3 ABE.

    Hey, that's just the rules of the Apocrypha! :p

    I agree; the evidence appears to support this.
    Interesting, I hadn't been aware of the appearance in Battlefront II! But the ship must've either escaped (or never was part of) the Battle of Jakku in the EUA because of its later appearance.
    Did it? That would be perfect in that case...[face_thinking]
    Interesting... that would make sense. The EGW did state Isard let the IRC remain as a "notional council", and Amedda would probably be a powerless figurehead for the council.
    I still think that the peace treaty would've been signed by Amedda after the fall of Coruscant; but the presence of the large Imperial presence consisting of the Orindan fragment and the Pentastar Alignment that would never acknowledge it made it nothing more than a political stunt, unlike in the NewCanon.
    Isard and Rax probably aligned over their intelligence roles, but Rax also seemed like an Emperor's Hand getting orders from the Dark Empire, unbeknownst to Isard - I doubt she knew anything about the Dark Side ruins on Jakku (which more and more seems like one of the Infinite Empire worlds) or his endgame. Pestage would've already been out of the picture if we keep the dates the same... although the real Pestage was probably giving the orders to Rax, anyways. Dangor was probably too involved with having the IRC survive intact, and after the fall of the Committee of Grand Moffs (and the initial failure of the "IFC") became too wary for Isard to take out; she would've been weakened by the loss of his "ally" Rax, anyways.


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    Operation: Cinder would be responsible for hastening the disintegration of the Empire, with targets including worlds within the control of local Imperials; I can see outraged Moffs turning on the attacking forces and declaring independence from the Empire. The sieges of Naboo may not have happened, though, considering Moff Panaka was still a loyal Imperialist a year after Endor.
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    There’s already a peace deal concept in Legends. Two actually — (clone) Pestage’s attempted selling out and the Oxtroe-Pallopides negotiations. Not sure that there’s room for a third in the same time period. It makes the NR look to be chumps.

    There just isn’t room for Amedda to be grand vizier in Legends. Post-Endor was crowded when we got the PT.

    Re: Coruscant, Isard had sufficient control over the Empire to withdraw the Starfleet into the Core. She controlled SSDs. Navy officers regarded Coruscant as the legitimate seat of government until she lost it. I can’t buy the Navy being unwilling to defend Coruscant in Legends, regardless of how satisfactory it may seem in canon. It’s a different set of assumptions about the nature of the Empire.

    Both the Amedda thing and the Coruscant thing strike me less as finding canon info that sheds light onto Legends and more fitting square pegs into round holes. That is, closer to Sinre’s stuff :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    *salutes*

    That’s me.

    But I do enjoy painting Rax as an upstart who usurped the Contingency for his own ends in opposition to his Emperor and Pestage.

    Amedda is held hostage for most of the year of Aftermath, either indirectly or directly, so I don’t mind having two Grand Viziers, being as Amedda does so very little.


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  5. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Maybe Palpatine had different plans for the Contingency, depending on the personnel involved. Rax may have usurped it to a degree, but depending on which leaders survived, a different plan would have unfolded, albeit all leading to the same goal.

    Assuming Rax also existed in Legends, maybe he died earlier, and therefore his involvement didn't happen, whereas Iceheart didn't survive in Canon (I wouldn't be surprised if they tried eliminating each other in both timelines/scenarios, with the different outcomes we see as a result).

    My basic belief that, until or unless proven otherwise, an individual that existed in Legends, also existed in Canon, and vice-versa. The obvious exceptions (as far as I know) are the various Solo offspring, due to the timing of Han and Leia's marriage in the different timelines.
     
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  6. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Here's an unrelated idea that came to mind back when I read Bloodlines, but didn't surface again until now. The issue with the Centrists as essentially neo-Imperials in New Republic politics could be aligned with the law in The New Rebellion (passed against Leia's wishes) that allowed for most former Imperials to take part in the NR's politics.

    There is already a third in Legends, the one from Crimson Empire III (which is odd because from what I remembered in the story, the comic ends with it seeming like they're going to succeed in making peace, and of course not really anything could be released after that to expand on it or explain why it fails). Not to mention the stuff like the temporary alliances against the Nagai, Ssi-Ruuk, Zsinj, probably some others I'm forgetting.
     
  7. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    The Centrist party is definitely forming in New Rebellion, and I see it as the background forces behind the civil war in the Hand of Thrawn duology - the Centrists push for draconian punishments for the Bothans and the Populists the opposite. The crisis actually weakens Centrist support as it shows show centrism results in conflict. Of course the Centrist cause receives a massive boost when the Vong arrive...


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  8. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Honestly I disagree on bringing in the fluff stuff of the NuCanon. It doesn't make sense and there's no place to fit people like Amedda and Rax in. I could add some kind of story about Rax, where he's not actually Palpatine's secret servant, but rather someone out of for his own and trying to outplay the various Warlords with these Sentinel droids. Naturally, we get a lot of scenes like Kaine telling the droids to kriff off and calls in security on them.

    Sloane could potentially still exist, just she never gets the role she does. Probably a Captain and then Admiral in some other fleet, unrelated to the Endor scenario. I can see an aged Sloane in the Remnant, along with a hothead Captain Armitage T. Hux that I spoke about earlier. Different scenarios making for (slightly) different personalities, as he'd still be the hothead we know him as, just in a different less villainous way.

    I can also see, say, Krennic and Galen Erso cameo as two of the scientists behind Daala's Maw Irregular Fleet with a way to show those characters exist, but they've had a completely different role to the one they had in NuCanon. Maybe from there they develop a joint private company, with Krennic insisting on an aggressive focus while Galen's focused on providing tools to rebuild worlds ravaged by the Vong War. The Krennic-Erso Corporation having a had in the Ossus Project, perhaps even in its sabotage by the One Sith? Could see it, especially Krennic having some sort of Peter Weyland in Prometheus role.

    Saying what happens to the NuCanon characters in a Legends timeline is much more interesting in my opinion, instead of trying to fit in NuCanon stories into Legends. We already have the One Canon for that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Brule — Bloodline reminds me a lot of TNR and BFC in that whole Centrist + Vader’s daughter plotline.

    Sinre— Rax goes out of his way to acknowledge Amedda as titular ruler of the Galactic Empire. It’s not that Amedda isn’t considered the grand vizier — it’s that nobody cares.
     
  10. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    There's definitely a political divide similar, and I'd imagine the ones for more centralized government would've been behind the formation of the GA, Caedus and Daala's leaderships.
     
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  11. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Well, Caedus and Daala had their own, different groups of supporters. The Moffs supported Caedus; it helps that he basically promised more territory for them to reabsorb. However, they despised Daala, especially after she forced them to allow women to join the council.

    The traditional military leadership of the GA was mixed, at best, in their support of Caedus, especially as time went on. Daala's promise to keep the Jedi in check, would have earned her supporters among them. At least, that's the impression I got on my recent re-reads of LOTF and FOTJ, so I don't think there would necessarily be a unified Centrist-type support for either leader.
     
  12. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I'm talking about purely in-Senate representation. I really would've liked to see more of how the political parties were, whether there's still a civilian government in the Remnant with a defanged New Order Party too.
     
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  13. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    Ah, got it.
     
  14. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    It’s kinda amusing to imagine that TFA and TLJ did happen, but Han and Luke didn’t die and the New Jedi Order recovered and the GA came back together and moved the capital to Coruscant for that reason in the year between TLJ and DNT...

    ... but conceded territory to an enlarged Remnant/FO to acknowledge the events that occurred. It plays particularly well with the GA trying to appease the Chiss and EotH remnants in the Unknown Regions and even appointing Pellaeon as GA Supreme Commander.

    We don’t know who led the Remnant directly until Pellaeon took back the Head of State in 40 ABY etc.

    The more autocratic bend to the GA under Niathal, Caedus and Daala runs true with an increased Centrist/Imperial/FO mentality, to an extent. Especially when we roll into Outcast and the Unification Summit with Daala, Fel and Phennir ruling the galaxy.

    Eh. YMMV. It’s not in keeping with assuming Legends trumps Canon, of course, none of the ST does, after all.


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  15. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    I was thinking more of a delay to the pieces of the NT happening - at the very least, the "First Order"'s existence is delayed because Palpatine doesn't finally die in the EU until Empire's End.
    It's a lot more difficult since we really don't have much (even at this point) about the Star Wars universe in the NT era. But, for example, I would think that the whole "changing the capital to various other worlds" probably came first in response to the formation of the GFFA - I mean, we have Denon already as the temporary capital. I think that would've been a condition of the formation of the GFFA, that the capital would rotate between various primary worlds, especially with the massive damage to Coruscant. With the capital essentially moved back to Coruscant - probably a 'temporarily indefinite' situation - we would have another reason for the Confederation states to be angry.
    With the fall of Daala and the resolution of the conflict finally (presumably) settled, the reinstatement of the rotating capital would lead to Hosnian Prime becoming the capital.

    Finally finished Life Debt. Yeah, "Phantom Squadron" is obviously Rogue Squadron in the EUA - so they were at the fall of Kashyyyk (which - no offense to NewCanon - was already a much more interesting battle in the EU). One can also see why the NR was so twitchy about Tycho if the whole sleeper agent massacre happened.
     
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  16. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 15, 2008
    I've been a fan of the Dignitaries from ROTJ for a long time, and am responsible for a lot of postings in various online places about the theory that Sim Aloo is Snoke, or Snoke was Sim Aloo, or that Snoke is at least among the Dignitaries. If he did escape Endor, then perhaps he could have started up the First Order while Palps was recuperating on Byss. Aloo/Snoke could even have broken apart from Palps in the aftermath of Endor, not even bothering to go to Byss like so many of the other surviving Dark Adepts.

    There's no real contradiction that I can see.
     
  17. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 15, 2008
    There are Grand Admirals to the regular Admirals, and Grand Moffs to the regular Moffs, so logically it makes sense that there were several plain Viziers beneath the Grand Vizier.

    While they are few and probably coincidental, at least two sources are of note. The Crimson Empire Handbook happens to describe Sate Pestage as being a mere "vizier" instead of Grand Vizier:
    [​IMG]

    Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader has a very useful passage that confirms that not only were there multiple Advisors AND Viziers, it confirms that some of the Court present at Endor were among them, and that the two terms are not necessarily interchangeable. It can be used to more finely classify members of the Court and more prominent Imperials in general!
    [​IMG]
     
  18. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    That made me look up the real-world source of "grand vizier", which I don't believe I've done before. Interesting read. "Vizier" is RL seems to be interchangeable with "advisor", but I agree there's nothing that says there couldn't be a specific title in the hierarchy of Imperial advisors.

    Finished my initial read of Thrawn, and I was not disappointed!
     
  19. Daneira

    Daneira Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 30, 2016
    In my mind, Amedda during the Empire had the same role he had during the Republic - head of the Senate.

    The average lifespan of a Chagrian is 76 years. By the time the Senate is disbanded in ANH, Amedda is at least in his 60s. Then he simply retires to Byss, probably still doing some oversight stuff with the Palpatine clones and the forthcoming Dark Empire, but definitely not the grueling 60+ hour workweeks he likely had on Coruscant.


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  20. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    That is pretty much what happened. He's Head of the Senate, he does some work as Sheev's personal Indiana Jones going around looking for Sith artifacts, before retiring to Byss. We don't know exactly what he did on Byss, but honestly he works more as a Grand Vizier of the Empire during the time of Sheev's Clone, before he's taken out so the IRC can assume command, because he's obviously not with them. It is said Amedda was one of the first among the IRC, so he could plausibly be a Vizier, just not a Grand one, and I don't see him doing the role he did in Aftermath, since Pestage and Isard had it covered.
     
  21. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Incidentally the destruction of the Senate and the Home Fleet does explain where all the NJO-era Senators are, Bel Iblis, Brand, and warships such as the Viscount, Guardian and Harbinger in DNT and LotF and FotJ; they were destroyed.

    If we only had a handful of Senators that predated 34 ABY and TFA to hand (only Treen and Bramsin are mentioned in FotJ as serving since the Imperial Senate by that point, and we know Rodan is no longer a Senator of Commenor), then it also makes it more palatable that Daala was elevated. Perhaps.



    It’d be all the more tragic if Hosnian kills Triebakk, Releqy, and so forth.


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  22. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    So, is Mount Tantiss one of the Emperor's Observatories? I definitely got a Tantiss vibe from the observatory in Battlefront II.
     
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  23. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Honestly, even if it isn't, it is - even if there's a technical difference, they'd all fall into the same broader category of "Palpatine's Secret Repositories of Weird Stuff."
     
  24. Dr. Steve Brule

    Dr. Steve Brule Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Here's another obvious one: the Resistance is what the Insiders from the NJO end up creating. Threepio's droid spy network is also an obvious development from his NJO musings on droid rights and the reaction of droids against their treatment at the hands of the Peace Brigade.
     
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  25. blackmyron

    blackmyron Force Ghost star 6

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    Oct 29, 2005
    Finished up with Thrawn, which was rather enjoyable - especially coming from the (IMO) muddled and middle-of-the-road Aftermath series. I really don't see much of a problem incorporating this with the EU.
    I think the most interesting point was that Thrawn was never really 'exiled', but deliberately sent by the Chiss to engage with the Empire.

    The 'Insiders' - good call. In a way, they ended up getting the last word, if one looks at Mercy Kill in a certain way...
     
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